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Post by wendelgee2 on Feb 1, 2024 17:54:13 GMT -6
Lots of emphasis out there on getting a great lead vocal sound, but curious to hear if folks have gear choices or recording techniques specifically for background vocals.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 1, 2024 18:04:49 GMT -6
It depends on the flow of the session, the singer(s), and the importance of the part. Sometimes it's just much simpler to keep whatever mic is up and being used, and just adjust height/gain for different singers. The flow of creativity is sometimes more important. If there's time and a record is meant to be vocal heavy, I'll often spend more time getting mic/chain differences for each singer. Sometimes I'll use a different mic for background when they are sung by the same person, or I'll have them literally back up 2 steps. Maybe use the highpass for the BV.
If there's time and lots of vocal talent I'll cut individual parts AND have the singers sing together. Sometimes doing the Queen thing of all singers on the low, mid, and high for a different type of blend.
Hell, last week I had a guy want to do a metal "UUH" and I had 2 mics set side by side and I had him do it 4 times so that 8 thacks of vocal noise...
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 1, 2024 18:10:15 GMT -6
Lots of different styles depending on the type and preference of background vocal. To me I usually want BGV's to sound blended and far away and the easiest way to do that is to sing further from the mic. If I'm not in a room where I can get away with being like 4' off mic, at least a foot or two in omni for zero proximity effect.
That's my approach to tracking.
Then for mixing it's a matter of making sure it's hiding under the vocal. If it's a good arrangement this kind of takes care of itself but some EQ cuts could be in order if I screwed up on the mic capture. Obviously I'm slash and burn on HPF... close your eyes and don't look at that number, keep moving that filter up until you can hear it damage the take, sometimes that's crazy high.
Beyond that, I try to avoid compression or anything that would make it sound "cool" and I'm not afraid to load up on the time-based effects.
Number one tip? Get the level balance right. Too loud is annoying because it cries for attention. Too soft is annoying because it cries for attention, just in a different way.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 1, 2024 18:11:19 GMT -6
To clarify, I think of BGV different than "harmony" vocal. BGV to me is "oooh's" and "ahhh's" or maybe some call and response R&B stuff. Tight harmonies are a totally different matter.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 1, 2024 18:23:31 GMT -6
Lots of different styles depending on the type and preference of background vocal. To me I usually want BGV's to sound blended and far away and the easiest way to do that is to sing further from the mic. If I'm not in a room where I can get away with being like 4' off mic, at least a foot or two in omni for zero proximity effect. That's my approach to tracking. Then for mixing it's a matter of making sure it's hiding under the vocal. If it's a good arrangement this kind of takes care of itself but some EQ cuts could be in order if I screwed up on the mic capture. Obviously I'm slash and burn on HPF... close your eyes and don't look at that number, keep moving that filter up until you can hear it dammage the take, sometimes that's crazy high.Beyond that, I try to avoid compression or anything that would make it sound "cool" and I'm not afraid to load up on the time-based effects. Number one tip? Get the level balance right. Too loud is annoying because it cries for attention. Too soft is annoying because it cries for attention, just in a different way. Great post in general. to the bold/underlined section  To clarify, I think of BGV different than "harmony" vocal. BGV to me is "oooh's" and "ahhh's" or maybe some call and response R&B stuff. Tight harmonies are a totally different matter. Interesting. For me they are all background. Track sheets/PT names will have things like "OOOOOs" "AAHS" etc but als BV Hi, BV Low, Dave Harmony, etc. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 1, 2024 19:07:13 GMT -6
More than once, over the years... The EV 635a has been mentioned as a very nice BGV mic. IMHO the $100 or so(!!) AKG P120, also falls in that category. $leeper. Good 3rd or even 2nd String mic.  Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 20:04:26 GMT -6
Melodyne and compress the crap out of it, some time based effects? Small bit of verb decay but not too much to say heyy. C'est magnifique..
Oh c'mon, it's 2024 not 1957.. Which also means there's usually a chain of about 10 - 20 plugs doing different things.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 1, 2024 20:38:12 GMT -6
More than once, over the years... The EV 635a has been mentioned as a very nice BGV mic. IMHO the $100 or so(!!) AKG P120, also falls in that category. $leeper. Good 3rd or even 2nd String mic. Chris I love that mic for BGV. Maybe I just like omni for BGV. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 1, 2024 20:40:25 GMT -6
Melodyne and compress the crap out of it, some time based effects? Small bit of verb decay but not too much to say heyy. C'est magnifique..
Oh c'mon, it's 2024 not 1957.. Which also means there's usually a chain of about 10 - 20 plugs doing different things.
Oh yeah. Not shy about Melodyne either. Very careful about pitch correction on lead vocals because I think you lose the humanity, but on backgrounds or harmonies, all that goes out the window. And maybe I should clarify something I said earlier, I tried to avoid any type of "cool" compression or anything that would add presence. But basic leveling and transparent compression, yeah all day long. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 1, 2024 20:41:54 GMT -6
Well it all depends on if they can sing or not…
If they can, throw them around a single mic like the pics of the Beatles, beach boys, queen etc and make them do it three times and pick the best one.
If they can’t sing, have them each do it once and melodyne the shit out of it or pay people to come in and sing.
I’ve personally got no patience for non singers that want to do bgvs. You get one warm up take and a real take then you can gtfo so I can tune your crap and on to the next. Used to be I’d sit there for hours if it was an hourly rate and do take after take after take but honestly…. I’d rather just do one take, tune it, spare myself the aggravation and go spend time with my wife.
Harsh but true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 20:54:07 GMT -6
If they can’t sing, have them each do it once and melodyne the shit out of it or pay people to come in and sing. I don't even think it's about that anymore, I've tracked stunningly great singers well on point at nearly every turn who demand tuning because of the sound it gives. As it stands right know IME it's just another production tool like a compressor. I've always said this, it's ironic that if you are a crap singer Melodyne or Autotune makes it ten times more obvious.. You can retake to oblivion and patch to make something sound decent but that takes a lot of effort and we wouldn't want to do that nowaday's would we?
So, they just say oh yeah the robotic sound is what I was going for like anyway cause it compliments my artistic vision or some shit.. Ha, sure it was. I've never heard a perfect singer, I don't think they exist and no track from the 60's / 70's or 80's hath convinced me otherwise but most pro's are impressive. The schedule today is fake music with fake vocals no matter how good they are, the only difference is the production doesn't affect the good one's as much. I love the beauty of massively induced and produced high fidelity scapes but it does lose its human element, I adore specific types of modern music but some days I just want some Moody Blue's to settle the soul. We all differ though..
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Post by ab101 on Feb 1, 2024 21:17:54 GMT -6
I need to try omni more often. I would think my Heiserman 47t would be great on BGV in omni, though I have success in cardioid. I appreciate the great posts here. I really need to get the Heiserman 48.
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Post by kristoferharris on Feb 2, 2024 11:03:41 GMT -6
Good topic. I tend to LPF BVs quite heavily. They rarely need the same airy extension as an LV, unless heard on their own in call/response manner. It's good to keep all of that spitty top end for the LV.
I'll also go heavy on a multi-band comp to pin in or invert any build-ups. Super effective when there are loads of takes and the 600-800 range starts to pile up. Same for de-essing. Very heavy handed on BVs, where as I may not use one on an LV.
But as mentioned before, less 'cool' processing such as quick release compressors. I'll always save the in your face processing for the leads.
I'm not that fussed about using separate mics for LVs and BVs when tracking, as I know I'll be approaching the mix processing from different angles.
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Post by robo on Feb 2, 2024 11:22:50 GMT -6
Good subject and posts!
635a is on the short list for me too. Recently also enjoying the BU69/269 (old school mode) as it can sit nicely in the track behind something tracked with a U47/M49-style mic, but it has plenty of air to boost if needed. I always try to keep a couple of mics up during vocal sessions, so we can use an alternate character for BV’s and doubles.
In general, I like a good amount of smoother, slow-release compression on BV’s. Keep them nestled in the track, and keep the faster compression for the lead to pin it to the front.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 2, 2024 11:30:38 GMT -6
Good topic. I tend to LPF BVs quite heavily. They rarely need the same airy extension as an LV, unless heard on their own in call/response manner. It's good to keep all of that spitty top end for the LV. I'll also go heavy on a multi-band comp to pin in or invert any build-ups. Super effective when there are loads of takes and the 600-800 range starts to pile up. Same for de-essing. Very heavy handed on BVs, where as I may not use one on an LV. But as mentioned before, less 'cool' processing such as quick release compressors. I'll always save the in your face processing for the leads. I'm not that fussed about using separate mics for LVs and BVs when tracking, as I know I'll be approaching the mix processing from different angles. I forgot about de-essing. Old school trick is to have harmony singers not even sing the "t", "s", "sh", and "ch" sounds. You'll never hear the difference. Less old school but time tested is just erasing those sounds from waveform or at least clip gaining them way down. Your client will never know they're gone but your mixing engineer will thank you. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 2, 2024 12:14:23 GMT -6
Old school trick is to have harmony singers not even sing the "t", "s", "sh", and "ch" sounds. This is my approach. In LA at least, the pro session singers do this as standard fare. If you are recording say...4 at a time, maybe only one of them is singing those consonants. And then, lightly. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 2, 2024 12:31:52 GMT -6
Old school trick is to have harmony singers not even sing the "t", "s", "sh", and "ch" sounds. This is my approach. In LA at least, the pro session singers do this as standard fare. If you are recording say...4 at a time, maybe only one of them is singing those consonants. And then, lightly. Amen!!!! This is huge for singing bgvs live as well. |
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Post by doubledog on Feb 2, 2024 12:45:27 GMT -6
just erasing those sounds from waveform or at least clip gaining them way down. Your client will never know they're gone but your mixing engineer will thank you. that's what I always do (and good amount of HPF). Sometimes easier than trying to train someone to sing half a word (because then they are too busy thinking about singing half a word and they lose the sincerity in the vocal) I'm also not a fan of loud doubles (on the lead) or bg vox that are way up in the mix (unless it's a unique call & response thing that calls for it). they are called background for a reason. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 2, 2024 12:50:14 GMT -6
Come on guys. Everyone knows if you wanna be "Todays Top 40" ... It's all AI and Autotune now!  * Chris *What's depressing is this will probably be mostly true eventually. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 2, 2024 12:53:50 GMT -6
[quote I'm also not a fan of loud doubles (on the lead) or bg vox that are way up in the mix (unless it's a unique call & response thing that calls for it). they are called background for a reason. [/quote] An exception/unique case, is The Easybeats "Gonna Have A Good Time". With the incomparable Steve Marriott on "Lead" Background vocal! Chris |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 2, 2024 13:12:43 GMT -6
[quote I'm also not a fan of loud doubles (on the lead) or bg vox that are way up in the mix (unless it's a unique call & response thing that calls for it). they are called background for a reason. An exception/unique case, is The Easybeats "Gonna Have A Good Time". With the incomparable Steve Marriott on "Lead" Background vocal! Chris[/quote] This is why I make the distinction between background vocals and harmony vocals. Background is background. Even harmonies can be background. But some harmonies are the sound. Grateful Dead, CSNY, or Everly Brothers. A group called The Beatles and another obscure one called The Beach Boys do this sometimes. Or more obviously vocal harmony groups in modern R&B. Actually The Beach Boys are a great example, if you listen to those records one can learn a lot about how tight harmony can be mixed versus how background vocals can be mixed because they have both of those in droves. But they are different. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 2, 2024 13:27:33 GMT -6
God only knows, how all those guys sang so well. Chris P.S. As you guys know, it was "live in the Studio" BGV's baby! |
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Post by ab101 on Feb 2, 2024 14:07:43 GMT -6
Nice general rules, but overall, there are no rules in "art."
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 2, 2024 18:24:15 GMT -6
Nice general rules, but overall, there are no rules in "art." 1000000% |
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Post by wiz on Feb 2, 2024 21:18:44 GMT -6
If you have ever been a part of... or in a room with people who can sing 3 and 4 part harmony....man it's a spiritual experience....
I always concentrated more on being a harmony singer than say a lead guitar player (though I can do that) it got me more live gigs.. over some really really good players who couldn't sing.... a lot of people can sing lead vocals, but not harmonise well....and if you can
you often get the gig.
cheers
Wiz
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