hoot
Junior Member
Posts: 68
|
Post by hoot on May 24, 2024 21:58:06 GMT -6
I notice that there's an abnormal amount of static coming from my vocal aux last week. I'm running some hardware inserts and aggressively paralleling that with more outboard, so a little noise was always part of the game but this was causing me to legitimately sweat. After 10 minutes of FRANTIC troubleshooting ("PLEASE, lord, don't say I'm hiring a tech or sending my Stam back to SOUTH AMERICA for a fix!"), I decided to start from the bottom and muted a bunch of "plug-in only" tracks... the noise stopped... And yeah... I already readjusted vocal gain-staging across the session and spun a bunch of knobs on the compressor and preceding EQ chasing this crap... laugh it up boys that'll sure-as-sh** never happen again!   I had JUST swapped the Pro-Q in my template for an AMEK 200 EQ that apparently instantiated with a noise floor high enough to scare the living shit out of me when combined across 10-15 tracks feeding a bunch of parallel processing! A friend directed me to the V-Gain knob and my problem was solved, but um... really?! I'm laughing now, but I really gotta scratch my head on this one! I understand wanting something like an Old Beatles-esque tubey mojo compressor to be instantiated with some intentional noise, but Amek 200 is the kind of EQ you grab when a light goes off in your head for a "whistle-clean mastering-grade EQ." I'm all for it being an under-the-hood option, but "on" by default...? I guess I'm saying that, to me, these battles about what "real enough" is could be picked more than signing "go-to CLEAN" processors up for a noise floor but what do I know? |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 24, 2024 22:11:01 GMT -6
Happens all the time…usually a damn waves plug.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on May 24, 2024 23:12:19 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! |
|
|
|
Post by andersmv on May 25, 2024 5:55:05 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! PluginDoctor is a hell of a drug… 😂 |
|
|
|
Post by phdamage on May 25, 2024 6:16:50 GMT -6
Yeah, I find noise from plugs every once in a while that I need to automate out. Soundtoys Radiator is often a culprit but sometimes it’s something odd like l’otary. However, these days it’s often my Standard Audio stretch hardware - that thing is noisy especially on a kick drum that’s loud as hell.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on May 25, 2024 6:41:25 GMT -6
Man, that happened so many times. I know now to check all Waves plugins that have an analog knob. Usual culprit it H-Delay.
The other night I was finishing a mix and thought my new speakers were awfully hissy. I was bummed. I shut off the speaker feed from the monitor controller and it was silent. Finally traced it to Tape Echoes by softube. Wow that was a lot of noise. Unfortunately, it also changes the sound of the plugging. Getting rid of the noise makes the echoes too bright. Guess I will be using a different tape echo now.
|
|
|
|
Post by FM77 on May 25, 2024 6:52:37 GMT -6
I can only speak for myself. I don't find much use for or musicality in the 'noise/hiss' function that is often added in as a feature in plugin emulations. The noise does not sound like a byproduct of the electronics, it does not sound integrated into the source but rather it sounds like a clean source with noise 'on top of' it or a parallel hiss next to the source.
I use enough 80s gear that is very noisy by today's standards. I listen to alot of cassettes and original release CDs. The noise is different. The whole bathwater is dirty, not just a layer of dirt floating on top.
|
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on May 25, 2024 8:06:33 GMT -6
I understand why the plugin manufacturers put "noise" in the plugin - they modeled the real stuff and it had noise too. ok, but nobody really wants that noise do they? (ok, I know some will argue it is part of the sound - I still have no use for it). it was just "there" as part of the current technology of that time. anyway, had similar experiences with Waves, Slate Digital, UAD, and others. I think UAD (in the tape emus) is about the only one that calls it what it is - noise. Instead it's "analog" or "v-gain" or something nondescript that makes you pull your hair out until you find it and stop the annoying hiss. At least many of the plugin manufacturers have defaulted to having it off now, but watch out for those presets.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on May 25, 2024 11:31:34 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! That’s a bummer Dr. Bill. I was following along on those threads at GS where someone would be complaining about noise and how one of them had noise from a completely different VST. You and Brad deserve better for such an awesome product. |
|
|
|
Post by vvvooojjj on May 25, 2024 12:06:36 GMT -6
There should always be the possibility to turn off the noise.
|
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on May 25, 2024 12:14:20 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! That’s a bummer Dr. Bill. I was following along on those threads at GS where someone would be complaining about noise and how one of them had noise from a completely different VST. You and Brad deserve better for such an awesome product. Best plugin. Love it. No noise issues. |
|
|
|
Post by Darren Boling on May 25, 2024 14:32:18 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! That’s a bummer Dr. Bill. I was following along on those threads at GS where someone would be complaining about noise and how one of them had noise from a completely different VST. You and Brad deserve better for such an awesome product. That whole part of the SB thread was really frustrating from just a basic engineering standpoint. I remember one in particular when pressed admitted they were coming in at something like -40 dB then boosting everything full in the SB plugin and following it with another saturator boosting like crazy (and my memory is sketchy here but I think it the end it was mostly the other plugin adding noise). I get it that people want advancements in the plugin version of HW emulations but some out there just want to make unnecessary problems for who knows what reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2024 16:50:33 GMT -6
Why does that shit happen over there? It’s just so testy.
|
|
|
|
Post by FM77 on May 25, 2024 17:09:15 GMT -6
Why does that shit happen over there? It’s just so testy. 20 years ago, it was a fantastic, killer community of close knit and civil professionals. It was alot of fun.
Today the Mastering Forum is the only semblance of civility. As for the rest, speaking only for myself, I find it to be a genuine cesspool and I don't give it a minute of my life.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 25, 2024 17:21:30 GMT -6
Sometimes people do weird gain staging with plugins that they would never do with hardware. The SBmkII was a good example. With 50+ plugs at nominal gain - faders @ "0" - normal mastering presets, my noise floor was below -80dB. But people swore all over the place that the noise in the plugin made it unusable. Very few if any would post a screenshot of their GUI settings. I think a lot of the complaints of noise is the metering in DAWS and being able to "see" noise instead of hear it. Sounds like hoot had/has a legit noise problem, but there is so much over the top complaining about "noise" now that we have totally silent workplaces, that it makes virtually no sense to me. Ultimately LTL has spent a lot of $$$$$ to go back in and remove all the "noise" that exists in the actual hardware that got modeled into the plugin. Silly IMO. Coming from a tape upbringing in the studio, we learned how to find, deal with and pretty much kill noise. Gain staging seems to be a lost art form. None of the dozen grammy and #1 winning engineers / producers that beta tested had any noise problems. But once it hits the interwebz........Look Out!!!! Haha! I like the noise in tape plugs (not the metric halo thing lol)… it adds a roughness to the sound my clients dig. I just gate the tracks strip out the noise on silence with Oxford Dynamics with a release like a fade and a long hold. Of course if you cannot gainstage, lol. I have everything gainstaged carefully and gate so there’s no built up noise on silence. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 25, 2024 17:26:52 GMT -6
Why does that shit happen over there? It’s just so testy. I have no idea dude. Ersatz of 25 year old digital hardware that ran on the same chips as tdm and ports of tdm plugs are the best things ever now according to gearspace now like they never used drastic distortion things like an 1176 or decapitator or subtle ones like the fuse plugs hit lightly or sdrr2 desk or cleanish tube gear. Why can’t they just use it like you’re supposed to? I remember I figured out the A setting has a super cool non-linear point where it sounds bigger and better before it hard clips and grits up and Brad confirmed that’s intentional. N I was subtle and warm. Hit it hottish but not too hot but not clipped or not at all. It was… like a Neve whatever vaguely and about as good as the Softube, maybe smoother but less flexible but not magic like A was. Hitmaker was like the A but grittier with a wider sweet spot. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 25, 2024 17:35:37 GMT -6
Why does that shit happen over there? It’s just so testy. 20 years ago, it was a fantastic, killer community of close knit and civil professionals. It was alot of fun.
Today the Mastering Forum is the only semblance of civility. As for the rest, speaking only for myself, I find it to be a genuine cesspool and I don't give it a minute of my life.
mastering, remote recording, and music computers are good. Music computers is serious but sometimes veers off into the lofi and not in a cool way apologizing |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 25, 2024 18:07:10 GMT -6
at this stage in software development, plugins should NOT produce hiss, hiss should be able to be eliminated from source signal without causing any issue, and there should be a host of decent plugs available that do all those things.
1994 was 30 years ago, and it seems like nobody is bothering to address this as just a job that needs to be done. The one thing they could do to make digital outdo analog.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 25, 2024 18:25:28 GMT -6
at this stage in software development, plugins should NOT produce hiss, hiss should be able to be eliminated from source signal without causing any issue, and there should be a host of decent plugs available that do all those things. 1994 was 30 years ago, and it seems like nobody is bothering to address this as just a job that needs to be done. The one thing they could do to make digital outdo analog. they do, people just don’t want to learn to use the ones that do or want distortion that’s not exactly the same digitally. Something like an 1176 cannot really work digitally when written out as a circuit model. Most of the crazy development has been in amp sims, dynamic processors, and vsti synths |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 25, 2024 18:28:20 GMT -6
at this stage in software development, plugins should NOT produce hiss, hiss should be able to be eliminated from source signal without causing any issue, and there should be a host of decent plugs available that do all those things. 1994 was 30 years ago, and it seems like nobody is bothering to address this as just a job that needs to be done. The one thing they could do to make digital outdo analog. they do, people just don’t want to learn to use the ones that do or want distortion that’s not exactly the same digitally. Something like an 1176 cannot really work digitally when written out as a circuit model. Most of the crazy development has been in amp sims, dynamic processors, and vsti synths I'm tired of plugs adding hiss and noise, so point me to some grown-up stuff. Pretty please |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on May 25, 2024 21:16:58 GMT -6
at this stage in software development, plugins should NOT produce hiss, hiss should be able to be eliminated from source signal without causing any issue, and there should be a host of decent plugs available that do all those things. So you don't want a 1:1 equivalent to the hardware? Cause we got it way closer than I was really comfortable with - with the noise included - and to my knowledge we have never had a single complaint about noise in the hardware. LOL It's not a 100% true 1:1, but closer than 98% of the other plugs I've used. And all analog electronics have noise - but the AMOUNT of noise in the SBmkII is negligible for anyone who knows how to even remotely gain stage. (Again, I had 50+ instantiations, and I had to open my monitors wide open to hear anything.) So......eliminate noise, and you only have a "inspired by", not a "clone"cause virtually all electronic components have a traceable amount of noise. And since they do, noise makes a difference in the sonics. Take it out, and what you get is not the original. You can almost think of it like dither - it improves the digital sound. I know, I know, probably arguable. At any rate, the upcoming update will have the option for no noise, extremely minimal noise, and the initial release amount of noise - i.e. what the hardware has. Last time I asked, Brad prefers the noise version. PS -=- a special thank you to all who use and praise the plugin and had kind words. We're appreciative. Still not making any money over the development costs due to "business life", but hopefully soon...... PPS - and BTW hoot - sorry for derailing your thread.  |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on May 25, 2024 21:29:55 GMT -6
I was following along on those threads at GS where someone would be complaining about noise and how one of them had noise from a completely different VST. Best plugin. Love it. No noise issues. That whole part of the SB thread was really frustrating from just a basic engineering standpoint. I remember one in particular when pressed admitted they were coming in at something like -40 dB then boosting everything full in the SB plugin and following it with another saturator boosting like crazy (and my memory is sketchy here but I think it the end it was mostly the other plugin adding noise). I get it that people want advancements in the plugin version of HW emulations but some out there just want to make unnecessary problems for who knows what reasons. Yup. The vast majority of real issues came from either other plugins in the chain, or from seriously incompetent lack of engineering skills from newbs who had never (or rarely) ever seen hardware. There were a few instances of really creative engineering approaches (I could count them on one hand and have fingers left over) where they couldn't get the "tone" with normal gain staging, and those were legit - and those will have the no noise option in the future. Ward will have no excuse other than to employ the next version of the plugin!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 25, 2024 22:34:15 GMT -6
they do, people just don’t want to learn to use the ones that do or want distortion that’s not exactly the same digitally. Something like an 1176 cannot really work digitally when written out as a circuit model. Most of the crazy development has been in amp sims, dynamic processors, and vsti synths I'm tired of plugs adding hiss and noise, so point me to some grown-up stuff. Pretty please the entire tdr, sound radix, and softube Weiss bundles are great at what they do when you figure out how to use them. I’m enamored with the later softube amp sims and mercurial spark right now. I’ve used Marshalls worse than them. People don’t know how to use the complex stuff or even know how to use an la2a, dbx 160, or set the master volume knob on a Marshall. They’re hopeless man. drbill is right. If they cannot use an la2a, how do you expect them to use a tape machine, a real amp where the sims 95% there have less noise, or the Weiss ds1? They’re using multiband garbage now man with no idea how to set it up without wrecking the harmonic structure to sound like fm. |
|
|
|
Post by vvvooojjj on May 26, 2024 3:01:29 GMT -6
they do, people just don’t want to learn to use the ones that do or want distortion that’s not exactly the same digitally. Something like an 1176 cannot really work digitally when written out as a circuit model. Most of the crazy development has been in amp sims, dynamic processors, and vsti synths I'm tired of plugs adding hiss and noise, so point me to some grown-up stuff. Pretty please Maybe some developers just don't want to sell as much plugins as possible. |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 26, 2024 8:19:36 GMT -6
at this stage in software development, plugins should NOT produce hiss, hiss should be able to be eliminated from source signal without causing any issue, and there should be a host of decent plugs available that do all those things. So you don't want a 1:1 equivalent to the hardware? Cause we got it way closer than I was really comfortable with - with the noise included - and to my knowledge we have never had a single complaint about noise in the hardware. LOL It's not a 100% true 1:1, but closer than 98% of the other plugs I've used. And all analog electronics have noise - but the AMOUNT of noise in the SBmkII is negligible for anyone who knows how to even remotely gain stage. (Again, I had 50+ instantiations, and I had to open my monitors wide open to hear anything.) So......eliminate noise, and you only have a "inspired by", not a "clone"cause virtually all electronic components have a traceable amount of noise. And since they do, noise makes a difference in the sonics. Take it out, and what you get is not the original. You can almost think of it like dither - it improves the digital sound. I know, I know, probably arguable. At any rate, the upcoming update will have the option for no noise, extremely minimal noise, and the initial release amount of noise - i.e. what the hardware has. Last time I asked, Brad prefers the noise version. PS -=- a special thank you to all who use and praise the plugin and had kind words. We're appreciative. Still not making any money over the development costs due to "business life", but hopefully soon...... PPS - and BTW hoot - sorry for derailing your thread. You know, I'd be happy having options. |
|
