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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 11, 2024 10:27:22 GMT -6
I've meant to post this when it has happened before, but always forgot...This is confirmation - at least to me - of the value of this thing. (BTW - I know I sound like a shill for these guys...but I have zero relationship with them other than paying $5k for this and then they promptly came out with a new version a year later lol.)
I'm mixing along...getting to a place I feel pretty comfortable with the mix - then I realize I've had my Trinnov bypassed the whole damn time. Flip it on and the mix sounds like utter shit. I wish I had burnt down a mix because it would be kind've cool to see if the problem areas in the mix correspond with the dips in my room. E.g. - if I have a -8db dip at 100Hz, we should hear much louder 100Hz (bass) because I would've pushed the bass to hear it in the room. etc, etc. Next time this happens, I'll do that. Would be an honest "before and after" with and without the Trinnov.
I guess I'm just posting to say that when this happens, I really realize the value of this thing.
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Post by svart on Apr 11, 2024 11:13:58 GMT -6
I'd love to hear the difference in a mix done with it, and one without it. I posit that one of a couple things might be true:
It's nowhere near as different as you hear, mostly because you expect to hear a difference.
It's vastly different, but not necessarily better or worse.
It's vastly better.
It's actually a lot worse.
Would be an interesting poll topic to have a mix with and then done without and have people judge whether or not they find any of these apply.
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Post by ericn on Apr 11, 2024 11:26:37 GMT -6
Funny enough in most of the pro and consumer world the biggest complaint about room correction seams to be the implementation and how easy it is to forget to turn it on or bypass. Like you though most seam to find it’s a great way to reinforce the value of their investment.
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Post by FM77 on Apr 11, 2024 11:37:41 GMT -6
I've meant to post this when it has happened before, but always forgot...This is confirmation - at least to me - of the value of this thing. (BTW - I know I sound like a shill for these guys...but I have zero relationship with them other than paying $5k for this and then they promptly came out with a new version a year later lol.) I'm mixing along...getting to a place I feel pretty comfortable with the mix - then I realize I've had my Trinnov bypassed the whole damn time. Flip it on and the mix sounds like utter shit. I wish I had burnt down a mix because it would be kind've cool to see if the problem areas in the mix correspond with the dips in my room. E.g. - if I have a -8db dip at 100Hz, we should hear much louder 100Hz (bass) because I would've pushed the bass to hear it in the room. etc, etc. Next time this happens, I'll do that. Would be an honest "before and after" with and without the Trinnov. I guess I'm just posting to say that when this happens, I really realize the value of this thing. I don't quite understand this. Can you post a pic of the room curve?
'Utter shit' sounds really bad to me. Like unusable. But maybe you are just referring to details? I would assume the mix would still be 'pretty dang good' and then the Trinnov giving you the last bit of clarity. ( How much correction is happening? ) I guess that is my question. My room is not great. It is small, my speakers are large, I mix very close, but I know it pretty well. But even without room correction, mixes translate. They seem to be doing better with the low end null and mid range bumps managed.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 11, 2024 12:02:23 GMT -6
The Trinnov sounds very useful …. If it helps your mixes translate. My Trinnov is called ATC 25’s  Ok joking aside, the point is since getting my ATC’s my mixes translate from iPhone to PA’s perfectly. They are 100% predictable (my room has been treated by GIK) what I hear is what I’ve got - and it always translates perfectly, never ever any surprises. If a Trinnov can achieve that it must be a fantastic unit. . |
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Post by mcirish on Apr 12, 2024 6:23:09 GMT -6
The Trinnov sounds very useful …. If it helps your mixes translate. My Trinnov is called ATC 25’s Ok joking aside, the point is since getting my ATC’s my mixes translate from iPhone to PA’s perfectly. They are 100% predictable (my room has been treated by GIK) what I hear is what I’ve got - and it always translates perfectly, never ever any surprises. If a Trinnov can achieve that it must be a fantastic unit. . Have you ever done sweep tests on your room with something like REW? I'm very envious of anyone who can get their room sounding good without any correction EQ. |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 12, 2024 9:18:38 GMT -6
The Trinnov sounds very useful …. If it helps your mixes translate. My Trinnov is called ATC 25’s Ok joking aside, the point is since getting my ATC’s my mixes translate from iPhone to PA’s perfectly. They are 100% predictable (my room has been treated by GIK) what I hear is what I’ve got - and it always translates perfectly, never ever any surprises. If a Trinnov can achieve that it must be a fantastic unit. . Have you ever done sweep tests on your room with something like REW? I'm very envious of anyone who can get their room sounding good without any correction EQ. Translation is the goal of any monitoring system, any engineer. Results are all that count to me. If I had any issues with mixes translating to the outside world I'd be running sweep tests - I'd be investing in a room correction system - whatever was needed. I spent my money on GIK treating my room, a Cranesong Avocet monitor controller, ATC 25's plus a large dollop of 40 years of experience :-) I don't have any translation issues whatsoever and therefore to answer your question - no I haven't had the need to run sweep tests. Though to be clear, I'm absolutely not knocking room EQ systems or other brands of monitoring systems - whatever works for other people is to be respected - no question. |
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Post by FM77 on Apr 12, 2024 12:19:54 GMT -6
Have you ever done sweep tests on your room with something like REW? I'm very envious of anyone who can get their room sounding good without any correction EQ. Translation is the goal of any monitoring system, any engineer. Results are all that count to me. If I had any issues with mixes translating to the outside world I'd be running sweep tests - I'd be investing in a room correction system - whatever was needed. I spent my money on GIK treating my room, a Cranesong Avocet monitor controller, ATC 25's plus a large dollop of 40 years of experience :-) I don't have any translation issues whatsoever and therefore to answer your question - no I haven't had the need to run sweep tests. Though to be clear, I'm absolutely not knocking room EQ systems or other brands of monitoring systems - whatever works for other people is to be respected - no question. You might be surprised at what you aren't hearing. Same as you, not knocking anybody's process.
A room read/sweep is a basic process for any room, no matter how happy you are with your mixes. The fact you didn't sweep your room prior to room correction means you treated low-end and broadband a bit randomly without knowing what the isolated issues were.
I am sure it helped, it usually does.
I currently have 23 panels from Glenn in my small room (and 3 clouds). They help, but certainly can't change the room dimensions and no amount of treatment can cure this 6dB bump at 140Hz - 200Hz or the 10 Db bump at 50Hz, and 6Db null at 100 Hz. Not in my room as it is today. The rest is basically flat. ARC has helped.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 13, 2024 2:58:00 GMT -6
Translation is the goal of any monitoring system, any engineer. Results are all that count to me. If I had any issues with mixes translating to the outside world I'd be running sweep tests - I'd be investing in a room correction system - whatever was needed. I spent my money on GIK treating my room, a Cranesong Avocet monitor controller, ATC 25's plus a large dollop of 40 years of experience :-) I don't have any translation issues whatsoever and therefore to answer your question - no I haven't had the need to run sweep tests. Though to be clear, I'm absolutely not knocking room EQ systems or other brands of monitoring systems - whatever works for other people is to be respected - no question. You might be surprised at what you aren't hearing. Same as you, not knocking anybody's process.
A room read/sweep is a basic process for any room, no matter how happy you are with your mixes. The fact you didn't sweep your room prior to room correction means you treated low-end and broadband a bit randomly without knowing what the isolated issues were.
I am sure it helped, it usually does.
I currently have 23 panels from Glenn in my small room (and 3 clouds). They help, but certainly can't change the room dimensions and no amount of treatment can cure this 6dB bump at 140Hz - 200Hz or the 10 Db bump at 50Hz, and 6Db null at 100 Hz. Not in my room as it is today. The rest is basically flat. ARC has helped.
The GIK treatment (£3K worth) was obviously highly effective! As I said my mixes translate to the outside world absolutely perfectly - there’s nothing I ever want to change about a mix hearing it on any other system. Rule one, if it ain’t broke …. don’t fix it But I do appreciate what you’re saying, I simply don’t have a scientific approach to my music making. I’m literally this formula …. “ears and results” As long as they match up perfectly, I’m happy Old school you might say |
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Post by vvvooojjj on Apr 13, 2024 11:59:52 GMT -6
Speakers + GIK treatment + DA = over £10k. "No problem"
Measurement microphone + REW = £40 And few hours of measuring. "Can't do it"
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2024 16:17:52 GMT -6
If Al Schmidt, Vance Powell, Serbhan Genea, Eric Valentine or Ryan Hewitt mixed something in my room without the Trinnov, it would have the same issues I had with it. The greatest ears in the world can’t overcome a -10 db dip at 90Hz. Now - you could learn to unnaturally crank the bass for every mix…but this “mixing wrong to be right” shit is for the birds.
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 17:48:58 GMT -6
If Al Schmidt, Vance Powell, Serbhan Genea, Eric Valentine or Ryan Hewitt mixed something in my room without the Trinnov, it would have the same issues I had with it. The greatest ears in the world can’t overcome a -10 db dip at 90Hz. Now - you could learn to unnaturally crank the bass for every mix…but this “mixing wrong to be right” shit is for the birds. Yeah but freelancers have been doing it for years! Your Trinnov adventure has me looking at the Mini DSP / Dirac options almost daily. Damn you Mister Kennedy 😁 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2024 19:13:45 GMT -6
If Al Schmidt, Vance Powell, Serbhan Genea, Eric Valentine or Ryan Hewitt mixed something in my room without the Trinnov, it would have the same issues I had with it. The greatest ears in the world can’t overcome a -10 db dip at 90Hz. Now - you could learn to unnaturally crank the bass for every mix…but this “mixing wrong to be right” shit is for the birds. Yeah but freelancers have been doing it for years! Your Trinnov adventure has me looking at the Mini DSP / Dirac options almost daily. Damn you Mister Kennedy 😁 But I bet they wish they had room correction. Because we all know when you’re in a different room for the first time, you’re kinda flying blind. You can ONLY mix to what your ears tell you is correct…so, if the room is quirky - there’s no way to know that. So that first mix might be all over the place when you check it outside the room. I get that people have been doing this for years…but why if you don’t have to? |
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 19:56:49 GMT -6
Yeah but freelancers have been doing it for years! Your Trinnov adventure has me looking at the Mini DSP / Dirac options almost daily. Damn you Mister Kennedy 😁 But I bet they wish they had room correction. Because we all know when you’re in a different room for the first time, you’re kinda flying blind. You can ONLY mix to what your ears tell you is correct…so, if the room is quirky - there’s no way to know that. So that first mix might be all over the place when you check it outside the room. I get that people have been doing this for years…but why if you don’t have to? It would have been great, instead it was play a couple of songs you knew well maybe take a look and listen to some pink noise with an RTA. Bring your own near fields was a first step, the hard part as I’m sure you realize is bringing your own room correction and making it simple to plug and play, but things are as improving and rooms are getting worse. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2024 20:08:58 GMT -6
Bring your own near fields was a first step I never used to do an outside session without bringing LSR28P's. What a PITA. Especially when I was mixing in 5.1. But it was worth it. I could sus things out pronto when bringing my own "near" (more like mid) fields. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2024 20:16:43 GMT -6
But I bet they wish they had room correction. Because we all know when you’re in a different room for the first time, you’re kinda flying blind. You can ONLY mix to what your ears tell you is correct…so, if the room is quirky - there’s no way to know that. So that first mix might be all over the place when you check it outside the room. I get that people have been doing this for years…but why if you don’t have to? It would have been great, instead it was play a couple of songs you knew well maybe take a look and listen to some pink noise with an RTA. Bring your own near fields was a first step, the hard part as I’m sure you realize is bringing your own room correction and making it simple to plug and play, but things are as improving and rooms are getting worse. The Trinnov profile process only takes about 5 minutes…so you could bring a nova with you and shoot the room. |
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:32:23 GMT -6
It would have been great, instead it was play a couple of songs you knew well maybe take a look and listen to some pink noise with an RTA. Bring your own near fields was a first step, the hard part as I’m sure you realize is bringing your own room correction and making it simple to plug and play, but things are as improving and rooms are getting worse. The Trinnov profile process only takes about 5 minutes…so you could bring a nova with you and shoot the room. I Know, John but I was thinking more of bringing the unit patching. When I found the porta brace soft case that fit Genelec 1030’s like a glove I sold twice as many. Even with Dirac guys don’t want the extra box and the flex is a 1/2 rack. |
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2024 20:35:08 GMT -6
Bring your own near fields was a first step I never used to do an outside session without bringing LSR28P's. What a PITA. Especially when I was mixing in 5.1. But it was worth it. I could sus things out pronto when bringing my own "near" (more like mid) fields. Yeah it was funny how often I got weird looks as I walked around listening to my test CD. Guys couldn’t understand why I wasn’t just sitting in the sweet spot or how often the sweet spot for LF wasn’t at the console. |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 15, 2024 9:47:06 GMT -6
The GIK treatment (£3K worth) was obviously highly effective! As I said my mixes translate to the outside world absolutely perfectly - there’s nothing I ever want to change about a mix hearing it on any other system. Rule one, if it ain’t broke …. don’t fix it But I do appreciate what you’re saying, I simply don’t have a scientific approach to my music making. Unfortunately they're not physics breaking effective though and can't even deal with my monitors, I have similar sized room to you (4.1M X 4.7M) or (13.5 ft. by 15.4 ft.).
The SCM 25's are probably saving you a bit if you're not boundary loading them too hard due to them rolling off at 47hz but they could also cause more issues due to them being side ported, how big are your traps for first reflections? Nothing GIK makes can cover it, even for my front ported I had to get a custom built 3ft deep rear wall / corner absorber with diaphragmatic material and my monitors are not cardioid so hmm. When it comes to corner bass, tri-traps run at 50Hz. The soffits are the only one's that could probably deal with the SCM's at 40Hz.
My Dyn's are even worse as they have big ol' 9.5" drivers, they are somewhat boundary loaded and begin to roll off at -36. REW sweep runs at tons of different locations shows that my monitors are trying to produce nearly 30Hz which is crazy in a room my size. I've tried to correct this multiple ways, a high pass up to 38Hz then correction from there on and I can get +-3dB with ARC but I won't deny it. Despite having GIK design it and an acoustician verify we all knew miracles couldn't happen, the aim was to avoid a null so I could correct after the fact. The other option was to use my large room (8.2M X 5.4M) which would be happy without correction at 40Hz but that required 40+ panels if I remember correctly.
Even built from the ground up studio's can be challenging, then there's the stuff you put in the room to consider. Acoustics is a complex topic, I've never researched it enough to really get to the bottom of it so I've been similar to you. Just get on with it sorta thing, after I tried Genelec's GLM though it really was interesting (this can do something similar to Trinnov).. Sure, things translate and I'm not finding any major issues, I've worked in worse rooms with worse monitors. Although in terms of consistency especially now I've used GLM I wouldn't personally disregard it.
The only issue I have with the Trinnov is for the price you're not far off a set of Genelec 8341's and GLM is fantastic it really is, I suppose it really depends if you like Genelec's or not..
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 15, 2024 9:59:42 GMT -6
I’ve seen the st-2 and mic going for like $2800
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 11:01:43 GMT -6
The GIK treatment (£3K worth) was obviously highly effective! As I said my mixes translate to the outside world absolutely perfectly - there’s nothing I ever want to change about a mix hearing it on any other system. Rule one, if it ain’t broke …. don’t fix it But I do appreciate what you’re saying, I simply don’t have a scientific approach to my music making. Unfortunately they're not physics breaking effective though and can't even deal with my monitors, I have similar sized room to you (4.1M X 4.7M) or (13.5 ft. by 15.4 ft.).
The SCM 25's are probably saving you a bit if you're not boundary loading them too hard due to them rolling off at 47hz but they could also cause more issues due to them being side ported, how big are your traps for first reflections? Nothing GIK makes can cover it, even for my front ported I had to get a custom built 3ft deep rear wall / corner absorber with diaphragmatic material and my monitors are not cardioid so hmm. When it comes to corner bass, tri-traps run at 50Hz. The soffits are the only one's that could probably deal with the SCM's at 40Hz.
My Dyn's are even worse as they have big ol' 9.5" drivers, they are somewhat boundary loaded and begin to roll off at -36. REW sweep runs at tons of different locations shows that my monitors are trying to produce nearly 30Hz which is crazy in a room my size. I've tried to correct this multiple ways, a high pass up to 38Hz then correction from there on and I can get +-3dB with ARC but I won't deny it. Despite having GIK design it and an acoustician verify we all knew miracles couldn't happen, the aim was to avoid a null so I could correct after the fact. The other option was to use my large room (8.2M X 5.4M) which would be happy without correction at 40Hz but that required 40+ panels if I remember correctly.
Even built from the ground up studio's can be challenging, then there's the stuff you put in the room to consider. Acoustics is a complex topic, I've never researched it enough to really get to the bottom of it so I've been similar to you. Just get on with it sorta thing, after I tried Genelec's GLM though it really was interesting (this can do something similar to Trinnov).. Sure, things translate and I'm not finding any major issues, I've worked in worse rooms with worse monitors. Although in terms of consistency especially now I've used GLM I wouldn't personally disregard it.
The only issue I have with the Trinnov is for the price you're not far off a set of Genelec 8341's and GLM is fantastic it really is, I suppose it really depends if you like Genelec's or not..
Port position won’t matter, at a tuned freq of 47 they will be acting as an Omni radiator long before that . |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 15, 2024 12:13:42 GMT -6
Port position won’t matter, at a tuned freq of 47 they will be acting as an Omni radiator long before that . I'm certainly not disputing the omnidirectional nature of bass and if your monitors are free standing sure. However in a boundary loaded situation? Arc, REW, GLM all disagree unfortunatley and GLM isn't all that hard to understand. It literally gave me a report saying move it further away from the wall dummy, well it didn't say dummy but I'd have chuckled if it did.
As soon as I switched to the Dyn's which are front ported, less issues in the 40 - 80Hz range. Same position thereabouts, I have a stupidy large desk so there's not that much room for monitor positioning. Ultimately I can only go by the readouts I'm getting..
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 13:13:37 GMT -6
Port position won’t matter, at a tuned freq of 47 they will be acting as an Omni radiator long before that . I'm certainly not disputing the omnidirectional nature of bass and if your monitors are free standing sure. However in a boundary loaded situation? Arc, REW, GLM all disagree unfortunatley and GLM isn't all that hard to understand. It literally gave me a report saying move it further away from the wall dummy, well it didn't say dummy but I'd have chuckled if it did.
As soon as I switched to the Dyn's which are front ported, less issues in the 40 - 80Hz range. Same position thereabouts, I have a stupidy large desk so there's not that much room for monitor positioning. Ultimately I can only go by the readouts I'm getting..
It’s those pesky laws of physics if the wave length is greater than the size of the baffle it acts as an Omni radiatior. You might see a peak around the port freq and sense that it is directional, but what you are more likely seeing is a phase issue. Yes surrounding gear may cause some issues but you’re not creating a 2 meter baffle. Also moving the port to cure such an issue it’s just going to mean you need to be more careful with the front baffle. Remember this is not a 2D issue it’s a 3D phenomenon. My hunch is this will also show up less with a array type mic than a simple inexpensive “ calibratied mic” hell I notice it with the Mini DSP USB even with its individual profile, not so much with the Audix MBHO. The other “ trick” I was taught years ago was for everything bellow about 200HZ to base my EQ choices based on a more mid field measurement. Rear ports got a bad rep in the pro world many years ago when a manufacturer built some awesome compact dual 18 subs, killer in small arrays, but a couple of rap guys loved them tried touring with a truck full and created huge baffles. |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 15, 2024 14:09:41 GMT -6
It’s those pesky laws of physics if the wave length is greater than the size of the baffle it acts as an Omni radiatior. You might see a peak around the port freq and sense that it is directional, but what you are more likely seeing is a phase issue. Yes surrounding gear may cause some issues but you’re not creating a 2 meter baffle. Also moving the port to cure such an issue it’s just going to mean you need to be more careful with the front baffle. Remember this is not a 2D issue it’s a 3D phenomenon. My hunch is this will also show up less with a array type mic than a simple inexpensive “ calibratied mic” hell I notice it with the Mini DSP USB even with its individual profile, not so much with the Audix MBHO. The other “ trick” I was taught years ago was for everything bellow about 200HZ to base my EQ choices based on a more mid field measurement. Rear ports got a bad rep in the pro world many years ago when a manufacturer built some awesome compact dual 18 subs, killer in small arrays, but a couple of rap guys loved them tried touring with a truck full and created huge baffles. It sounds like you're hinting at an SBIR dip with the word "phase" but that's simply not the case, rear ported in my room was producing 10 - 12 dB boosts (not phase cancellation dips) (tested with LYD 48's & Genelec 8341's) and we all know with ATC's that boundary loading is a way to get them to kick a bit more. Although sure it can have the opposite effect where we start to null in area's and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the whole "bass light" thing comes from on occasion.
What's going on isn't actually that hard to fathom if you were in my room at the time, it's a simple reflection proximity effect. The Genelec's have a weird sort of rear / upwards port configuration that wants to hit part of your ceiling so they were the worst. The LYD's are rear ported but not as bad, the 59's being front ported won't actively create rear facing omni bass until it's out of the transmission tunnel (due to the baffle) then reflects back on itself (or really 360 degrees) where it hits a massively thick piece of wall mounted treatment. It's not fool proof but it does change the dynamic.
The actual baffle itself is there to stop phase cancellation but if they're too small they restrict the amount of bass produced not increase it. Myself and Tenor are in similar sized rooms and what's going to make the biggest difference is positioning.
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2024 14:23:16 GMT -6
Yes the boundary issue is going to effect LF, but the location of the port isn’t going to matter, your addressing it like it’s a boundary with the port, it’s not it’s the cabinet. Of course I could be wrong, but then we would have to throw out the rules every speaker designer has accepted, how LF is managed by every major touring company etc.
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