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Post by pahstah on Feb 7, 2024 11:16:46 GMT -6
I just want to add this to the discussion: it's interesting how the industry alway tries to dictate the path that the consumers must follow and then the consumers deviate from that path in a way that the industry never considered in the first place. I don't know if you ever stumbled upon  /12D/24D/music on YouTube, here's an example: If you listen with headphones you'll hear sounds going from left to right and back to left again, if you listen with apple earbuds through an iPhone with new OS the sound should describe a circle around and above your head. My point is that this ism't obviously what Atmos is supposed to sound, but this YouTubers decided that this is what people would like to listen with the new AirPods, from what I can read in the comment's section of the video people like this new approach. Paolo P.S. Jimi Hendrix did the same in the sixties although in a more sophisticated manner: |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 9, 2024 0:51:52 GMT -6
Not to sound like a broken record, but MUSIC LISTENERS DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BEYOND STERO. Quad didn't take off in the 70s. SACD 5.1 didn't take off in the 00s and Atmos ain't taking off in the 20s. It's cool in theatre where there's a visual that Atmos can make you feel "immersed" but that's not what music listeners have EVER asked for, or jumped on when offered.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 9, 2024 10:24:46 GMT -6
Not to sound like a broken record, but MUSIC LISTENERS DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BEYOND STERO. Quad didn't take off in the 70s. SACD 5.1 didn't take off in the 00s and Atmos ain't taking off in the 20s. It's cool in theatre where there's a visual that Atmos can make you feel "immersed" but that's not what music listeners have EVER asked for, or jumped on when offered. The only way a music surround format will ever be anything but a blip on the radar is if at the time of the formats release there are a ton of quality releases that demonstrate what the format can bring to the table across all genres, not a promise of but actual releases. The problem going back to quad has always been exactly what draws manufacturers to these formats, the cost of entry. I need how many matching speakers and amplification? I need to be able to position these speakers where? Video surround for consumers has found a nice niche in the world of dedicated home theaters, but what nobody seams to understand is music is more often than not consumed in the background. That positioning of the lead vocal might sound awesome on a dedicated Atmos system, but folded down to stereo or mono for background in the kitchen it can almost completely disappear. The hardest part of mixing pop for surround is making everyone understand I don’t always want to listen to Darkside of the moon or Petsounds. |
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Post by mcirish on Feb 9, 2024 11:39:15 GMT -6
Until there is a cheap way for the end-listener to hear Atmos in all it's glory, I think it's a waste of money. I hear a lot of on-line engineers talking about how great it is. No doubt, it sounds great in THEIR ROOM. But, no one else will ever hear it that way. I honestly don't see the point. It's just another money-grab IMHO. I have not had a single artist ask for an Atmos mix. Heck, most of them can barely pay for any studio time to create a good stereo mix. What would they listen to an Atmos mix on?
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Post by christopher on Feb 9, 2024 12:01:41 GMT -6
I just want to add this to the discussion: it's interesting how the industry alway tries to dictate the path that the consumers must follow and then the consumers deviate from that path in a way that the industry never considered in the first place. I don't know if you ever stumbled upon /12D/24D/music on YouTube, here's an example: If you listen with headphones you'll hear sounds going from left to right and back to left again, if you listen with apple earbuds through an iPhone with new OS the sound should describe a circle around and above your head. My point is that this ism't obviously what Atmos is supposed to sound, but this YouTubers decided that this is what people would like to listen with the new AirPods, from what I can read in the comment's section of the video people like this new approach. Paolo P.S. Jimi Hendrix did the same in the sixties although in a more sophisticated manner: This is how it should be used if you are mixing for Atmos. You can create such an experience that is radically different from stereo. This is the first time for surround that the consumer’s environment and system aren’t a concern of the Mixing engineer. Everyone will hear it the same way... (AirPods)You can be creative, it’s ok. I also agree there is zero demand! Nobody is asking for this. Mainly because nobody big is taking big risks with the format. It’s boring, like hearing speakers in a room. They need a huge pimp/ho on the top 100 to go total nuts, Peppers style, so that you can’t listen to their release any other way. Apple would probably have to fund it, and it would probably still fail, but push the needle a bit. And yeah the stereo fold down is BS.. tolerable at best. Public won’t care and use it at weddings anyway |
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2024 17:50:09 GMT -6
The only way a music surround format will ever be anything but a blip on the radar is if at the time of the formats release there are a ton of quality releases that demonstrate what the format can bring to the table across all genres, not a promise of but actual releases. Well....that sure didn't happen. Most of the releases (all?) arguably suck compared to the stereo mix. So I guess they broke Eric's Law, and are no doubt bound for obscurity alongside dolby and quad. |
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Feb 9, 2024 21:44:10 GMT -6
Not gonna lie reading all these responses and comments is almost cathartic to me. I feel like on instagram or elsewhere I see yet another engineer advertising they've just received shipment of 14 boxes containing all these speakers to "complete my new atmos room". It feels like everyone is all gas and no brakes on this whole atmos thing; and I have watched from my little corner (so to speak) and still scratching my head as to who the f*ck is actually even listening to music in this format.
Most engineer friends i know who work professionally are sorta in the same state of mind. We all work professionally. But I feel like labels are dumping money into having their back catalogue updated to include atmos and some engineers have more work than they know what to do with as a result. But none of this translates to the consumer. Just a small one-way economy that is the labels putting money into mix engineer's pockets. Am I wrong?
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Post by Hudsonic on Feb 10, 2024 6:27:58 GMT -6
The same surround engineer mafia members push ATMOS, ATMOS, ATMOS. West coast narcissist mastering men crow in seminars about their immersive mixes. Bearded Civil war soldier look-alikes opine about best practices. Grubs and greasy-haired unwashed engineers stand up in front of under 40 home engineers. The rooms where they are presenting their work are packed at an AES show. Their presentations are filled with inside jokes, back slapping to other fraternity bros. doing immersive; all the while cursing about low fees paid by labels.
Then they offer that you too can do it with an upmixing plug-in.
Big companies like Dolby and Apple use the BUDWEISER advertising strategy. That is where they buy up ALL the advertising in order to leave competitors unable to advertise--because every magazine page, web page, social media front facing page has been sold to one advertiser--Dolby and their ATMOS push. No more advertising space available to AURO-3D, Sony 360, and any others.
ATMOS--its home is in the movie theater.
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Post by pahstah on Feb 10, 2024 6:29:22 GMT -6
Alright, I'll try to explain my thinking better: while I agree with you in believing that the industry is trying to sell more gear to audio engineers with Atmos without a real outcome at the consumer's end, I also think that the audio engineers and the music creators should be aware of the new possibilities that today's technology and the internet offer and take the chance to innovate freely, to experiment and be the leaders of the changing not the followers. On YouTube there are examples: songs slowed down and washed with reverbs, mashups, 12d 24d audio, "that famous song" but 1 hour long. With the new audio ai apps that can extrapolate any instrument from a song, everybody can make an Atmos mix of the song you mixed in stereo only... I think I'd be pissed to open YouTube tomorrow and hear a song that I mixed in stereo ( or one of my songs mixed by somebody else in stereo) mixed in immersive by some content creator. Paolo |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 10, 2024 9:13:36 GMT -6
The same surround engineer mafia members push ATMOS, ATMOS, ATMOS. West coast narcissist mastering men crow in seminars about their immersive mixes. Bearded Civil war soldier look-alikes opine about best practices. Grubs and greasy-haired unwashed engineers stand up in front of under 40 home engineers. The rooms where they are presenting their work are packed at an AES show. Their presentations are filled with inside jokes, back slapping to other fraternity bros. doing immersive; all the while cursing about low fees paid by labels. Then they offer that you too can do it with an upmixing plug-in. Big companies like Dolby and Apple use the BUDWEISER advertising strategy. That is where they buy up ALL the advertising in order to leave competitors unable to advertise--because every magazine page, web page, social media front facing page has been sold to one advertiser--Dolby and their ATMOS push. No more advertising space available to AURO-3D, Sony 360, and any others. ATMOS--its home is in the movie theater. You forgot the part where those who are pushing it are bought paid and pampered by Dolby and their partners. What I have never understood is nobody at Dolby ever said “ you know maybe we should partner with Bose during the early development stages, they sure know how to up sell consumers”. Written from the former office of AMC theaters CFO! |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 10, 2024 18:56:42 GMT -6
Not gonna lie reading all these responses and comments is almost cathartic to me. I feel like on instagram or elsewhere I see yet another engineer advertising they've just received shipment of 14 boxes containing all these speakers to "complete my new atmos room". It feels like everyone is all gas and no brakes on this whole atmos thing; and I have watched from my little corner (so to speak) and still scratching my head as to who the f*ck is actually even listening to music in this format. Most engineer friends i know who work professionally are sorta in the same state of mind. We all work professionally. But I feel like labels are dumping money into having their back catalogue updated to include atmos and some engineers have more work than they know what to do with as a result. But none of this translates to the consumer. Just a small one-way economy that is the labels putting money into mix engineer's pockets. Am I wrong? I know a very heavy hitter in Nashville who converted his room to add ATMOS a couple of years ago. WHen I saw him a few months after he did it, I was able to ask him how he liked it. His answer: "It's no fun, the studio took a big write off, though." ATMOS--its home is in the movie theater. THIS!!! |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 10, 2024 19:38:03 GMT -6
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 10, 2024 20:32:53 GMT -6
On the gatekeeping front from a smaller artists perspective - will there be inexpensive ways to provide atmos mixes from stereo mixes? Or even a few stems? Is a plugin from TDR or voxengo for this purpose confirmed?
If so it would seem like everyone who cant afford extra engineer costs would go that route - nullifying any gatekeeping chess move from the record labels if that is whats happening and its not just apple trying to sell more products.
I think if spotify offers some sort of royalty extra pay for atmos then it will be clear that the labels are trying to gatekeep, but apple doing it is most likely just be them trying to sell more of their atmos offering products
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 11, 2024 9:13:25 GMT -6
A Grammy wining engineer friend of mine who every one here definitely knows mixed one his Grammy albums in atmos….using headphones in binaural with no special equipment. And it sounds great.
No…I don’t think lack of access to a “proper” atmos facility will gatekeep anyone.
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Post by seawell on Feb 11, 2024 9:46:56 GMT -6
A Grammy wining engineer friend of mine who every one here definitely knows mixed one his Grammy albums in atmos….using headphones in binaural with no special equipment. And it sounds great. No…I don’t think lack of access to a “proper” atmos facility will gatekeep anyone. That’s the way I do it & I think the best way to do it actually because for most consumers, that’s how they are going to hear it. Plus, you’ve already figured out all the difficult stuff on your monitors/stereo mix 👍🏻 |
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Post by drumsound on Feb 11, 2024 10:28:03 GMT -6
A Grammy wining engineer friend of mine who every one here definitely knows mixed one his Grammy albums in atmos….using headphones in binaural with no special equipment. And it sounds great. No…I don’t think lack of access to a “proper” atmos facility will gatekeep anyone. That’s the way I do it & I think the best way to do it actually because for most consumers, that’s how they are going to hear it. Plus, you’ve already figured out all the difficult stuff on your monitors/stereo mix 👍🏻 Does that mean you completing a stereo mix, on monitors as usual, and then putting on impressive headphones and doing some placements things to make it ATMOSy? |
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Post by pahstah on Feb 11, 2024 15:31:37 GMT -6
He's right  |
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 11, 2024 21:01:01 GMT -6
A Grammy wining engineer friend of mine who every one here definitely knows mixed one his Grammy albums in atmos….using headphones in binaural with no special equipment. And it sounds great. No…I don’t think lack of access to a “proper” atmos facility will gatekeep anyone. That’s the way I do it & I think the best way to do it actually because for most consumers, that’s how they are going to hear it. Plus, you’ve already figured out all the difficult stuff on your monitors/stereo mix 👍🏻 Precisely the thinking of my unnamed buddy |
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 11, 2024 21:02:13 GMT -6
That’s the way I do it & I think the best way to do it actually because for most consumers, that’s how they are going to hear it. Plus, you’ve already figured out all the difficult stuff on your monitors/stereo mix 👍🏻 Does that mean you completing a stereo mix, on monitors as usual, and then putting on impressive headphones and doing some placements things to make it ATMOSy? Yep exactly, except he doesn’t use “immersive” headphones. That’s just a marketing gimmick. He just uses “headphone” headphones. |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 13, 2024 7:43:37 GMT -6
I’ve been doing a lot of messing around on headphones the last week, especially some weird recording ideas for mic placements and stuff to try and play into the binaural renderer. Made some really cool headway, lots of “this still sounds like crap” moments 😂. Like most of you are pointing out in here, I don’t think any of this matters if we can’t figure out a way to make this sound good on headphones. My biggest realization was mixing strait to the bed (instead of objects) and varying the binaural distance settings for various speaker sets. I was getting much better results keeping the front speakers as “off” (which maintained all your normal stereo translation if you kept most stuff at the front) and varying placement on some things like room mics. Although I got some good results, I still have two big concerns:
1: None of this matters because even if I “figure this out” 😂 and get great results, the binaural render is still going to sound different on Apple Music since they don’t take into account any of the binaural distance data and use their own proprietary binaural render. It’s their whole spacial audio gimmick. Getting those binaural distance settings right on the bed speakers was a big thing to me and for the first time, I was getting results that I thought were moving me in the right direction. If I lean on that being a big part of how I record and mix stuff for Atmos, it’s never going to translate on Apple Music. Only Tidal and Amazon…
2: At some point, the binaural render algorithm is going to be improved (or at least changed). What happens then? It’s hypothetical, because we have no idea. I know it’s not what any of us want to hear, but that’s why it’s important that you have a speaker setup as well. If Dolbys intention is to keep improving the binaural render to make it as close to speakers in the room, relying solely on headphones isn’t best practice or doing clients any favors if you’re going to offer this service professionally.
Number 2 is going to open up a can of worm, I’m sure… I’m not stating that as gospel, that’s just my thought process as of now. It could turn out that I’m blowing the whole binaural render thing out of proportion and the “updates” over time aren’t going to be drastic. I’m “pro headphone” if we’re going to start making camps. I think ultimately it’s the most important part of making this work. I want to put more time and effort into figuring this out and focusing on the headphone aspect, but at the same time, again, Apple is sticking to their guns and is going to muck up the ONE part of this thing that needed to be absolutely universal in the process. It’s a joke that they were even able to get certified as “Atmos” while using their own proprietary render. The more I get into this, the more apparent it is that Dolby doesn’t give a crap and is in it for the money. They should have told Apple to go pound sand and had an Atmos vs Spacial brawl.
I don’t know… The biggest frustration is that regardless of all of that, it doesn’t mean any of this is going away because it’s fundamentally flawed. It just means a lot more future headaches for all of us. This whole debacle is the new “mono translation” conundrum essentially, just much more complex.
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Post by bluesholyman on Feb 13, 2024 10:15:24 GMT -6
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Post by seawell on Feb 13, 2024 10:49:41 GMT -6
I’ve been doing a lot of messing around on headphones the last week, especially some weird recording ideas for mic placements and stuff to try and play into the binaural renderer. Made some really cool headway, lots of “this still sounds like crap” moments 😂. Like most of you are pointing out in here, I don’t think any of this matters if we can’t figure out a way to make this sound good on headphones. My biggest realization was mixing strait to the bed (instead of objects) and varying the binaural distance settings for various speaker sets. I was getting much better results keeping the front speakers as “off” (which maintained all your normal stereo translation if you kept most stuff at the front) and varying placement on some things like room mics. Although I got some good results, I still have two big concerns: 1: None of this matters because even if I “figure this out” 😂 and get great results, the binaural render is still going to sound different on Apple Music since they don’t take into account any of the binaural distance data and use their own proprietary binaural render. It’s their whole spacial audio gimmick. Getting those binaural distance settings right on the bed speakers was a big thing to me and for the first time, I was getting results that I thought were moving me in the right direction. If I lean on that being a big part of how I record and mix stuff for Atmos, it’s never going to translate on Apple Music. Only Tidal and Amazon… 2: At some point, the binaural render algorithm is going to be improved (or at least changed). What happens then? It’s hypothetical, because we have no idea. I know it’s not what any of us want to hear, but that’s why it’s important that you have a speaker setup as well. If Dolbys intention is to keep improving the binaural render to make it as close to speakers in the room, relying solely on headphones isn’t best practice or doing clients any favors if you’re going to offer this service professionally. Number 2 is going to open up a can of worm, I’m sure… I’m not stating that as gospel, that’s just my thought process as of now. It could turn out that I’m blowing the whole binaural render thing out of proportion and the “updates” over time aren’t going to be drastic. I’m “pro headphone” if we’re going to start making camps. I think ultimately it’s the most important part of making this work. I want to put more time and effort into figuring this out and focusing on the headphone aspect, but at the same time, again, Apple is sticking to their guns and is going to muck up the ONE part of this thing that needed to be absolutely universal in the process. It’s a joke that they were even able to get certified as “Atmos” while using their own proprietary render. The more I get into this, the more apparent it is that Dolby doesn’t give a crap and is in it for the money. They should have told Apple to go pound sand and had an Atmos vs Spacial brawl. I don’t know… The biggest frustration is that regardless of all of that, it doesn’t mean any of this is going away because it’s fundamentally flawed. It just means a lot more future headaches for all of us. This whole debacle is the new “mono translation” conundrum essentially, just much more complex. I feel your pain dude! I go back & forth between thinking it's cool to cursing the whole thing's existence. One thing that you may want to try is the immersive virtual studio software. You can set it up to monitor Apple Spatial Audio, Dolby Binaural Renderer and the original stereo mix. embody.co/pages/ivs-apple-musicThe thing is about an expensive or "proper" Atmos rig is that most all of the work I'm hearing that was done on those set ups doesn't sound good in Apple Music either so my philosophy of trying to really push myself on headphones isn't just to save money, I think that may be the actual best way to do this when it's all said and done. |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 13, 2024 11:05:49 GMT -6
I’ve been doing a lot of messing around on headphones the last week, especially some weird recording ideas for mic placements and stuff to try and play into the binaural renderer. Made some really cool headway, lots of “this still sounds like crap” moments 😂. Like most of you are pointing out in here, I don’t think any of this matters if we can’t figure out a way to make this sound good on headphones. My biggest realization was mixing strait to the bed (instead of objects) and varying the binaural distance settings for various speaker sets. I was getting much better results keeping the front speakers as “off” (which maintained all your normal stereo translation if you kept most stuff at the front) and varying placement on some things like room mics. Although I got some good results, I still have two big concerns: 1: None of this matters because even if I “figure this out” 😂 and get great results, the binaural render is still going to sound different on Apple Music since they don’t take into account any of the binaural distance data and use their own proprietary binaural render. It’s their whole spacial audio gimmick. Getting those binaural distance settings right on the bed speakers was a big thing to me and for the first time, I was getting results that I thought were moving me in the right direction. If I lean on that being a big part of how I record and mix stuff for Atmos, it’s never going to translate on Apple Music. Only Tidal and Amazon… 2: At some point, the binaural render algorithm is going to be improved (or at least changed). What happens then? It’s hypothetical, because we have no idea. I know it’s not what any of us want to hear, but that’s why it’s important that you have a speaker setup as well. If Dolbys intention is to keep improving the binaural render to make it as close to speakers in the room, relying solely on headphones isn’t best practice or doing clients any favors if you’re going to offer this service professionally. Number 2 is going to open up a can of worm, I’m sure… I’m not stating that as gospel, that’s just my thought process as of now. It could turn out that I’m blowing the whole binaural render thing out of proportion and the “updates” over time aren’t going to be drastic. I’m “pro headphone” if we’re going to start making camps. I think ultimately it’s the most important part of making this work. I want to put more time and effort into figuring this out and focusing on the headphone aspect, but at the same time, again, Apple is sticking to their guns and is going to muck up the ONE part of this thing that needed to be absolutely universal in the process. It’s a joke that they were even able to get certified as “Atmos” while using their own proprietary render. The more I get into this, the more apparent it is that Dolby doesn’t give a crap and is in it for the money. They should have told Apple to go pound sand and had an Atmos vs Spacial brawl. I don’t know… The biggest frustration is that regardless of all of that, it doesn’t mean any of this is going away because it’s fundamentally flawed. It just means a lot more future headaches for all of us. This whole debacle is the new “mono translation” conundrum essentially, just much more complex. I feel your pain dude! I go back & forth between thinking it's cool to cursing the whole thing's existence. One thing that you may want to try is the immersive virtual studio software. You can set it up to monitor Apple Spatial Audio, Dolby Binaural Renderer and the original stereo mix. www.steinberg.net/immerse-virtual-studio/The thing is about an expensive or "proper" Atmos rig is that most all of the work I'm hearing that was done on those set ups doesn't sound good in Apple Music either so my philosophy of trying to really push myself on headphones isn't just to save money, I think that may be the actual best way to do this when it's all said and done. I'll check out the Steinberg plugin, thanks! I havn't gotten that far yet, but started looking for plugins to let me monitor the Apple Spacial Audio render. That looks like a good option. I'm on the lookout for a good deal on some Airpods as well, I want to start exploring all of that soon. |
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Post by seawell on Feb 13, 2024 13:51:48 GMT -6
I feel your pain dude! I go back & forth between thinking it's cool to cursing the whole thing's existence. One thing that you may want to try is the immersive virtual studio software. You can set it up to monitor Apple Spatial Audio, Dolby Binaural Renderer and the original stereo mix. www.steinberg.net/immerse-virtual-studio/The thing is about an expensive or "proper" Atmos rig is that most all of the work I'm hearing that was done on those set ups doesn't sound good in Apple Music either so my philosophy of trying to really push myself on headphones isn't just to save money, I think that may be the actual best way to do this when it's all said and done. I'll check out the Steinberg plugin, thanks! I havn't gotten that far yet, but started looking for plugins to let me monitor the Apple Spacial Audio render. That looks like a good option. I'm on the lookout for a good deal on some Airpods as well, I want to start exploring all of that soon. I think the link I initially posted was just the standard version, sorry about that! This is the signature edition that added Spatial Audio: embody.co/pages/ivs-apple-musicThere is a 30 day trial 👍🏼 |
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Post by audiospecific on Feb 14, 2024 7:46:49 GMT -6
I just want to add this to the discussion: it's interesting how the industry alway tries to dictate the path that the consumers must follow and then the consumers deviate from that path in a way that the industry never considered in the first place. I don't know if you ever stumbled upon /12D/24D/music on YouTube, here's an example: If you listen with headphones you'll hear sounds going from left to right and back to left again, if you listen with apple earbuds through an iPhone with new OS the sound should describe a circle around and above your head. My point is that this ism't obviously what Atmos is supposed to sound, but this YouTubers decided that this is what people would like to listen with the new AirPods, from what I can read in the comment's section of the video people like this new approach. Its sound is not new. Its called a stereo auto pan. It sounds like they used that circuit mixed with mono reverb. here is one of several out there. musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth_new/STEREOPANNER/STEREOPANNER.html As far as the Jimi Hendrix song, that was a real composition instead of a pan effect plugin or hardware. |
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/12D/24D/music on YouTube, here's an example:
