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Post by svart on Mar 26, 2024 9:06:49 GMT -6
I am skeptical anyone ever has issues at 1ms latency. For me, issues with rhythm and even pitch/tonality begin to arise between 3-4ms. I can easily work with 1 or 2ms latency. What! How do you know how latency feels to someone else. I can and have passed a double blind ABX latency test. I can easily detect the difference between 1 and 2ms. How - a lifetime of playing real instruments. If someone else can't - that's more than fair enough - but I'm not going to have anyone tell what I can and cannot feel. Sorry if that sounds sniffy - it's not meant to - I'm just saying. So when you stand back from your amp about 5ft, you can detect the 5ms of latency? Sound in air travels around 1ft per millisecond.. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 9:14:52 GMT -6
While tracking, I feel like I notice and am bothered by any latency at all. Using the Cranborne 500R8 is great for me as I can monitor directly while tracking. Another strange thing is that I can also level things very well by sight. I still need to fine tune a bit when I pull out a level but the bubble is almost always between the lines to start, almost never use a level because of it. A fellow Human Leveler! It's a very useful skill. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 9:21:33 GMT -6
I am skeptical anyone ever has issues at 1ms latency. For me, issues with rhythm and even pitch/tonality begin to arise between 3-4ms. I can easily work with 1 or 2ms latency. What! How do you know how latency feels to someone else. I can and have passed a double blind ABX latency test. I can easily detect the difference between 1 and 2ms. How - a lifetime of playing real instruments. If someone else can't - that's more than fair enough - but I'm not going to have anyone tell what I can and cannot feel. Sorry if that sounds sniffy - it's not meant to - I'm just saying. Same. Maybe the same reason. Got my first cello at 6 and it's been all music all the time for almost four decades since. And all physical instruments for the most part. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 9:24:41 GMT -6
hearing it or feeling it? Cannot hear it under 40-50 ms easily because of the Haas effect which will change the sound even with 2-3 ms of latency. Feel is different. Very different things I think. It's easy to hear ~1ms phase anomalies from Haas if you have a direct wet/dry combination. If you just listen to the wet, then I think it's easily up to >20ms before most folks perceive it as some kind of noticeable delay, but probably can't really "hear" it until much higher. This is what I'm looking for. I hear the delay around 5ms but that seems unnoticeable to most. Seems like 10ms is a safe target for paths where I can't monitor direct. |
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Post by noob on Mar 26, 2024 9:27:12 GMT -6
What! How do you know how latency feels to someone else. I can and have passed a double blind ABX latency test. I can easily detect the difference between 1 and 2ms. How - a lifetime of playing real instruments. If someone else can't - that's more than fair enough - but I'm not going to have anyone tell what I can and cannot feel. Sorry if that sounds sniffy - it's not meant to - I'm just saying. So when you stand back from your amp about 5ft, you can detect the 5ms of latency? Sound in air travels around 1ft per millisecond.. I do find it odd that if I have 5ms, for example, on a record feed then it completely messes me up in terms of groove. But if I am tracking bass or guitar DI from 5 feet away from my monitors, it's not a problem at all. Maybe because it's all relative at that point? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 9:30:47 GMT -6
So when you stand back from your amp about 5ft, you can detect the 5ms of latency? Sound in air travels around 1ft per millisecond.. I do find it odd that if I have 5ms, for example, on a record feed then it completely messes me up in terms of groove. But if I am tracking bass or guitar DI from 5 feet away from my monitors, it's not a problem at all. Maybe because it's all relative at that point? I can hear the lag if I'm too far from amp and it drives me bonkers. When we play big stages I always keep my amps close no matter how good the monitoring. Makes sense that 5ms is the max, decades of six foot guitar cables plugged into a practice amp. |
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Post by noob on Mar 26, 2024 9:36:21 GMT -6
I do find it odd that if I have 5ms, for example, on a record feed then it completely messes me up in terms of groove. But if I am tracking bass or guitar DI from 5 feet away from my monitors, it's not a problem at all. Maybe because it's all relative at that point? I can hear the lag if I'm too far from amp and it drives me bonkers. When we play big stages I always keep my amps close no matter how good the monitoring. Makes sense that 5ms is the max, decades of six foot guitar cables plugged into a practice amp. Can absolutely relate to this. If I play a show I need the wedge literally right in front of me, otherwise I always feel like I'm out of pitch and off time. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 26, 2024 9:46:46 GMT -6
I can hear the lag if I'm too far from amp and it drives me bonkers. When we play big stages I always keep my amps close no matter how good the monitoring. Makes sense that 5ms is the max, decades of six foot guitar cables plugged into a practice amp. Can absolutely relate to this. If I play a show I need the wedge literally right in front of me, otherwise I always feel like I'm out of pitch and off time. My band is now all on IEM's - it's great - we're so much tighter as a band. And as I'm the singer my pitching is spot on. In fact my only real criticism of IEM's is my singing becomes too perfect and "studio like" and I've had to learn how to rough it up a bit just so it still has that edgy live sound and not too controlled. I was listening back to what I thought was an album track and it was actually a live recording! - and I thought mmmh those vocals are a bit too nice  IEM's do take some getting used to. |
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Post by noob on Mar 26, 2024 9:49:19 GMT -6
Can absolutely relate to this. If I play a show I need the wedge literally right in front of me, otherwise I always feel like I'm out of pitch and off time. In fact my only real criticism of IEM's is my singing becomes too perfect and "studio like" and I've had to learn how to rough it up a bit just so it still has that edgy live sound and not too controlled. Colorbox V2 + Death by Audio echo master  |
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Post by crillemannen on Mar 26, 2024 10:28:01 GMT -6
Feels like these threads always becomes a competition of how low latency ppl can feel. I don't buy it at all. Playing through an amp is a good comparison like someone brought up here, you don't feel that latency as awkard or throwing you off huh?
I'm not that picky at all when it comes to latency. When I have a click I can sing in time without any issues and I suspect without measuring that it won't become an issue before it surpasses 20ms+
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Post by phdamage on Mar 26, 2024 11:12:47 GMT -6
Man, this is breaking my brain a bit. Doesn’t sound travel at roughly 1 ft per millisecond? Most guitarists play what? 6 feet from their rig at least, no? I routinely give headphone mixes to clients at 6-7 msec and have never had anyone say a damn thing. I have no latency monitoring available but often don’t use it so I can use some processing.
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Post by bossanova on Mar 26, 2024 11:17:26 GMT -6
I can hear the lag if I'm too far from amp and it drives me bonkers. When we play big stages I always keep my amps close no matter how good the monitoring. Makes sense that 5ms is the max, decades of six foot guitar cables plugged into a practice amp. Can absolutely relate to this. If I play a show I need the wedge literally right in front of me, otherwise I always feel like I'm out of pitch and off time. There’s a story from Ian McLagen regarding Mick Taylor showing up for a guest performance with the Stones, plugging into an amp that was a fair distance away on a large stage (near Mac), and cranking guitar and amp to 11 for self monitoring. Mac said that the resulting sound was so terrifyingly loud that he fled the stage in order to avoid permanent ear damage. I will say that amp/PA distance has never bothered me. I wonder if that’s because there’s additional unreported latency creeping into those 5-20ms digital round trip reports. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 11:25:04 GMT -6
Feels like these threads always becomes a competition of how low latency ppl can feel. I don't buy it at all. Playing through an amp is a good comparison like someone brought up here, you don't feel that latency as a game changer huh? I'm not that picky at all when it comes to latency. When I have a click I can sing in time without any issues and I suspect without measuring that it won't become an issue before it surpasses 20ms+ I really just started the thread to see how much I can get away with before the average client would be frustrated. I figure that cut in half is a good target. Even with an amp in real life there's a point where your performance is impacted. It's different for different people. For you it's 20ms, for others more or less. 10ms seems like a safe target and then have an ultra-low latency plan for those who are bothered by 10ms. You think latency is bad? Don't get me started on LED lighting!! Haha. That makes latency irritation look like a walk in the park. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 11:27:08 GMT -6
Can absolutely relate to this. If I play a show I need the wedge literally right in front of me, otherwise I always feel like I'm out of pitch and off time. There’s a story from Ian McLagen regarding Mick Taylor showing up for a guest performance with the Stones, plugging into an amp that was a fair distance away on a large stage (near Mac), and cranking guitar and amp to 11 for self monitoring. Mac said that the resulting sound was so terrifyingly loud that he fled the stage in order to avoid permanent ear damage. I will say that amp/PA distance has never bothered me. I wonder if that’s because there’s additional unreported latency creeping into those 5-20ms digital round trip reports. Off topic. Ian McLagen did a weekly gig in Austin for years. We shared a publicist so I got to hang with him a few times. Maybe the single kindest musician I've ever met at any level. And very generous in sharing knowledge. |
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Post by crillemannen on Mar 26, 2024 11:46:14 GMT -6
Feels like these threads always becomes a competition of how low latency ppl can feel. I don't buy it at all. Playing through an amp is a good comparison like someone brought up here, you don't feel that latency as a game changer huh? I'm not that picky at all when it comes to latency. When I have a click I can sing in time without any issues and I suspect without measuring that it won't become an issue before it surpasses 20ms+ I really just started the thread to see how much I can get away with before the average client would be frustrated. I figure that cut in half is a good target. Even with an amp in real life there's a point where your performance is impacted. It's different for different people. For you it's 20ms, for others more or less. 10ms seems like a safe target and then have an ultra-low latency plan for those who are bothered by 10ms. You think latency is bad? Don't get me started on LED lighting!! Haha. That makes latency irritation look like a walk in the park. Whatever people do to make them feel comfortable but I'm sure there are science on how short of a latency humans can feel or react on. I do remember reading it being 13ms, but that's roundtrip of course which most soundcards doesn't write out before you read the manual. 7-13ms should be more then ok. I can feel and hear the tiniest amount of a hit being of beat but that is more a damage from my years of recording and editing metal hahah. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 11:51:55 GMT -6
I really just started the thread to see how much I can get away with before the average client would be frustrated. I figure that cut in half is a good target. Even with an amp in real life there's a point where your performance is impacted. It's different for different people. For you it's 20ms, for others more or less. 10ms seems like a safe target and then have an ultra-low latency plan for those who are bothered by 10ms. You think latency is bad? Don't get me started on LED lighting!! Haha. That makes latency irritation look like a walk in the park. Whatever people do to make them feel comfortable but I'm sure there are science on how short of a latency humans can feel or react on. I do remember reading it being 13ms, but that's roundtrip of course which most soundcards doesn't write out before you read the manual. 7-13ms should be more then ok. I can feel and hear the tiniest amount of a hit being of beat but that is more a damage from my years of recording and editing metal hahah. I think on a delay pedal it's about 15ms before it feels like delay as opposed to chorus or something. So 13ms makes sense EDIT: missed a zero there... haha, more like 150ms to feel like slapback |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 26, 2024 11:53:49 GMT -6
Whatever people do to make them feel comfortable but I'm sure there are science on how short of a latency humans can feel or react on. I do remember reading it being 13ms, but that's roundtrip of course which most soundcards doesn't write out before you read the manual. 7-13ms should be more then ok. I can feel and hear the tiniest amount of a hit being of beat but that is more a damage from my years of recording and editing metal hahah. I think on a delay pedal it's about 15ms before it feels like delay as opposed to chorus or something. So 13ms makes sense That just made me think of something funny. The irony of all of this is that I hate latency but I LOVE delay. Especially slap back. I just love it. So go figure that out! lol Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome, we end up embracing the things that oppress us!! |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 26, 2024 12:44:04 GMT -6
Feels like these threads always becomes a competition of how low latency ppl can feel. I don't buy it at all. Playing through an amp is a good comparison like someone brought up here, you don't feel that latency as awkard or throwing you off huh? I'm not that picky at all when it comes to latency. When I have a click I can sing in time without any issues and I suspect without measuring that it won't become an issue before it surpasses 20ms+ Thing is Crille (being blunt as always especially to myself). As it stands right now you're a far better musician than I am, back in the day when I was doing Soilwork covers on guitar and playing Slipknot covers on drums I could compensate for a lot more. I'm not saying this is a general thing, some incredibly technical awesome drummers get annoyed at 5ms latency but the point is when I was practicing 4 nights a week and playing gigs on a weekend I could compensate for much more. Even a 12ms RTT via an amp sim would never bother me..
Also to quote SOS it is a bit like a fridge buzzing, having a 0.7ms RTT or mixer in the path with a TB out interface doing 0.9ms or something then when that fridge stops buzzing there's a sigh of relief. I noticed it 20 years ago when I had both HDX, a console and still knew how to play properly.. At the time it wouldn't have affected the end result but it sounded right.
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 26, 2024 12:54:54 GMT -6
Man, this is breaking my brain a bit. Doesn’t sound travel at roughly 1 ft per millisecond? Most guitarists play what? 6 feet from their rig at least, no? I routinely give headphone mixes to clients at 6-7 msec and have never had anyone say a damn thing. I have no latency monitoring available but often don’t use it so I can use some processing. I like to sniff the cone whilst I dive bomb...
I am joking of course  .. |
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Post by bossanova on Mar 26, 2024 13:07:55 GMT -6
There’s a story from Ian McLagen regarding Mick Taylor showing up for a guest performance with the Stones, plugging into an amp that was a fair distance away on a large stage (near Mac), and cranking guitar and amp to 11 for self monitoring. Mac said that the resulting sound was so terrifyingly loud that he fled the stage in order to avoid permanent ear damage. I will say that amp/PA distance has never bothered me. I wonder if that’s because there’s additional unreported latency creeping into those 5-20ms digital round trip reports. Off topic. Ian McLagen did a weekly gig in Austin for years. We shared a publicist so I got to hang with him a few times. Maybe the single kindest musician I've ever met at any level. And very generous in sharing knowledge. That's really cool ❤️ My wife is an Austin native who actually grew up here, and she was fortunate enough to correspond with him off and on and say hey to him at local shows. We still have a signed copy of his autobiography, which I relayed the proceeding story from. She's also a mega Who fan and it was (and is) the most unreal thing to her to have one degree of separation from someone who spent so much time around them. I grew up in Ohio. At one point we had Clapton living quietly in Columbus, Peter Frampton living quietly in Indian Hill (a suburb near where I grew up in Cincinnati), and Dave Chappelle living very quietly in Yellow Springs. I think that was it 😂 |
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Post by svart on Mar 26, 2024 13:08:37 GMT -6
Man, this is breaking my brain a bit. Doesn’t sound travel at roughly 1 ft per millisecond? Most guitarists play what? 6 feet from their rig at least, no? I routinely give headphone mixes to clients at 6-7 msec and have never had anyone say a damn thing. I have no latency monitoring available but often don’t use it so I can use some processing. Yeah, I mentioned that it's about 1ft per millisecond already. I still find it interesting that some can say that 1ms is hard for them but then say that they can only use real amps because there is no latency, but the math would say that they routinely hear 5-10ms of latency in a room.. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 26, 2024 13:22:24 GMT -6
Man, this is breaking my brain a bit. Doesn’t sound travel at roughly 1 ft per millisecond? Most guitarists play what? 6 feet from their rig at least, no? I routinely give headphone mixes to clients at 6-7 msec and have never had anyone say a damn thing. I have no latency monitoring available but often don’t use it so I can use some processing. Yeah, I mentioned that it's about 1ft per millisecond already. I still find it interesting that some can say that 1ms is hard for them but then say that they can only use real amps because there is no latency, but the math would say that they routinely hear 5-10ms of latency in a room.. It does depend on what you're playing IME. Vocals have to be the worst for me because it's instantly resonating in my skull vs. the RT from all the devices back to the headphones. Drums are a clear second because you're never going to be 5 meters away from a kit and the snap vs. replay doesn't align, guitars? Hmm, acoustic is worse than distorted electric because on a lot of metal tracks it's not always easy to pick out what they're doing at the best of times on a finished product. Might as well be 50ms latency LOL..
It does depend for me on the level of interaction and in room response, for example a violin is going to be right up next to you so even a minimal delay is going to put me off. Although as to my previous point you can learn to adapt to an extent.
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Post by wiz on Mar 26, 2024 14:34:31 GMT -6
How do you guys go with live playing and standing 10 to 20 feet from your amp?
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Post by doubledog on Mar 26, 2024 14:54:56 GMT -6
Off topic. Ian McLagen did a weekly gig in Austin for years. We shared a publicist so I got to hang with him a few times. Maybe the single kindest musician I've ever met at any level. And very generous in sharing knowledge. Took my buddy down to that once (he's a big Faces fan) and Mac was nice enough to let him help load out his gear at the end of the night. ha ha! I wish I had those kind of fans! But seriously, he was so happy to do it because they were just chatting the whole time. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2024 15:18:54 GMT -6
Man, this is breaking my brain a bit. Doesn’t sound travel at roughly 1 ft per millisecond? Most guitarists play what? 6 feet from their rig at least, no? I routinely give headphone mixes to clients at 6-7 msec and have never had anyone say a damn thing. I have no latency monitoring available but often don’t use it so I can use some processing. Yeah, I mentioned that it's about 1ft per millisecond already. I still find it interesting that some can say that 1ms is hard for them but then say that they can only use real amps because there is no latency, but the math would say that they routinely hear 5-10ms of latency in a room.. Math lies! (Just kidding. The truth is all of us are probably too precious and too in our heads about various parts of recording. That’s certainly been my observation recording bands the last few decades). |
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