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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2014 18:38:39 GMT -6
All of a sudden, I'm noticing that I'm lacking headroom in both of my compressors. Could this be a problem with the patchbay? I can start with just the pre patched in - get it at just the right level where I've got plenty of headroom and then when I patch in either of my compressors, I'm getting distortion on the peaks. I feel like I'm gain staging correctly - mic pre is at proper level, then going into the sta or the 76, I'm getting lack of headroom even on the smallest gain reduction.
I thought maybe it was a bad tube in the Sta, but then switched over and had the same problem with the WA76. If it were a patchbay problem, shouldn't I be getting headroom issues even when it's just the pre in the chain?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2014 18:56:44 GMT -6
There is a possibility that I am just a fucking moron. I swear to all that is good and holy that I don't hear distortion when I have this pre at 20db (it's a hot mic) going straight in to the converter. No matter how hard I hit it. Then - I patch the compressor in and - there's the distortion - or lack of headroom. I can get that distortion at any level of input. Why is the perfectly gain staged pre-into-converter distorting the input of the compressors? So - if I pull the pre down 5 DB...no headroom problem. Sounds like a bad Henny Youngman joke -
Me: "Hey Doc, my compressors distort when I hit them too hard..."
Doc: "Stop hitting your compressors too hard"
My question is this - why is the 20db not distorting the converter, but then distorting my compressors at the same level?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 16, 2014 19:43:31 GMT -6
There is a possibility that I am just a fucking moron. I swear to all that is good and holy that I don't hear distortion when I have this pre at 20db (it's a hot mic) going straight in to the converter. No matter how hard I hit it. Then - I patch the compressor in and - there's the distortion - or lack of headroom. I can get that distortion at any level of input. Why is the perfectly gain staged pre-into-converter distorting the input of the compressors? So - if I pull the pre down 5 DB...no headroom problem. Sounds like a bad Henny Youngman joke - Me: "Hey Doc, my compressors distort when I hit them too hard..." Doc: "Stop hitting your compressors too hard" My question is this - why is the 20db not distorting the converter, but then distorting my compressors at the same level? bypass your patchbay and plug right into the compressor, and see if you still get the distortion,... might not be a bad thing these days lol If you're not getting the distortion, hook it back to the patchbay, check it again, and if its still there, check for clean connections, you may have a partial cold solder joint, check polarity of your wiring. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2014 19:46:09 GMT -6
But it's weird that it would happen with two different compressors...I guess it's not that big a deal - I just back the gain down...
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Post by wiz on Jul 16, 2014 20:05:23 GMT -6
"My question is this - why is the 20db not distorting the converter, but then distorting my compressors at the same level?"
because something is amiss with your gain staging.
Start at the beginning will take just a couple of minutes and you will find out what your issue is.
Plug mic into preamp through patch bay into converter. Sing into microphone, roughly whats the peak level with the pre set at -20dB? Write that down
Now plug your comp in between the preamp and converter.
Set the compressor controls on the WA76 to about INPUT 45 OUTPUT 42 8:1 compression (roughly my starting point for vocals)
record that and see?
is your distortion coming from the compressor, or are you overdriving your converters?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by wiz on Jul 16, 2014 20:05:58 GMT -6
if you want, I am sitting here in my studio with my proverbial up my but, I can give you a call and talk you through it... if you want.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2014 20:17:03 GMT -6
Thanks, Wiz...I'm not in my studio right now...but I've done exactly what you're suggesting. Somehow, the level is not distorting when going mic--pre--converter, but the mic pre seems to be distorting when the compressor(s) are patched in. If I pull the gain down by -5db, no problem.
I thought maybe there was a chance I just wasn't hearing the distortion without the compressor patched in, but no - I can't get it to clip with just pre to converter. Plug in the compressor and headroom drops. So confused.
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Post by mulmany on Jul 16, 2014 20:56:35 GMT -6
Use the comp as an insert and see what happens. Are you saying that the pre starts distorting or the comp? If the pre does then something is happening with the loading on the output.
Can you come out line level into the pre then straight into the comp, no patch bay?
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2014 21:49:43 GMT -6
Could be the change in dynamics going through a compressor and/or the change in transients loading the outputs of the preamps with something other than your interface.. I.E., transient overshoot, etc.
But then again, it could be that the load your interface presents to the preamp is likely a "line" type around 10K ohms.. While older devices(and their clones) look more like 600-1.2K ohms, which would load your preamps more and might reduce headroom
Might.
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Post by henge on Jul 17, 2014 5:12:40 GMT -6
This started happening today?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 7:34:44 GMT -6
This is the first time I've noticed...before, I would already have the pre patched into the compressor and just turn the pre down until there was no distortion...basically just setting it where it sounds good. And of course, that's ultimately the answer to all of this. BUT I just wonder what's going on when my pre by itself doesn't clip the converter, but clips both compressors when they are patched in...
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Post by svart on Jul 17, 2014 7:41:34 GMT -6
might be as simple as your interface has more headroom than your other gear.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 17, 2014 7:50:26 GMT -6
This is the first time I've noticed...before, I would already have the pre patched into the compressor and just turn the pre down until there was no distortion...basically just setting it where it sounds good. And of course, that's ultimately the answer to all of this. BUT I just wonder what's going on when my pre by itself doesn't clip the converter, but clips both compressors when they are patched in... Are you going into the Bomber? Isn't the whole idea of the bomber that you won't clip it and sound bad? Tons of headroom and the transformers to round things a bit? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 8:50:46 GMT -6
Yes. The burl isn't the issue. I can go Helios into the burl at 20db with no distortion if I send the Helios to the sta or the wa76, I hear distortion on the peaks no matter what the input of the compressor is. If I go down to 15 db, there's no problem.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 17, 2014 9:11:56 GMT -6
Yes. The burl isn't the issue. I can go Helios into the burl at 20db with no distortion if I send the Helios to the sta or the wa76, I hear distortion on the peaks no matter what the input of the compressor is. If I go down to 15 db, there's no problem. what happens when you use your Heider? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 9:29:25 GMT -6
I used the Heider on female vox the other day with great success, but of course, I just turned it until it worked. The weird thing to me is why the two compressors seem to have less headroom than the Burl.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 17, 2014 10:16:26 GMT -6
I used the Heider on female vox the other day with great success, but of course, I just turned it until it worked. The weird thing to me is why the two compressors seem to have less headroom than the Burl. ? not sure, the burl is as new school in some ways as the retro/1176 are old school? but that don't explain old school pre's overdriving the input on those....so? The bigger Q is... why do you have a - transaction?  |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 17, 2014 10:27:20 GMT -6
Yes. The burl isn't the issue. I can go Helios into the burl at 20db with no distortion if I send the Helios to the sta or the wa76, I hear distortion on the peaks no matter what the input of the compressor is. If I go down to 15 db, there's no problem. I wasn't implying that the Burl was the issue, just the opposite. I was saying that you may be outputting from your pre hot and the Burl can handle it better than the compressors because the Burl may have more headroom. |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 17, 2014 11:48:56 GMT -6
Have you tried just backing off the output of the compressor? That way your pre saturation stays the same and your compression behavior stays the same. You only lose a touch of Retro output amp flavor. Maybe it's NOT the input of the compressor...maybe it's the output driving too hard in to the converter. Maybe the comp output is adding more level than the pre alone so when you take the comp out of the chain the level is lower and distortion gone?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 15:26:31 GMT -6
Have you tried just backing off the output of the compressor? That way your pre saturation stays the same and your compression behavior stays the same. You only lose a touch of Retro output amp flavor. Maybe it's NOT the input of the compressor...maybe it's the output driving too hard in to the converter. Maybe the comp output is adding more level than the pre alone so when you take the comp out of the chain the level is lower and distortion gone? Yeah - tried that. It's distorting on the input side. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 15:27:27 GMT -6
I used the Heider on female vox the other day with great success, but of course, I just turned it until it worked. The weird thing to me is why the two compressors seem to have less headroom than the Burl. ? not sure, the burl is as new school in some ways as the retro/1176 are old school? but that don't explain old school pre's overdriving the input on those....so? The bigger Q is... why do you have a - transaction? Not sure what you mean by transaction. |
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Post by wiz on Jul 17, 2014 15:45:33 GMT -6
Not sure what sort of mic preamps you are using... but... and I aint sure what sort of mic you are using... but...
with my U87 I would use say 35 to 40dB of gain. But I often set my preamps to say 50 or 55 dB of gain and then trim down the output of the preamp, because I like the colour.
I own a WA76 and a Drip STA Level, and I have no problems with either. In fact I have the opposite problem in that the STA and my LA2A are really hot outputs.
When you connect the mic/preamp/converter.. .and sing... what sort of dBFS (db Full scale) are you reaching on your converter, and what is your converter (and I will look up the specs) and what dB gain are you using on the preamp, and what microphone.
I think it might be as simple as you are running essential much much higher than +4dBu and your converters have bookoo headroom and the other gear don't.
cheers
Wiz
PS I have a couple of radio interviews this morning and will be away from the studio until about 9pm Nashville time, but I am more than happy to call you and help you sort it out if you wants....
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 15:53:38 GMT -6
I use that modded CV4 - which has always been hot as hell. The Helios has always been one that you have to be careful about the gain. I can easily crap it out around 30db. Jeff's pres don't have numbers on them, but I'm usually only one or two clicks up on the input and two clicks from noon on the output...I'm talking vocals here. Maybe this CV4 is just hot as shit. I also use the Helios with the pad (-20) and end up getting about 15db of gain.
I really don't think anything is particularly wrong - I could use the Heritage at 40-45 with the output pulled back...but I would usually use it around 30db with the output almost all the way up. Maybe I'm just dynamic as shit.
I guess it's not really that big a deal - if I turn the input on the pre down, everything is fine - just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 17, 2014 18:28:42 GMT -6
? not sure, the burl is as new school in some ways as the retro/1176 are old school? but that don't explain old school pre's overdriving the input on those....so? The bigger Q is... why do you have a - transaction? Not sure what you mean by transaction. Ur rating of -1 to the left |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2014 18:31:38 GMT -6
Hmm. I don't know. Obviously someone have it to me. Can you click on positive to get it back to zero?
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