ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 20, 2024 16:40:34 GMT -6
Trying to find a flat cardiod dynamic these days is almost impossible, most dynamics these days are voiced for stage instrument or voice, you will find flat Omni ENG mics, but since EV’s masters have changed hands multiple times not much in the ENG world other than Omni. Close up you have to do some trickery to overcome proximity effect. This why you see all the major morning shows and talk shows using KSM8’s as wireless handhelds. You either love or hate the KSM8 for it’s overall tone. That’s the strangest thing to me. I feel like I can’t be the only musician who really wishes there were more flat, cardioid dynamic mics still being manufactured. On the subject of the TV Shows, has anybody else noticed that Ryan Seacrest has phenomenally good handheld mic technique? He’ll be hosting New Year’s, and everyone else is popping P’s like crazy, but he sounds smooth as can be. The simplest answer is this: you are a traditional customer in what was once very much a niche industry, the traditional companies have all discovered the mass market prosumer world. Easy money in building more of a handful of products vs lower numbers of many products. If you build a niche flat dynamic, the primary market would be ENG and related install, the problem for both is this it’s going to cost about 300 street, now why should I buy one when I can buy 3 SM58’s for that can pretty much do the same job and I see everywhere? Yeah I can try to explain it to you as gearpimp, but I’m going to make more off those 58’s the customer is going to come in under budget on the mics and the talent looks like Bruce Springsteen or Taylor Swift, they are just microphones right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 18:00:41 GMT -6
That’s the strangest thing to me. I feel like I can’t be the only musician who really wishes there were more flat, cardioid dynamic mics still being manufactured. On the subject of the TV Shows, has anybody else noticed that Ryan Seacrest has phenomenally good handheld mic technique? He’ll be hosting New Year’s, and everyone else is popping P’s like crazy, but he sounds smooth as can be. The simplest answer is this: you are a traditional customer in what was once very much a niche industry, the traditional companies have all discovered the mass market prosumer world. Easy money in building more of a handful of products vs lower numbers of many products. If you build a niche flat dynamic, the primary market would be ENG and related install, the problem for both is this it’s going to cost about 300 street, now why should I buy one when I can buy 3 SM58’s for that can pretty much do the same job and I see everywhere? Yeah I can try to explain it to you as gearpimp, but I’m going to make more off those 58’s the customer is going to come in under budget on the mics and the talent looks like Bruce Springsteen or Taylor Swift, they are just microphones right? The market has hit rock bottom and the amount of bad gear and misinformation out there is greater than ever. The SM58 is way better than many of the Chinese dynamics you see out there now. The Shure karoake mics are better than those. How do you get someone to buy EV, Beyer, or Heil? EV and Beyer don't even want to develop anything new. Beyer did but they discontinued most of their modern condensers, which were excellent mics. The LDCs and omni SDCs are gone. They didn't want to support the pro market and want to go full prosumer. Even now, their mics (and some other super well respected manufacturers, more than Beyer, mics) are super fragile in real world use vs a Shure. Bosch didn't want to pay for new tooling for the better EV omnis. Rip RE 15 and RE 16. Current RE20 are a shadow of the old ones. They lack of the detail.
Now try telling someone that the Shure KSMs are great mics. Especially the true condenser LDCs. They tend to dismiss them as hohum. They're fine workhorse mics with newer design capsules that capture more detail. People just don't like how they sound. They expect processed or colored sound from a more expensive mic.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 20, 2024 19:11:39 GMT -6
Given that use case, I would totally try an EV RE 10/11/15/16. All essentially the same mic. The RE11 has been the easiest to find for me the past couple years. Cardioid, no proximity effect, no big vocal boost, no pinch at 1-2k, unobtrusive on camera. Done. Man, it really sounds like those vintage EVs might be the best option out there. I love the sound of an RE15 but prices have really jumped on those in recent years. Mark, honest question for you or anybody else who can answer...why don't they (EV, or anybody else) make dynamic mics that are voiced like those anymore? RE11 is the answer to your lament about RE15 prices. I just looked on Reverb and saw 3 good copies. Avg price was $300, maybe? Including a guy who removes the old foam and replaces with new. |
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Post by ninworks on Jan 21, 2024 10:16:18 GMT -6
I had a vintage U89 I bought new back in the day. Well, it was used but only a month old. I used it for years until I didn't and it sat in its box for 10 years. I traded it for some outboard gear a few years ago and don't miss it. I have other mikes these days that will do 99% of what it would do so I didn't need it anymore. I like mikes that add a little something to the sound. It's not very often I need a mic with a flat response. If I do I can get it but for me, the fun is in using something that puts a sound in a certain place. It's not very often that the source can't use a little mojo on the way in to help make it sit in its own spot in the mix.
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Post by ragan on Jan 21, 2024 11:34:45 GMT -6
Senn 441. They’re big and expensive, but they sound so good. I also really like EV RE15s and the like. Also love the RE50.
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Post by bikescene on Jan 21, 2024 12:14:38 GMT -6
The Shure VP64A is a dynamic omni that is still currently in production. It’s an interview mic that’s voiced a little differently than the 635A, but still in that spirit. The VP64A is very cheap on the used market. Heres the frequency response graph from Shure’s website.  |
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Post by bossanova on Jan 24, 2024 17:58:54 GMT -6
Man, it really sounds like those vintage EVs might be the best option out there. I love the sound of an RE15 but prices have really jumped on those in recent years. Mark, honest question for you or anybody else who can answer...why don't they (EV, or anybody else) make dynamic mics that are voiced like those anymore? RE11 is the answer to your lament about RE15 prices. I just looked on Reverb and saw 3 good copies. Avg price was $300, maybe? Including a guy who removes the old foam and replaces with new. I'm going back and forth right now because on one hand I wanted to add a RE15/11 on general principle because I really like the sound. However, I'm not sure if this is going to be the best application because I do record live and sometimes I move around with playing and talking and I'm worried the Hypercardioid pattern will get weird if I turn my head or shift position as I tend to do. I've heard that the KSM8 is very forgiving in terms of the pattern and pickup, and that would be a plus for that particular quality. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 24, 2024 18:13:15 GMT -6
RE11 is the answer to your lament about RE15 prices. I just looked on Reverb and saw 3 good copies. Avg price was $300, maybe? Including a guy who removes the old foam and replaces with new. I'm going back and forth right now because on one hand I wanted to add a RE15/11 on general principle because I really like the sound. However, I'm not sure if this is going to be the best application because I do record live and sometimes I move around with playing and talking and I'm worried the Hypercardioid pattern will get weird if I turn my head or shift position as I tend to do. I've heard that the KSM8 is very forgiving in terms of the pattern and pickup, and that would be a plus for that particular quality. Definitely a major consideration, and only you can speak to that aspect of your workflow. I’ve never used the KSM8, so I couldn’t say anything with any intelligence about it, personally. |
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 24, 2024 19:47:43 GMT -6
Man, it really sounds like those vintage EVs might be the best option out there. I love the sound of an RE15 but prices have really jumped on those in recent years. Mark, honest question for you or anybody else who can answer...why don't they (EV, or anybody else) make dynamic mics that are voiced like those anymore? Trying to find a flat cardiod dynamic these days is almost impossible, most dynamics these days are voiced for stage instrument or voice, you will find flat Omni ENG mics, but since EV’s masters have changed hands multiple times not much in the ENG world other than Omni. Close up you have to do some trickery to overcome proximity effect. This why you see all the major morning shows and talk shows using KSM8’s as wireless handhelds. You either love or hate the KSM8 for it’s overall tone.
What they do to make a dynamic mic have a flat response is to put a zobel network in it. Condenser mics are typically trimmed with preemphasis filter in the negative feedback circuit.
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Post by sirthought on Jan 25, 2024 15:46:09 GMT -6
Don't they still make the RE16 new?
There's also the RE320, which I own one and like it on a lot of applications, but I haven't been listening for flatness. I also have RE 11, and while it is hyper, it's not really so controlling you can't move a bit. I bought it for a drummer who sang with a somewhat quite voice. She moved around playing those drums and it still picked up her voice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 16:35:43 GMT -6
Don't they still make the RE16 new? There's also the RE320, which I own one and like it on a lot of applications, but I haven't been listening for flatness. I also have RE 11, and while it is hyper, it's not really so controlling you can't move a bit. I bought it for a drummer who sang with a somewhat quite voice. She moved around playing those drums and it still picked up her voice. RE16 is gone. I bought the last new one from guitar center pro in 2021. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 16:38:30 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 22:35:24 GMT -6
Now try telling someone that the Shure KSMs are great mics. Especially the true condenser LDCs. They tend to dismiss them as hohum. They're fine workhorse mics with newer design capsules that capture more detail. People just don't like how they sound. They expect processed or colored sound from a more expensive mic.
I doth believe Dan, if you know what you're doing you can make a phenomenal album with just a Shure KSM and I can't necessarily say that for quite a few expensive mic's that work for certain applications or certain singers. It's like the U89 is considered "boring" but from a technical standpoint it's an incredible mic, really low S/N, it can take mad levels of SPL, it has better off axis rejection than a lot of dynamics I've come across and it does tend to work pretty well in less than amazing rooms.
The main issue I've come across with the U89 is you need a decent cue mix, if most singers actually hear what they sound like it doesn't tend to go down well. IMO the best "dynamic" U89 is a U89. Yes I know it's a 3/4 dual diaphragm K89 capsule etc. but you get what I mean..
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Post by chessparov on Jan 26, 2024 15:26:27 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2024 15:37:27 GMT -6
Now try telling someone that the Shure KSMs are great mics. Especially the true condenser LDCs. They tend to dismiss them as hohum. They're fine workhorse mics with newer design capsules that capture more detail. People just don't like how they sound. They expect processed or colored sound from a more expensive mic.
I doth believe Dan, if you know what you're doing you can make a phenomenal album with just a Shure KSM and I can't necessarily say that for quite a few expensive mic's that work for certain applications or certain singers. It's like the U89 is considered "boring" but from a technical standpoint it's an incredible mic, really low S/N, it can take mad levels of SPL, it has better off axis rejection than a lot of dynamics I've come across and it does tend to work pretty well in less than amazing rooms.
The main issue I've come across with the U89 is you need a decent cue mix, if most singers actually hear what they sound like it doesn't tend to go down well. IMO the best "dynamic" U89 is a U89. Yes I know it's a 3/4 dual diaphragm K89 capsule etc. but you get what I mean..
the problem is you have artists who aren't ready to play their material live or cannot play it live, musicians with bad instruments, and they're going in the studio to make a record to present their music to the world when neither their music nor them are ready to do that. then the band aids come out, the stunt micings, the stunt mics, the clones and other ersatz in a cargo cult mentality to capture past successful artists.
make a clear but inspirational cue mix in 30 seconds? we have mixers who can't make a clear sounding but spiritually inspirational album mix in 30 years. then more corner cutting and ersatz come out
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Post by hadaja on Jan 26, 2024 17:12:18 GMT -6
Just out of left field - does a reference/calibration mic that you can use on speaker alignment produce a flat response?
Also i have never used a Lewitt but here was some info about this particular model and an eq graph.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Jan 26, 2024 18:40:51 GMT -6
Just out of left field - does a reference/calibration mic that you can use on speaker alignment produce a flat response?
Also i have never used a Lewitt but here was some info about this particular model and an eq graph.
Some Measurement mics are decent all purpose mics ( MBHO, Earthworks Josephson) most suck. Those that do work for vocals specifically need a really good windscreen. That Lewitt graph has a ton of smoothing and only shows on axis response. |
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Post by bossanova on Feb 9, 2024 19:40:43 GMT -6
Man, it really sounds like those vintage EVs might be the best option out there. I love the sound of an RE15 but prices have really jumped on those in recent years. Mark, honest question for you or anybody else who can answer...why don't they (EV, or anybody else) make dynamic mics that are voiced like those anymore? RE11 is the answer to your lament about RE15 prices. I just looked on Reverb and saw 3 good copies. Avg price was $300, maybe? Including a guy who removes the old foam and replaces with new. Well, you ultimately sold me. A 1973 RE 11 with new foam arrives sometime next week 😮 |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 9, 2024 19:55:57 GMT -6
Hey all, just like the title says. Are there any in production dynamics that have a deliberately flat midrange like you would get from the above two mics? I remember that there was a Shure attempt at such a thing that ended in an 8 but is long out of production. Your'e probably thinking of the Shure KSM 8, still in production, which is a dual capsule to cancel the proximity effect which means it has no presence boost to compensate, it is flatter than most dynamics, I have 5 of them, its a HH vocal mic but would be good on brass, percussion & amps.. The Sennheiser e906 is also very flat when the EQ switch is in the rolloff position, not in the flat position, refer to the manual. When used in this mode its very close to the classic MD409, i have both of these mics too, they're great for brass & percussion although marketed as a guitar mic nowadays, 409's have been used as vocal mic's.. RE 20 is also very flat as it has no proximity effect, but expensive & cumbersome. Sennheiser MD441 is flat, but also expensive & cumbersome. There are a few vintage mics that were very flat, AKG D24, D160E & D224 which uses two diaphragms, almost sounds like a condenser, and a lot of the EV RE series are flat too. I've never heard of this mic but I can think of 1000 things I would use it for. Very intriguing. But is it just me or is this thing extremely ugly? It looks like a mic that would come with a karaoke machine. I feel like if I put that on stage I would have to argue with a sound guy to use it. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 9, 2024 20:47:51 GMT -6
RE11 is the answer to your lament about RE15 prices. I just looked on Reverb and saw 3 good copies. Avg price was $300, maybe? Including a guy who removes the old foam and replaces with new. Well, you ultimately sold me. A 1973 RE 11 with new foam arrives sometime next week 😮 Nice! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on it. Definitely try it with different pres - I do find it changes character just a bit depending on what pre is used. And if you find it’s not the mic for you, somebody around here would probably take it off your hands. But it’s really nice on a lot of things besides voice, including acoustic guitar and drums. |
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Post by bossanova on Feb 16, 2024 16:12:36 GMT -6
Shout-out to JR's Audio Gear on Reverb: the RE11 arrived working, as described, and sounding great. Very smooth sound, and even smaller than I was expecting.
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Post by bossanova on Aug 20, 2024 15:03:28 GMT -6
I've been meaning to make a brief follow up report for a while.
The RE11 has been pretty great. On one hand it doesn't sound pristine by any means, but on the other hand the lack of proximity effect is pretty great for both my specific voice and what I've been using it for.
The biggest difference in working it close versus far is the natural compression on the former. Pretty cool compared to using a 58 where being closer and on axis came with major tonal changes.
For spoken vocals I've been getting away with using little to no EQ. With the 58 I would be cutting heaps of lows and low mids.
(To be continued)
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Post by bossanova on Aug 20, 2024 19:44:45 GMT -6
On sung vocals I end up cutting some low end because my voice inevitability brings up the low end resonances in my room, but again it’s nowhere near what I have to cut on my Shure mics.
On first listen it did sound noticeably more dull without the usual dynamic midrange boosts. I’ve since found that I’ve gotten used to the flatter sound and now I prefer having that as the default. EQ, exciters, and doubles can always add some presence.
Downsides: it does pick up more piano spill than the SM58. Not the end of the world, but definitely audible in places where the 58 had near 100% rejection. There’s also a 2.5k vocal resonance that I’ve been consistently notching out with DeRes. I’m not sure if it’s the mic, or my room, or my voice, or all three. It’s also a bummer that EV doesn’t have replacement parts for the RE11 anymore, but hopefully this one will keep kicking.
So overall, I like it!
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Post by frans on Aug 21, 2024 2:09:55 GMT -6
The old AKG dual-membrane mics are fine, but most of them are broken or about to be. Later AKG made a dual-membrane mic that was more durable, the D3600. It doesn't sound any good but at least it will sound so for many years to come. If you want to open one and fill it with concrete (to make it useful as a paperweight) the screw you are looking for sits a bit hidden behind the joint with the threading, bend it away from the XLR and you will see it.
In the same line was an electret mic called C5600, which the internet says has the C414 capsule. Which is wrong. It's still (getting very off-topic here) not too different from a fet47 in front of a kickdrum but saves a few bucks.
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