ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2024 15:19:37 GMT -6
In the hat day of cassette ir was common for auto reverse decks to never hold alignment so you would get all these guys requesting more HF till your ears were bleeding. Or a favorite was this guy who loved it in his car , on this Walkmen, etc except on his brothers stereo everything collapsed, he had the mono button pushed in. Cars are teeerrrible to use for reference. My guess is that when I get him to listen to other songs, he'd probably think those vocals sounded "tinny" too. My 4Runner sounds must have a 60" sub, because when I reference songs in there, I'm always freaking out thinking I have way, way too much bass. Then I put on a Vance Powell et al mix and it has a huge boomy bottom too. It's the stereo/speakers that are hyped for consumers. Now - a really great mix still sounds great - just huge on the bottom...so, I've learned that much. Now imagine jeep speakers. Or hell - I'm scared to ask what monitors he's listening on...I would guess they're probably some bookshelf speakers. Other than a skewed image the Tesla is pretty balanced, not that transparent but Elon did a pretty good job. I will never forget the Infiniti i30 Bose system where the CD changer was mounted between the subs, get the LF going and it would skip all over the place. |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 20, 2024 15:27:21 GMT -6
I like my car as a reference point. It’s kinda scooped sounding, but if it works in my room and the car it’s pretty much ready to send to Mastering.
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Post by Dan on Feb 20, 2024 15:57:01 GMT -6
I'll read the thread for real later, but my first instinct is to rarely give out rough mixes. Though (like in John's example) sometimes you have to. Yeah - it's hard to know what to do. I track at the same place 90% of the time, so I have my session data ready to pop in and it's basically set up ready to mix...but it's 75% there. Obviously, it's a starting point, but it sounds way better than sending aboard mix. I've gone back and forth whether to send a board mix that kinda sounds like shit or sending the semi-mixed version. I usually send the semi mixed so I don't have to get into the convo of "I know it doesn't sound great now, but you just wait..." Some people freak out because they have no clue about the process. BUT - I've also basically gotten stuff 90% there and gotten the "When you mix it..." So...wtf. I mean it is what it is...guess I'm just commiserating. I always get it like partially done. All the corrective eq and premixing stuff done. Before sending it back. Most of the time, there is only 1-2 problems on their system being stupid resonant at certain frequencies, they're complaining or fist fighting each other about levels, want more automation to even out something they're self-conscious about, there's band drama, or you're tuning it to whatever crappy system they're checking it on so spend 10 minutes tops on a recall changing stuff that won't matter at all in the real world and just keep going until they sign off on it and pay you the rest.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 20, 2024 19:09:09 GMT -6
I'll read the thread for real later, but my first instinct is to rarely give out rough mixes. Though (like in John's example) sometimes you have to. Yeah - it's hard to know what to do. I track at the same place 90% of the time, so I have my session data ready to pop in and it's basically set up ready to mix...but it's 75% there. Obviously, it's a starting point, but it sounds way better than sending aboard mix. I've gone back and forth whether to send a board mix that kinda sounds like shit or sending the semi-mixed version. I usually send the semi mixed so I don't have to get into the convo of "I know it doesn't sound great now, but you just wait..." Some people freak out because they have no clue about the process. BUT - I've also basically gotten stuff 90% there and gotten the "When you mix it..." So...wtf. I mean it is what it is...guess I'm just commiserating. I often refer to board mixes as Cement Mixes---rougher than rough. It's hard to know what people are listening on (and what they're listening FOR). I feel you pain. Yeah - it's hard to know what to do. I track at the same place 90% of the time, so I have my session data ready to pop in and it's basically set up ready to mix...but it's 75% there. Obviously, it's a starting point, but it sounds way better than sending aboard mix. I've gone back and forth whether to send a board mix that kinda sounds like shit or sending the semi-mixed version. I usually send the semi mixed so I don't have to get into the convo of "I know it doesn't sound great now, but you just wait..." Some people freak out because they have no clue about the process. BUT - I've also basically gotten stuff 90% there and gotten the "When you mix it..." So...wtf. I mean it is what it is...guess I'm just commiserating. I always get it like partially done. All the corrective eq and premixing stuff done. Before sending it back. Most of the time, there is only 1-2 problems on their system being stupid resonant at certain frequencies, they're complaining or fist fighting each other about levels, want more automation to even out something they're self-conscious about, there's band drama, or you're tuning it to whatever crappy system they're checking it on so spend 10 minutes tops on a recall changing stuff that won't matter at all in the real world and just keep going until they sign off on it and pay you the rest.
I've gotten into a system of sending out mixes and letting the artist live with them and make a master list of notes. Then some or all of them come back to the studio and we address the revisions together in the space. I think you both are doing a lot of remote mixing, so I doubt that would work for you though. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 20, 2024 19:27:02 GMT -6
Yeah - it's hard to know what to do. I track at the same place 90% of the time, so I have my session data ready to pop in and it's basically set up ready to mix...but it's 75% there. Obviously, it's a starting point, but it sounds way better than sending aboard mix. I've gone back and forth whether to send a board mix that kinda sounds like shit or sending the semi-mixed version. I usually send the semi mixed so I don't have to get into the convo of "I know it doesn't sound great now, but you just wait..." Some people freak out because they have no clue about the process. BUT - I've also basically gotten stuff 90% there and gotten the "When you mix it..." So...wtf. I mean it is what it is...guess I'm just commiserating. I often refer to board mixes as Cement Mixes---rougher than rough. It's hard to know what people are listening on (and what they're listening FOR). I feel you pain. I always get it like partially done. All the corrective eq and premixing stuff done. Before sending it back. Most of the time, there is only 1-2 problems on their system being stupid resonant at certain frequencies, they're complaining or fist fighting each other about levels, want more automation to even out something they're self-conscious about, there's band drama, or you're tuning it to whatever crappy system they're checking it on so spend 10 minutes tops on a recall changing stuff that won't matter at all in the real world and just keep going until they sign off on it and pay you the rest.
I've gotten into a system of sending out mixes and letting the artist live with them and make a master list of notes. Then some or all of them come back to the studio and we address the revisions together in the space. I think you both are doing a lot of remote mixing, so I doubt that would work for you though. Yeah. That’s the best way to do it. Come over to sign off on mixes. |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 21, 2024 2:15:14 GMT -6
Have you guys ever witnessed a fight about to break out between two band members in the control room? Seriously had to tell them to take it outside and go to the park to let your frustrations out, not on my property! I have! I've witnessed band members quit and walk out during their tracking time too. I've had offers from band members to pay me to replace parts of other band members in secret.. I've had band members get so drunk/high they couldn't walk out of the studio. I've had them show up on the wrong day. Once in a while I'll even have the WHOLE band show up, ON TIME, WITH all their gear in working order (rarest of all the weird stuff that happens at the studio). My great recording experiences have generally been with bands and music outside rock and roll. I’ve recorded Greek music bands, folk bands, jazz bands etc and the band/musicians show up on time, sober, gear and music perfectly prepared. Records have gone smooth as silk. Simple. No egos to deal with. |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 21, 2024 7:08:40 GMT -6
Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. Rant away John, rant away. I mean if people are genuinely interested and easy going I'll take some time out to help them no issues, it's just good customer service to me. Unfortunately that never seemed to happen all that often and then there's that ol' cliche no good deed goes unpunished. I've tried to politely and respectfully help others on occasion and when it comes to professional bands they normally like constructive criticism, usually though there's hardly anything to say in the first place. Outside of that well, it can be a mixed bag and with the more tempermental folks I wouldn't want to ruin their tone deaf aspirations..
The most tricky bit and you have my empathy here is what you're talking about, the customer blaming you for their mistakes. They think that mixing is some old western cure all tonic that actually works. I see it this way, give me some decent clay and I can mould it to whatever, give me apple juice and expect me to make a cup? It's never going to work. In this line of work it can be often word of mouth or reputational in general but the issue is you're biting at the chomp for work as well. So, I'd love to say run like hell but it doesn't always work that way. Although I would state clearly after the initial listen, before we get to the mixes what the issues are, what the risks are if nothing is done about them and set expectations. You're the guru here John, not them or they wouldn't need you in the first place.
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Post by svart on Feb 21, 2024 7:34:28 GMT -6
I have! I've witnessed band members quit and walk out during their tracking time too. I've had offers from band members to pay me to replace parts of other band members in secret.. I've had band members get so drunk/high they couldn't walk out of the studio. I've had them show up on the wrong day. Once in a while I'll even have the WHOLE band show up, ON TIME, WITH all their gear in working order (rarest of all the weird stuff that happens at the studio). My great recording experiences have generally been with bands and music outside rock and roll. I’ve recorded Greek music bands, folk bands, jazz bands etc and the band/musicians show up on time, sober, gear and music perfectly prepared. Records have gone smooth as silk. Simple. No egos to deal with. I'd say that 70% of the artists I've worked with have been fine. But there's definitely a trend in whom tends to be a problem.. Younger artists and indie types. The younger generation definitely acts differently in the studio. They're a lot more emotional and a lot less structured in their lives. There is absolutely a lesser emphasis on things like being on-time. They also tend to want to "be in the moment" more which just translates to being not completely prepared.. |
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Post by svart on Feb 21, 2024 8:09:44 GMT -6
Smile and wave, send them the invoice, move onto the next job. That's how I dealt with those sort of customers.. Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. I've told part of this story on here before, but I'll get into more details here.. I worked with a "producer" who brought in a band to be recorded. He drastically underestimated the time we'd need to record as well as the cost.. So we tracked the basic instruments as quickly as possible and he said he'd be back to track more stuff later "when he had more money". Only he didn't come back. He went out and bought a mic and an interface with the money and tried to track the vocalist at his house along with some other overdub stuff. After a month or so he called me and said he was having a tough time getting stuff mixed (which was news to me since I had been waiting for him to book more time..) and he wanted me to SUGGEST to him how to fix it over the phone.. I suggested sending me the files and letting me work on it. Anyway, he protested and complained and hung up on me. A few weeks later I got an email with a link to the files and some raw mixes as guides. The vocal tracks were the worst I have EVER heard in my life. Sometimes you listen to something and you snicker a little.. But this time I felt pure pity on the vocalist. It was entirely obvious that she was not able to hear herself. It was also obvious that the room was small and completely untreated as the reflections were almost as loud as the vocals themselves were. The lawnmower outside was almost as loud as the vocals were, as was the barking dog/TV/radio in the background. The other tracks were guitar tracks that the producer recorded and wanted in the mixes as well. They were awful sounding. The playing was good but the tracking was preamp distorted to hell and the mic placement was bad. There was nothing but that shrill 2K spike. Anyway, I actually tried to rescue this stuff and I spent a week of my own time trying to do my best for this band and it was just unusable in the end. I chalked it up to learning, and I learned a lot about trying to fix severely screwed up tracks, but I couldn't fix these enough to make them usable. So I called the producer and told him that we needed to retrack the vocals at the very least, and he didn't take it well at all. "They just need some EQ" is what I was told. I explained the severe comb filtering, the noises, the background stuff, and he told me straight out that he was not going to pay for that. He'd pay me to mix the songs one time and that was all that would happen. He said that if I wanted to retrack the vocals, then I'd have to call the band and make a deal with them directly. So I called the band and told them what was going on. They were not happy at all. It turns out that the producer was telling them that I was refusing to work unless I got more money, and the producer was asking THEM to pay HIM more money to get ME to do more work. I also found out that they had been paying HIM to produce them, while he was telling me that HE was producing them for FREE. What a mess. I did offer a few hours to retrack vocals and we did eventually retrack the songs. The vocalist was just a young girl. She had never been in a studio before. She just needed some coaching. She told me that the producer wouldn't even tell her what she was doing wrong during takes and that she couldn't hear herself in the headphones and the producer didn't know how to use the gear. She also told me that the producer put her in the "vocal booth" which was essentially a tiny room with nothing else, and certainly no kinds of sound control. The end of the story was that I mixed the songs with the producer attending and it didn't go well either. The band was an indie/emo/punk sound and he wanted it all dripping with reverb and effects and so on. In the end he paid me, but nobody was happy with how it turned out. A year or so later the band contacted me to track their next album and I was told that they were super happy with how I handled the situation on the last record. They weren't happy with the results but they knew it was all about the producer and they wanted to work directly with me this time. I gave them a real sweetheart quote for the record and they were pretty happy. Never heard from them. A few months later I see them posting on FB about going into the studio to record their next album, so I thought I'd send them a message to see when exactly they wanted to come in.. Turns out they were getting recorded for "free" by another producer.. SIGH. A few months later I get a message from this band about checking out some mixes because "they don't sound good".. So I listen to their tracks and it's a shit-show much like the last time.. This time I don't even try. I just tell them they're unfixable. I get one more message that says "we should have just came to you". They broke up soon after. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 21, 2024 8:10:25 GMT -6
I also have this singer I'm working with who wanted a song produced by the end of January. We initially connected on Soundbetter in early December. Tried to set up some phone calls to hash out what they were looking for, expectations, etc, but pretty much radio silence. Gave them my rate and they funded the job. Started work and sent some initial ideas. Got minimal feedback weeks later that it was "great!". Finished up the instrumental arrangement as best I could without their input and never heard back. Ended up messaging Soundbetter because I had put in like a few days work doing the arrangement and I wanted to get paid. Eventually heard back from the singer that they could come by and do vocals. Vocals came out great, spent several sessions mixing and dialing it all in. Radio silence again. Finally heard back weeks later with, "Vocals are too wet like underwater telephone". Umm ok. I dried up the vocals for them, kept working on the song, and sent them an initial master mp3 several days ago and said I could do one more round of mix edits if they want. Nothing. At this point I just want to finish up. The long breaks in between are annoying because I'm a tweaker, so every couple of days I'll pop on the track and go, oh, I could probably lower the kick a hair, or the bass is too loud, etc. It's probably fine, but that's just the way I am. I'm sure I'll hear back in a week or something, but my artistic brain likes to move past unfinished work before I can start new stuff. The song is really cool too. Can't wait to share it when it's all approved, but this might be the longest process I've even been through on one song.
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Post by sean on Feb 21, 2024 8:30:04 GMT -6
Usually the answer is just turn up the vocal louder than you want and they’ll be happy and go away
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Post by doubledog on Feb 21, 2024 8:44:18 GMT -6
I had a guy once - and there were many signs that bad things were coming - but one day he sends me an email telling me that the drums are WAY TOO LOUD (yes in all caps). So I pull them back a bit and send another mix. Now he says I pulled them back too far and that I did it on purpose and it only went downhill from there... and quickly too. And his preferred listening device was an iPad speaker. Well, that was it for me. But it's no different than any other job. Sometimes you encounter people that are just a little "off" and it's best to move on (as quickly as possible). Life's too short.
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Post by Dan on Feb 21, 2024 9:36:36 GMT -6
Edit: I guess mostly, I just needed to rant. It's usually what I do too...but I did his first album about 3 years ago. It was a pain in the ass, and at the time, I thought that would probably be it...We've since talked a good bit and he's a nice guy - that's just a little gruff. We actually have a good bit in common. Plus, he's got a lot of work...and who wants to turn down work? I'm not really even sure where he's coming from musically when he says the board mix was more "open." Obviously, I'm going to have to figure out what he means by that... Oh - he mentioned the vocals sounded "thin." Here's the deal with that - it's through a Warm 67 and Scarlett Solo. It wouldn't particularly be that bad - but it sounds like he recorded it in his bathroom. Room reflections like crazy. So, I've had to use some de-reverb plugs as much as I can without totally screwing up the tone. But of course, that can lead to some weird artifacts - so I did the best I could. I would imagine if you guys heard these vocals, you'd tell me to run like hell. I've told part of this story on here before, but I'll get into more details here.. I worked with a "producer" who brought in a band to be recorded. He drastically underestimated the time we'd need to record as well as the cost.. So we tracked the basic instruments as quickly as possible and he said he'd be back to track more stuff later "when he had more money". Only he didn't come back. He went out and bought a mic and an interface with the money and tried to track the vocalist at his house along with some other overdub stuff. After a month or so he called me and said he was having a tough time getting stuff mixed (which was news to me since I had been waiting for him to book more time..) and he wanted me to SUGGEST to him how to fix it over the phone.. I suggested sending me the files and letting me work on it. Anyway, he protested and complained and hung up on me. A few weeks later I got an email with a link to the files and some raw mixes as guides. The vocal tracks were the worst I have EVER heard in my life. Sometimes you listen to something and you snicker a little.. But this time I felt pure pity on the vocalist. It was entirely obvious that she was not able to hear herself. It was also obvious that the room was small and completely untreated as the reflections were almost as loud as the vocals themselves were. The lawnmower outside was almost as loud as the vocals were, as was the barking dog/TV/radio in the background. The other tracks were guitar tracks that the producer recorded and wanted in the mixes as well. They were awful sounding. The playing was good but the tracking was preamp distorted to hell and the mic placement was bad. There was nothing but that shrill 2K spike. Anyway, I actually tried to rescue this stuff and I spent a week of my own time trying to do my best for this band and it was just unusable in the end. I chalked it up to learning, and I learned a lot about trying to fix severely screwed up tracks, but I couldn't fix these enough to make them usable. So I called the producer and told him that we needed to retrack the vocals at the very least, and he didn't take it well at all. "They just need some EQ" is what I was told. I explained the severe comb filtering, the noises, the background stuff, and he told me straight out that he was not going to pay for that. He'd pay me to mix the songs one time and that was all that would happen. He said that if I wanted to retrack the vocals, then I'd have to call the band and make a deal with them directly. So I called the band and told them what was going on. They were not happy at all. It turns out that the producer was telling them that I was refusing to work unless I got more money, and the producer was asking THEM to pay HIM more money to get ME to do more work. I also found out that they had been paying HIM to produce them, while he was telling me that HE was producing them for FREE. What a mess. I did offer a few hours to retrack vocals and we did eventually retrack the songs. The vocalist was just a young girl. She had never been in a studio before. She just needed some coaching. She told me that the producer wouldn't even tell her what she was doing wrong during takes and that she couldn't hear herself in the headphones and the producer didn't know how to use the gear. She also told me that the producer put her in the "vocal booth" which was essentially a tiny room with nothing else, and certainly no kinds of sound control. The end of the story was that I mixed the songs with the producer attending and it didn't go well either. The band was an indie/emo/punk sound and he wanted it all dripping with reverb and effects and so on. In the end he paid me, but nobody was happy with how it turned out. A year or so later the band contacted me to track their next album and I was told that they were super happy with how I handled the situation on the last record. They weren't happy with the results but they knew it was all about the producer and they wanted to work directly with me this time. I gave them a real sweetheart quote for the record and they were pretty happy. Never heard from them. A few months later I see them posting on FB about going into the studio to record their next album, so I thought I'd send them a message to see when exactly they wanted to come in.. Turns out they were getting recorded for "free" by another producer.. SIGH. A few months later I get a message from this band about checking out some mixes because "they don't sound good".. So I listen to their tracks and it's a shit-show much like the last time.. This time I don't even try. I just tell them they're unfixable. I get one more message that says "we should have just came to you". They broke up soon after. Vocals, only thing that lets home recording be viable are the de-reverb plugs and very specific mics, most of which are not the vintage mics people talk about on the internet or the clones of them that are usually awful. Bad guitar tracks are workable if you can hear the playing. EQ it. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 9:43:07 GMT -6
Almost all these problems stem from the gatekeepers having left the building. Back in the day you really couldn't get away with this kind of BS. Young guys knew they were on borrowed time, and that it was a privilege for them to be involved. The whole machinery ran a lot more professionally. Of course there were exceptions, but it wasn't the general rule like it is these days. It was rare to find someone recording who really didn't belong there. There was no recording "for free". And the overall level of professionalism was several rungs up the ladder from where it sits today.
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Post by teejay on Feb 21, 2024 10:00:35 GMT -6
Is he local to you? Great upsell opportunity, get ‘em in for vocal ODs. My new strategy is charge more/upsell more. Oh, you’re not happy? Maybe we should redo some of your weak tracks? No - he's in FL Vincent and Ariel are both in FL and have great mics/preamps/tracking capabilities. Huge longshot, but if he happens to live near one of them... |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 21, 2024 12:54:27 GMT -6
My great recording experiences have generally been with bands and music outside rock and roll. I’ve recorded Greek music bands, folk bands, jazz bands etc and the band/musicians show up on time, sober, gear and music perfectly prepared. Records have gone smooth as silk. Simple. No egos to deal with. I'd say that 70% of the artists I've worked with have been fine. But there's definitely a trend in whom tends to be a problem.. Younger artists and indie types. The younger generation definitely acts differently in the studio. They're a lot more emotional and a lot less structured in their lives. There is absolutely a lesser emphasis on things like being on-time. They also tend to want to "be in the moment" more which just translates to being not completely prepared.. Not always, but clients who came for the Ampex 16 track (rather than me or my partner’s skills) tended to be of the unrealistic sort. |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 21, 2024 12:55:41 GMT -6
Is he local to you? Great upsell opportunity, get ‘em in for vocal ODs. My new strategy is charge more/upsell more. Oh, you’re not happy? Maybe we should redo some of your weak tracks? No - he's in FL PITA aside, that’s great that you’re landing work that far afield. |
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Post by svart on Feb 21, 2024 14:04:31 GMT -6
I'd say that 70% of the artists I've worked with have been fine. But there's definitely a trend in whom tends to be a problem.. Younger artists and indie types. The younger generation definitely acts differently in the studio. They're a lot more emotional and a lot less structured in their lives. There is absolutely a lesser emphasis on things like being on-time. They also tend to want to "be in the moment" more which just translates to being not completely prepared.. Not always, but clients who came for the Ampex 16 track (rather than me or my partner’s skills) tended to be of the unrealistic sort. I've gotten messages like: "How much for an hour?" and I'm like "I'm 60$ an hour, 4 hours minimum" and they'll be like "DAAAMN, I just need an hour to get these 3 songs down, you're too expensive".. I had a band want to track to the 2" tape and I quoted them the studio time AND the tape costs.. They were confused why I would want to charge them 600$ for 2 tapes.. They literally said they wanted to keep the tapes afterwards, so I quoted them two new reels of tape (at my cost) and they were still confused. One of them went on ebay and found a reel of "NOS" 2" tape for 10$ and then accused me of trying to overcharge them. I had to explain "sticky-shed" to them and they thought I was just making it up. I also had another band want to record to tape but then they asked why they'd be limited to 24 tracks.. "Because there's only 24 tracks on the tape" as I explained to them.. They were confused as to why I couldn't just add more tracks like in a DAW. Turns out they had never even seen a tape machine before and didn't even know how they worked. They thought it was like a DAW somehow. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2024 14:32:22 GMT -6
PITA aside, that’s great that you’re landing work that far afield. Hell, I'm the king of country music in CA. lol. Also - I seem to be the producer-du jour for the...ahem...more right leaning northerners...no idea why. Maybe because I'll do it lol. I'm equal opportunity, though. I did a track called "Queen of NYC" about AOC. The money was green. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2024 14:35:08 GMT -6
I've told part of this story on here before, but I'll get into more details here.. ... They broke up soon after. Vocals, only thing that lets home recording be viable are the de-reverb plugs and very specific mics, most of which are not the vintage mics people talk about on the internet or the clones of them that are usually awful. Bad guitar tracks are workable if you can hear the playing. EQ it. I'm seriously just going to suggest SM7's from now on. Hard to screw up and not a top end nightmare. BTW - out of all the de-reverb plugs I tried, I really thought the SPL was the best. It's $9.99 right now. Basically just part of the Transient designer. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2024 14:37:46 GMT -6
Almost all these problems stem from the gatekeepers having left the building. Back in the day you really couldn't get away with this kind of BS. Young guys knew they were on borrowed time, and that it was a privilege for them to be involved. The whole machinery ran a lot more professionally. Of course there were exceptions, but it wasn't the general rule like it is these days. It was rare to find someone recording who really didn't belong there. There was no recording "for free". And the overall level of professionalism was several rungs up the ladder from where it sits today. Yeah...the law of unintended consequences. Now the labels make twice as much, have more power and pay for basically nothing. No A&R anymore...you do most of the marketing and they cash in by taking the marketing to a higher level and owning the masters. Shit - maybe we need to start thinking about starting just plain marketing companies that focus only on that and take less of your money. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 14:44:19 GMT -6
Not always, but clients who came for the Ampex 16 track (rather than me or my partner’s skills) tended to be of the unrealistic sort. I've gotten messages like: "How much for an hour?" and I'm like "I'm 60$ an hour, 4 hours minimum" and they'll be like "DAAAMN, I just need an hour to get these 3 songs down, you're too expensive".. I had a band want to track to the 2" tape and I quoted them the studio time AND the tape costs.. They were confused why I would want to charge them 600$ for 2 tapes.. They literally said they wanted to keep the tapes afterwards, so I quoted them two new reels of tape (at my cost) and they were still confused. One of them went on ebay and found a reel of "NOS" 2" tape for 10$ and then accused me of trying to overcharge them. I had to explain "sticky-shed" to them and they thought I was just making it up. I also had another band want to record to tape but then they asked why they'd be limited to 24 tracks.. "Because there's only 24 tracks on the tape" as I explained to them.. They were confused as to why I couldn't just add more tracks like in a DAW. Turns out they had never even seen a tape machine before and didn't even know how they worked. They thought it was like a DAW somehow. Ignorant wannabes. These are exactly the kind of clients that get a polite hangup. If they even question my hourly, I ask how much the dealership charges for a tire rotation, oil change or brake service ($200hr). Then I tell them I am CERTAINLY too expensive for them. If they show obvious signs of zero knowledge of recording? I am obviously NOT the person they want. If you (and I'm speak rhetorically - not directly to YOU svart)  take on these type clients, you are asking for all these headaches you abhor. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2024 14:45:51 GMT -6
Not always, but clients who came for the Ampex 16 track (rather than me or my partner’s skills) tended to be of the unrealistic sort. I've gotten messages like: "How much for an hour?" and I'm like "I'm 60$ an hour, 4 hours minimum" and they'll be like "DAAAMN, I just need an hour to get these 3 songs down, you're too expensive".. I had a band want to track to the 2" tape and I quoted them the studio time AND the tape costs.. They were confused why I would want to charge them 600$ for 2 tapes.. They literally said they wanted to keep the tapes afterwards, so I quoted them two new reels of tape (at my cost) and they were still confused. One of them went on ebay and found a reel of "NOS" 2" tape for 10$ and then accused me of trying to overcharge them. I had to explain "sticky-shed" to them and they thought I was just making it up. I also had another band want to record to tape but then they asked why they'd be limited to 24 tracks.. "Because there's only 24 tracks on the tape" as I explained to them.. They were confused as to why I couldn't just add more tracks like in a DAW. Turns out they had never even seen a tape machine before and didn't even know how they worked. They thought it was like a DAW somehow. It's so weird, isn't it? It must be the old nugget that "people in the music industry will screw you!" SOME people are shocked when I tell them how much it costs to have 5 professional musicians, an engineer, a studio, then me to mix and master. That's 7 people to pay...by the end of projects I've usually spent three hours (plus commutes to the studio), most likely around 3 hours for mixing (could be more could be less) and then fielding their emails at night and on the weekends. So lets say I net (bring home) $600 for a song. That's $100/hour for Producing, Tracking, Mixing and Mastering. I don't argue with the mechanic about pricing...I don't call Purdue pharma and ask why a drug costs what it costs...and I'm probably underpaying myself. But alas - there is nothing else I could do to make $100/hour. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2024 14:47:46 GMT -6
I've gotten messages like: "How much for an hour?" and I'm like "I'm 60$ an hour, 4 hours minimum" and they'll be like "DAAAMN, I just need an hour to get these 3 songs down, you're too expensive".. I had a band want to track to the 2" tape and I quoted them the studio time AND the tape costs.. They were confused why I would want to charge them 600$ for 2 tapes.. They literally said they wanted to keep the tapes afterwards, so I quoted them two new reels of tape (at my cost) and they were still confused. One of them went on ebay and found a reel of "NOS" 2" tape for 10$ and then accused me of trying to overcharge them. I had to explain "sticky-shed" to them and they thought I was just making it up. I also had another band want to record to tape but then they asked why they'd be limited to 24 tracks.. "Because there's only 24 tracks on the tape" as I explained to them.. They were confused as to why I couldn't just add more tracks like in a DAW. Turns out they had never even seen a tape machine before and didn't even know how they worked. They thought it was like a DAW somehow. Ignorant wannabes. These are exactly the kind of clients that get a polite hangup. If they even question my hourly, I ask how much the dealership charges for a tire rotation, oil change or brake service ($200hr). Then I tell them I am CERTAINLY too expensive for them. If they show obvious signs of zero knowledge of recording? I am obviously NOT the person they want. If you (and I'm speak rhetorically - not directly to YOU svart) take on these type clients, you are asking for all these headaches you abhor. But oh yeah - you're right. I suss people out for the most part and if I get the sense that they think they know more than me or...well - they all tend to give off the same vibe...I pass. Actually, this guy is someone I have thought I should have passed on several times because it hasn't been as easy as some of my clients. But I've gotten to know him a bit and he's a super interesting guy. Sold his energy company in the Northeast and now lives amongst the glitterati in Florida. He's older, gruff, a recording luddite, no-nonsense...(but I think has finally accepted that he's not going to sound like all of his favorite Stones songs)...all the the warning signs...but I'm glad I've gotten to know him. And he's paid me a lot of money. So, I guess it's a case by case you just have to feel out. And when it goes wrong, you can't let that bring you down. In the past when I've had bad experiences, it made me feel bad about myself...but I've gotten to where I really don't let it bring me down anymore. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 21, 2024 15:16:44 GMT -6
If he was in town, I would ask him to come by and listen to two mixes to help choose the"better" one. His "open" probably means less instrumentation somewhere. Fortunately the few album mixes I've done are for people who know what they're doing. So they can offer helpful suggestions, not vague remarks.
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take on these type clients, you are asking for all these headaches you abhor.