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Post by svart on Jun 21, 2024 7:41:43 GMT -6
So it's not something important in the overall scheme of things, but it's bugging me. It's bothered me in the past and I don't really know why but this time it's pretty obvious that I could have made a difference.
I have stuff/gear/knowledge that my friends KNOW I have and yet they very obviously just refuse to let me help them with things.
I have friends in bands that will TOIL for hours/days/months doing audio/video stuff that I could do in minutes.
I have gear that can make their lives super easy and save them money and they refuse my offers to borrow it and will instead spend huge amounts of money renting/buying something that they will return or sell for a loss.
I recently had a friend post something about wanting folks to come help shoot a music video. I messaged them and said I'd bring my gear to help out and they flat out refused. I asked why and they said that they already hired a director/DP and were going to rent all the gear. I inquired about the gear and why I couldn't simply loan them the gear to save them money, so they asked the director, and the director sent a list of gear they were going to rent. I literally had more than half the gear which would save them at least a thousand dollars in rentals.
They came back and said they're good and they'll just rent it anyway. They were going to rent pretty much the SAME CAMERA I have and have been extensively testing lately but they refused to borrow mine and will rent one. WTF.
And now the video is out and it LOOKS LIKE SHIT. They spent over 3K$ on the director/DP/camera/editing/rentals and it looks terrible. I honestly feel so bad for them. It's very, very obvious that they had no idea how to use the camera they rented, and I'm starting to wonder if they even rented some of the gear or if they charged "rental" for stuff they already had.
So now I don't know how to approach them because they're clearly fishing for compliments over the video from me. I really want to tell them the truth but I know it won't be taken well and might even end the friendship, but I want to break the cycle of friends/family giving insincere compliments/platitudes they feel like they must give in certain situations.
I feel like I need to say something, anything, so they aren't taken advantage of again, but I also feel like I'll just be seen as butthurt or something. I mean, I guess I kinda am, but I dunno why this is eating at me so much. It's not like I was going to make any money or get famous or anything by helping them out. I just wanted to help some friends save some money and not be taken advantage of.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 21, 2024 9:56:19 GMT -6
oof thats a rough one.
I have similar experiences though. Musician friends that just want to try doing it themselves. Which is fine I guess. I suppose I use encounters to talk about their experiance and what they are trying/wrestling with ect and then offer advice. Which in the moment they can't turn down lol Took doing that for a while before some of them started to actually just send me things or ask me to do it instead.
As for gear, I've also offered to loan gear out for projects or trials. Never gets taken up on. My theory, at least for musicians, is they just know that they either A) will break it B) Loose it C) Have it and not use it. D) don't know how to use it anyways. I mean when I come to run live sound their is constant jeering towards eachother about loosing thing XYZ or ABC. Not having the right cable ect.
So I think part of it is they just know deep down they don't/won't use it and don't want to be responsible for an expensive(potentially) piece of kit of a friends.
As for feedback. Idk that's a hard one in your situation. Most my friends ask me to get my real opinion and don't mind if I say...yeah could have been better. But if you think it'll ruin the relationship I'd ask yourself is it really worth loosing this person over?
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Post by svart on Jun 21, 2024 10:44:34 GMT -6
oof thats a rough one. I have similar experiences though. Musician friends that just want to try doing it themselves. Which is fine I guess. I suppose I use encounters to talk about their experiance and what they are trying/wrestling with ect and then offer advice. Which in the moment they can't turn down lol Took doing that for a while before some of them started to actually just send me things or ask me to do it instead. As for gear, I've also offered to loan gear out for projects or trials. Never gets taken up on. My theory, at least for musicians, is they just know that they either A) will break it B) Loose it C) Have it and not use it. D) don't know how to use it anyways. I mean when I come to run live sound their is constant jeering towards eachother about loosing thing XYZ or ABC. Not having the right cable ect. So I think part of it is they just know deep down they don't/won't use it and don't want to be responsible for an expensive(potentially) piece of kit of a friends. As for feedback. Idk that's a hard one in your situation. Most my friends ask me to get my real opinion and don't mind if I say...yeah could have been better. But if you think it'll ruin the relationship I'd ask yourself is it really worth loosing this person over? It's not worth losing friends over, that's for sure. It's just that this person seems impressionable and easy to lead and I kind of think they got taken advantage of and I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable about it all. I guess it'll pass, but I needed to vent I suppose. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 21, 2024 10:46:22 GMT -6
oof thats a rough one. I have similar experiences though. Musician friends that just want to try doing it themselves. Which is fine I guess. I suppose I use encounters to talk about their experiance and what they are trying/wrestling with ect and then offer advice. Which in the moment they can't turn down lol Took doing that for a while before some of them started to actually just send me things or ask me to do it instead. As for gear, I've also offered to loan gear out for projects or trials. Never gets taken up on. My theory, at least for musicians, is they just know that they either A) will break it B) Loose it C) Have it and not use it. D) don't know how to use it anyways. I mean when I come to run live sound their is constant jeering towards eachother about loosing thing XYZ or ABC. Not having the right cable ect. So I think part of it is they just know deep down they don't/won't use it and don't want to be responsible for an expensive(potentially) piece of kit of a friends. As for feedback. Idk that's a hard one in your situation. Most my friends ask me to get my real opinion and don't mind if I say...yeah could have been better. But if you think it'll ruin the relationship I'd ask yourself is it really worth loosing this person over? It's not worth losing friends over, that's for sure. It's just that this person seems impressionable and easy to lead and I kind of think they got taken advantage of and I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable about it all. I guess it'll pass, but I needed to vent I suppose. It sounds uncomfortable. Keep fighting the good fight and you'll break through maybe. |
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Post by christopher on Jun 30, 2024 21:32:56 GMT -6
Right now the general public is the final gold rush for AV. That made me fold up a few years back. Total newbies deciding they watched some videos and will record themselves with a $400 interface, $300 in mics, and a plugin suite.. they say it sounds “the exact same” as my stuff. Oh, they are in for a rude awakening! I experienced it when I was 23.. these guys are near 50. I’m sure some will actually take it up, so I’m always helpful. Most are not technical people. It’s been a few years now. Guess who’s been calling me lately? ☺️. It’s same with video! Shoot even I got my daughter a cheap Sony camera that looks unbelievable, YouTubers show how I could make a Netflix series! I won’t try, I’m not stupid.. but in theory … I could! Haha
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Post by EmRR on Jun 30, 2024 22:15:42 GMT -6
The logic chain of small time musicians is similar to the elderly parent, who, when given 2 good choices, bats both away and rants about an unintelligible 3rd option.
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 1, 2024 7:34:50 GMT -6
I am just getting back into trying to make a go of it with another local musician as a duo. We are both old enough (and smart enough hopefully) to know better than try to handle all the shit that needs to be done by ourselves. I can track us for the EP we want to release but refuse to mix it because I know that’s not a strong point of mine. We are paying someone else to take photos/shoot video. We need focus our energy on practice, and then playing and performing at the highest level possible.
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 1, 2024 18:17:31 GMT -6
Sometimes people just want to do things themselves. I sucked at recording when I first started, but I really wanted to learn. Wasted tons of money on gear I didn’t need or understand. But, the journey was fun and now I’m pretty good I guess. I mean, these guys are releasing stuff so hopefully they kind of don’t care if it’s not incredible, but no need to rain on their parade. Just tell them if they’re happy, you’re happy for them but always ready to help out if they want.
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Post by svart on Jul 2, 2024 6:35:14 GMT -6
Sometimes people just want to do things themselves. I sucked at recording when I first started, but I really wanted to learn. Wasted tons of money on gear I didn’t need or understand. But, the journey was fun and now I’m pretty good I guess. I mean, these guys are releasing stuff so hopefully they kind of don’t care if it’s not incredible, but no need to rain on their parade. Just tell them if they’re happy, you’re happy for them but always ready to help out if they want. I think a lot of us have been there. However, they didn't DIY, they hired a DP and director for 3K$ that gave them something that looks like a high school AV club project. I mean, I'm not sure I'd be very happy about paying that kind of money for something that could be done for free and result in the same outcome. |
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 2, 2024 7:23:14 GMT -6
Sometimes people just want to do things themselves. I sucked at recording when I first started, but I really wanted to learn. Wasted tons of money on gear I didn’t need or understand. But, the journey was fun and now I’m pretty good I guess. I mean, these guys are releasing stuff so hopefully they kind of don’t care if it’s not incredible, but no need to rain on their parade. Just tell them if they’re happy, you’re happy for them but always ready to help out if they want. I think a lot of us have been there. However, they didn't DIY, they hired a DP and director for 3K$ that gave them something that looks like a high school AV club project. I mean, I'm not sure I'd be very happy about paying that kind of money for something that could be done for free and result in the same outcome. Yeah, it’s hard to see friends waste money and expect some incredible results. I’ve seen it with friends who have a very unfinished song/arrangement but they will book the fanciest studio possible expecting to sound like their heroes. It just doesn’t work like that. |
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Post by smashlord on Jul 2, 2024 8:40:55 GMT -6
1. "Never a lender nor borrower be" - Some people have this attitude when it comes to friends and in general, its a good one. Involving money and property in friendships is a good way to ruin them.
2. Hiring friends can be tricky because if you are not happy with the job, you have to have a difficult conversation with a friend. Many people don't like that. If the friend is doing it for free, again tricky because timelines can get crazy and one can't be toooooo pushy about getting it done. Even if you are offering to do things for free, then it becomes a case of "OK, how do I show them I value their time? Is this amount going to be insulting to them and create a dark cloud over the friendship?" I know many people that just want to avoid that all together.
I've found the friends that will hire me for gigs are the ones that were originally clients and then became good friends. I've already done the job for them and they know what they are getting. There are clear boundaries.
3. Many people think our job is easy and they can figure it out themselves. I am sure I don't have to tell anyone that.... they think "what's so hard about putting a mic in front of something?". They don't understand that engineering is about one's judgement and foresight on how many disparate pieces come together in a bigger picture....both of which are developed through years of experience.
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Post by mcirish on Jul 14, 2024 14:43:30 GMT -6
I had this happen way too many times. Friends in bands want to do a recording. They get scammed by someone who says they are a "producer" and end up paying a truckload of money for a really bad recording. I try to convince them that they can just come over and knock out a song at my studio, but they still opt for the unusable route.
In this particular case, maybe I scared them away. I'm a fairly good arranger and had some ideas that could help tighten up their songs. I think they were immature as musicians, and probably as people, and felt their songs were already hits. Unfortunately, it was pretty basic garage rock with too many boring solos. Oh well.
I had to just let that one go. I have not approached them again about recording. I think they want to be DIY now anyway.
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Post by bowie on Jul 14, 2024 15:53:05 GMT -6
I used to really struggle with this until I looked at myself and decided to change. Those of us who feel compelled to be helpful in this world sometimes to fall into the trap of taking over a project. We see what we think is best and tell people how to reach our vision of success. After all, we have the experience and research and it's so much easier if we just do it. But, I realized they didn't want it to become my project. For me, not trying to take over and just letting them know what the options are and how I think each one would turn out dramatically changed how people respond to me, personally and professionally. I'm frequently being asked to help whereas before I found myself saying "let me help you" far too often.
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Post by Ward on Aug 5, 2024 10:37:14 GMT -6
I used to really struggle with this until I looked at myself and decided to change. Those of us who feel compelled to be helpful in this world sometimes to fall into the trap of taking over a project. We see what we think is best and tell people how to reach our vision of success. After all, we have the experience and research and it's so much easier if we just do it. But, I realized they didn't want it to become my project. For me, not trying to take over and just letting them know what the options are and how I think each one would turn out dramatically changed how people respond to me, personally and professionally. I'm frequently being asked to help whereas before I found myself saying "let me help you" far too often. This is so me. My Achilles heal, so to speak. Pulling back was a very hard lesson and technique to learn. |
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Post by skav on Aug 10, 2024 4:37:30 GMT -6
Sometimes they might aim for something different than what the adviser represents. Sonics or anything really.
Sometimes people believe they can do it better, and are willing to fail trying.
I understand your frustration very much, I have known it too, also in other areas of life. We have to learn accept the reality. Next time consider hold back on giving advice so you don't 'invest youself'.
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Post by linas on Aug 21, 2024 12:26:22 GMT -6
I used to really struggle with this until I looked at myself and decided to change. Those of us who feel compelled to be helpful in this world sometimes to fall into the trap of taking over a project. We see what we think is best and tell people how to reach our vision of success. After all, we have the experience and research and it's so much easier if we just do it. But, I realized they didn't want it to become my project. For me, not trying to take over and just letting them know what the options are and how I think each one would turn out dramatically changed how people respond to me, personally and professionally. I'm frequently being asked to help whereas before I found myself saying "let me help you" far too often. Brilliant!!! |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 28, 2024 13:22:05 GMT -6
The logic chain of small time musicians is similar to the elderly parent, who, when given 2 good choices, bats both away and rants about an unintelligible 3rd option. And Teenager too.  |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 5, 2024 18:03:30 GMT -6
So it's not something important in the overall scheme of things, but it's bugging me. It's bothered me in the past and I don't really know why but this time it's pretty obvious that I could have made a difference. I have stuff/gear/knowledge that my friends KNOW I have and yet they very obviously just refuse to let me help them with things. I have friends in bands that will TOIL for hours/days/months doing audio/video stuff that I could do in minutes. I have gear that can make their lives super easy and save them money and they refuse my offers to borrow it and will instead spend huge amounts of money renting/buying something that they will return or sell for a loss. I recently had a friend post something about wanting folks to come help shoot a music video. I messaged them and said I'd bring my gear to help out and they flat out refused. I asked why and they said that they already hired a director/DP and were going to rent all the gear. I inquired about the gear and why I couldn't simply loan them the gear to save them money, so they asked the director, and the director sent a list of gear they were going to rent. I literally had more than half the gear which would save them at least a thousand dollars in rentals. They came back and said they're good and they'll just rent it anyway. They were going to rent pretty much the SAME CAMERA I have and have been extensively testing lately but they refused to borrow mine and will rent one. WTF. And now the video is out and it LOOKS LIKE SHIT. They spent over 3K$ on the director/DP/camera/editing/rentals and it looks terrible. I honestly feel so bad for them. It's very, very obvious that they had no idea how to use the camera they rented, and I'm starting to wonder if they even rented some of the gear or if they charged "rental" for stuff they already had. So now I don't know how to approach them because they're clearly fishing for compliments over the video from me. I really want to tell them the truth but I know it won't be taken well and might even end the friendship, but I want to break the cycle of friends/family giving insincere compliments/platitudes they feel like they must give in certain situations. I feel like I need to say something, anything, so they aren't taken advantage of again, but I also feel like I'll just be seen as butthurt or something. I mean, I guess I kinda am, but I dunno why this is eating at me so much. It's not like I was going to make any money or get famous or anything by helping them out. I just wanted to help some friends save some money and not be taken advantage of. You can’t always save people from themselves. I knew a music duo who spent around $50k AUD ($30k USD) on a music video that went nowhere. They travelled to Tasmania from mainland Australia and hired a video production company who specialised in corporate videos (not music videos). Ferry tickets, airline tickets, B&B hire, car rental hire, pro photographer hire, fancy meals and catering. They even paid for a hair and makeup artist to travel with them. Five day shoot at various remote locations include a stuntman and the male half of the duo started arguing with the director over technical stuff he had no clue about which kept causing delays and screwed up the schedule. They literally could have made something at home with a green screen for a fraction of the money they spent which is what I suggested in the first place and I offered to help them shoot it including supplying the lighting gear etc but in the end his ego got the better of him and he seemed to think they had a world class hit on their hands that only needed a killer video. All in all it would have made a great mockumentary that probably would have got some attention due to the ridiculousness of it all. |
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Post by svart on Sept 6, 2024 7:55:02 GMT -6
So it's not something important in the overall scheme of things, but it's bugging me. It's bothered me in the past and I don't really know why but this time it's pretty obvious that I could have made a difference. I have stuff/gear/knowledge that my friends KNOW I have and yet they very obviously just refuse to let me help them with things. I have friends in bands that will TOIL for hours/days/months doing audio/video stuff that I could do in minutes. I have gear that can make their lives super easy and save them money and they refuse my offers to borrow it and will instead spend huge amounts of money renting/buying something that they will return or sell for a loss. I recently had a friend post something about wanting folks to come help shoot a music video. I messaged them and said I'd bring my gear to help out and they flat out refused. I asked why and they said that they already hired a director/DP and were going to rent all the gear. I inquired about the gear and why I couldn't simply loan them the gear to save them money, so they asked the director, and the director sent a list of gear they were going to rent. I literally had more than half the gear which would save them at least a thousand dollars in rentals. They came back and said they're good and they'll just rent it anyway. They were going to rent pretty much the SAME CAMERA I have and have been extensively testing lately but they refused to borrow mine and will rent one. WTF. And now the video is out and it LOOKS LIKE SHIT. They spent over 3K$ on the director/DP/camera/editing/rentals and it looks terrible. I honestly feel so bad for them. It's very, very obvious that they had no idea how to use the camera they rented, and I'm starting to wonder if they even rented some of the gear or if they charged "rental" for stuff they already had. So now I don't know how to approach them because they're clearly fishing for compliments over the video from me. I really want to tell them the truth but I know it won't be taken well and might even end the friendship, but I want to break the cycle of friends/family giving insincere compliments/platitudes they feel like they must give in certain situations. I feel like I need to say something, anything, so they aren't taken advantage of again, but I also feel like I'll just be seen as butthurt or something. I mean, I guess I kinda am, but I dunno why this is eating at me so much. It's not like I was going to make any money or get famous or anything by helping them out. I just wanted to help some friends save some money and not be taken advantage of. You can’t always save people from themselves. I knew a music duo who spent around $50k AUD ($30k USD) on a music video that went nowhere. They travelled to Tasmania from mainland Australia and hired a video production company who specialised in corporate videos (not music videos). Ferry tickets, airline tickets, B&B hire, car rental hire, pro photographer hire, fancy meals and catering. They even paid for a hair and makeup artist to travel with them. Five day shoot at various remote locations include a stuntman and the male half of the duo started arguing with the director over technical stuff he had no clue about which kept causing delays and screwed up the schedule. They literally could have made something at home with a green screen for a fraction of the money they spent which is what I suggested in the first place and I offered to help them shoot it including supplying the lighting gear etc but in the end his ego got the better of him and he seemed to think they had a world class hit on their hands that only needed a killer video. All in all it would have made a great mockumentary that probably would have got some attention due to the ridiculousness of it all. Wow, yeah that takes the cake. But I guess the ego that wanted to spend 50K on a video is also the ego that wanted to direct the director. |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 6, 2024 13:46:56 GMT -6
You can’t always save people from themselves. I knew a music duo who spent around $50k AUD ($30k USD) on a music video that went nowhere. They travelled to Tasmania from mainland Australia and hired a video production company who specialised in corporate videos (not music videos). Ferry tickets, airline tickets, B&B hire, car rental hire, pro photographer hire, fancy meals and catering. They even paid for a hair and makeup artist to travel with them. Five day shoot at various remote locations include a stuntman and the male half of the duo started arguing with the director over technical stuff he had no clue about which kept causing delays and screwed up the schedule. They literally could have made something at home with a green screen for a fraction of the money they spent which is what I suggested in the first place and I offered to help them shoot it including supplying the lighting gear etc but in the end his ego got the better of him and he seemed to think they had a world class hit on their hands that only needed a killer video. All in all it would have made a great mockumentary that probably would have got some attention due to the ridiculousness of it all. Wow, yeah that takes the cake. But I guess the ego that wanted to spend 50K on a video is also the ego that wanted to direct the director. I just checked and the video still exists on YT. 😵💫 |
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Post by hadaja on Sept 6, 2024 14:12:17 GMT -6
Whats the link....cmon.....
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Post by rowmat on Sept 6, 2024 14:41:58 GMT -6
Whats the link....cmon..... Are you sure you want to see it/hear it? I’ve probably hi-jacked this thread enough already. Maybe get Svart to post the crappy video he mentioned first unless he wants to see it for ‘shits and giggles’? 🤭 It’s Apocalyptic Techno with a heavy dose of cliche’. I’m surprised it’s still up after 10 years. My contribution was a burning book scene shot on a LUMIX GH2 outside at night and as an extra. Because the shooting schedule got screwed due to ongoing arguments with the director about 25% ended up being stock footage. Most of the location footage was shot in a quarry outside of Hobart, in a warehouse, a swamp full of reeds and a junkyard. Basically it was a lesson in how to burn through $50k for zero result by thinking the video was going to somehow ‘make’ the song. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 7, 2024 11:16:45 GMT -6
Gee do we REALLY want to see this Mt. Rushmore of train wrecks? Hmm... I wonder. Chris P.S. A best "worst" Video thread would be fun! |
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Post by frans on Sept 10, 2024 1:58:03 GMT -6
Please. Post that video. You know, when i should do some work that i don't want to do that much i need something to watch so i can avoid the job i should be doing...
Also, a memo to myself: offering unwanted help gives bad karma. Some people want to experience the crash ... and not the rescue.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2024 20:30:59 GMT -6
Damn…I should really read the off topic board more than twice a year…
I’ve had so many backstabs and being taken advantage of, etc…I’ve learned to protect myself. You can’t help everybody. You guys have probably heard me talk about losing a job because I didn’t have a tat sleeve. But that actually comes from really getting my feelings hurt. There was an artist that I wrote a bunch of songs with and she got a deal…had three songs on it…it was just about to come out…label folds. FF a couple years…she’s doing a new duo thing and they call me and tell me how they want to do the record with me, blah blah…I work up a proposal and get ghosted. I see on Insta a couple weeks later her in a booth taking a pick with her new producer: with a tat sleeve. Sounds silly, but it really hurt my feelings - so I can def relate to the OP. Sometimes you just gotta eat shit
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