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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2024 14:41:02 GMT -6
Just thought I might start a new bread for this, because the other one has gotten so long. I have three devices. The Apollo, the Burl and the Trinnov. If I’m clocking from the Burl, I can go Ward clock out to the Apollo, and then Word clock out to the Trinnov. That’s better than Daisy Chaining, correct? (sorry I’m using voice dictation)
They also bought two T adapters and have one termination plug. If I’m not Daisy chaining, do I need to use the connectors? Do I need to use the plug? I guess what I’m asking is what is the proper way to set this stuff up.
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Post by seawell on Jan 12, 2024 15:05:25 GMT -6
I think you're in luck here since the Burl has 2 wc outputs, I would send from those to the Apollo and Trinnov each directly instead of daisy chaining. You shouldn't have to use T adapters or the termination plug at all. If the Burl only had one output and you were wanting to use it as the master, that's where you'd have to get into using the t adapters/termination plug.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 12, 2024 16:21:27 GMT -6
Assume the 2 word clock outs are basically a T connector traced on to the PCB. Over all looking at things with the scope I personally have found more often than not T connectors work better, I have always assumed it’s a combination of poor PSU design and that in most cases nobody really cares about the WC that much.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2024 16:58:29 GMT -6
Assume the 2 word clock outs are basically a T connector traced on to the PCB. Over all looking at things with the scope I personally have found more often than not T connectors work better, I have always assumed it’s a combination of poor PSU design and that in most cases nobody really cares about the WC that much. I thought I read somewhere Dan Lavry saying you should put a T Connector on everything. Is that what you're saying? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 12, 2024 17:08:40 GMT -6
Assume the 2 word clock outs are basically a T connector traced on to the PCB. Over all looking at things with the scope I personally have found more often than not T connectors work better, I have always assumed it’s a combination of poor PSU design and that in most cases nobody really cares about the WC that much. I thought I read somewhere Dan Lavry saying you should put a T Connector on everything. Is that what you're saying? He did, but as you know there are very few things in the world of audio are of an “ always “ nature. There are some pieces in a complex digital chain where a T is at best equivalent to the internal loop. The one place where I will almost always grab a T is if there is a switch to terminate, every time I engage the terminator the scope shows lots of jitter. For the most part in theory I agree an internal clock should be better, but I don’t live in a theoretical world in the real world I use a very scientific method, I use the Scope that cost me a whole $50 to evaluate what I’m dealing with. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 12, 2024 18:14:57 GMT -6
Eric - is there any harm using a T connector and termination if it is not necessary?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 12, 2024 18:38:20 GMT -6
Eric - is there any harm using a T connector and termination if it is not necessary? The only times I know of where a T seamed worse were a Wiess EQ, and a Digico Console. I really like using Canare I think it’s the LV-61s with cut to length with Canare BNC’s. Also more flexible than most other 75ohm. Many years ago I handed my wife’s Grandfather who was the Forman in charge of production of all the weird “ R” cables used in WWII military communications a Canare Catalog and 5 foot sample. He couldn’t believe how well they spec’ed and fell in love with the flexibility. So I even married into Geekdom, hey my mother in law was the office manager of a large Tape duplication house in the 90’s and my father in law was their mastering Engineer for a couple of months. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 12, 2024 18:58:47 GMT -6
Amazing Eric!!! Fortunately, geeks are supercool today! Ha - I remember tape duplication. I still have tons of cassettes. I had a sony a sony 880-2 that I would mix down to for masters. And everything was tracked with an Orban 424a. Two pieces of equipment that should still be competitive today!
Loved those days.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2024 21:01:30 GMT -6
So I should at least try it, right? Should I put a t connector on the Apollo and Trinnov? See what happens?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 12, 2024 22:25:42 GMT -6
So I should at least try it, right? Should I put a t connector on the Apollo and Trinnov? See what happens? Try it, T connectors are probably the cheapest thing your going to buy for the studio so order one for each unit in the chain and a backup, I have stepped on a few over the years! |
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Post by svart on Jan 15, 2024 9:10:14 GMT -6
The biggest question is, are these inputs all terminated?
If not, then you NEED the TEEs and the last TEE should have a termination on it.
If so, then you connect them IN and OUT like your first post.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 9:53:02 GMT -6
The biggest question is, are these inputs all terminated? If not, then you NEED the TEEs and the last TEE should have a termination on it. If so, then you connect them IN and OUT like your first post. Oh like daisy chain? I’d imagine in my situation it’s probably best to just got two cables out of the Burl in this case, right? That is if I wanted to clock everything with the inferior external clock  |
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Post by thirdeye on Jan 15, 2024 10:09:48 GMT -6
Assume the 2 word clock outs are basically a T connector traced on to the PCB. Over all looking at things with the scope I personally have found more often than not T connectors work better, I have always assumed it’s a combination of poor PSU design and that in most cases nobody really cares about the WC that much. I thought I read somewhere Dan Lavry saying you should put a T Connector on everything. Is that what you're saying? If your Apollo has a termination button, no T connector is needed, just connect the BNC from the Burl WC out to the Apollo WC in and engage the termination button. Then, is the Trinnov terminated? I was not able to find out after a search in the Trinnov manual. If it is, just do the same as the Apollo, connect the BNC. If it is not terminated, BNC on the WC out of Burl to a t-connector on the WC input of Trinnov with a terminator on one side of the T. |
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Post by svart on Jan 15, 2024 10:48:52 GMT -6
The biggest question is, are these inputs all terminated? If not, then you NEED the TEEs and the last TEE should have a termination on it. If so, then you connect them IN and OUT like your first post. Oh like daisy chain? I’d imagine in my situation it’s probably best to just got two cables out of the Burl in this case, right? That is if I wanted to clock everything with the inferior external clock Well, "daisy chain" can mean either one. Output of the Burl into the Apollo, out of the Apollo into the Trinnov would be considered Serial. Out of the Burl with TEEs at each machine would be considered Parallel. Anyway, we need to know if each of these WC inputs has a native termination or not. How you would/could connect them would be determined by that. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 11:32:12 GMT -6
Oh like daisy chain? I’d imagine in my situation it’s probably best to just got two cables out of the Burl in this case, right? That is if I wanted to clock everything with the inferior external clock Well, "daisy chain" can mean either one. Output of the Burl into the Apollo, out of the Apollo into the Trinnov would be considered Serial. Out of the Burl with TEEs at each machine would be considered Parallel. Anyway, we need to know if each of these WC inputs has a native termination or not. How you would/could connect them would be determined by that. I see the Apollo has a termination button…I have two T connectors and one term plug. |
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Post by svart on Jan 15, 2024 12:00:30 GMT -6
Well, "daisy chain" can mean either one. Output of the Burl into the Apollo, out of the Apollo into the Trinnov would be considered Serial. Out of the Burl with TEEs at each machine would be considered Parallel. Anyway, we need to know if each of these WC inputs has a native termination or not. How you would/could connect them would be determined by that. I see the Apollo has a termination button…I have two T connectors and one term plug. Does the Trinnov have a termination? I found this in the Apollo manual: "Word Clock is not used for passing audio, but rather for providing a digital clock signal that is independent from the digital audio stream. It uses a BNC type cable to connect. In our example, connect the BNC cable from the Word Clock output of the Apollo to the Word Clock input of the secondary interface (if available). Please note that when passing a clock signal between 2 devices, a direct Word Clock connection from the master unit to the slave unit is all that is required. However, daisy chaining Word Clock through multiple devices is not recommended so if you are looking into setting up a more complex system with more than 2 non-Apollo devices, you will either need to purchase a dedicated external clock device that will distribute Word Clock to all of your devices, or use a BNC T-connector to split the Word Clock output from your master unit to multiple slave devices." So it looks like you need to use the TEE connectors. I'd set the Apollo termination OFF and then use the TEEs on both the Apollo and the Trinnov, then on the unused leg of the TEE on the trinnov (Assuming it does NOT have an internal termination), use the termination plug. If the Trinnov has an internal termination, then you do not need a termination plug on the last TEE. That would be the correct way to set it up based on what UA said, IF the Apollo is not the last in the wordclock chain. You could also set it up so that the Burl feeds the Trinnov with a TEE and then the other leg of the TEE goes to the Apollo with the TERM switch set to ON. WC doesn't care about the order of the units when clocking. |
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Post by svart on Jan 15, 2024 12:05:02 GMT -6
Just added to my prior reply that the Apollo can be the last item in the WC chain when the TERM switch is ON.
We still need to know if the Trinnov has an internal termination or not though. Unfortunately, the manual for the Trinnov doesn't specify. Weird. It says "75 ohm BNC" but it doesn't say if that's an actual termination. BNC is natively either 75 or 50 ohm impedance so it's not clear what they mean.
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Post by ab101 on Jan 15, 2024 12:13:32 GMT -6
If a unit has word clock in and out and it is last in the chain, can a termination plug be put on the word clock out, or does it need to be on the T on the word clock in?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 12:14:22 GMT -6
Just added to my prior reply that the Apollo can be the last item in the WC chain when the TERM switch is ON. We still need to know if the Trinnov has an internal termination or not though. Unfortunately, the manual for the Trinnov doesn't specify. Weird. It says "75 ohm BNC" but it doesn't say if that's an actual termination. BNC is natively either 75 or 50 ohm impedance so it's not clear what they mean. It doesn’t have any button or anything. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 15, 2024 12:30:19 GMT -6
Some units have built-in permanent termination - like the Lynx Hilo. I am not sure about the Trinnov - maybe they can be contacted.
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Post by seawell on Jan 15, 2024 12:58:12 GMT -6
Hey @johnkenn, when you get a sec can you post the Apollo, Burl and Trinnov exact models you have?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 14:06:30 GMT -6
Apollo x6
Burl B2 DA
Trinnov ST-2
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 14:08:57 GMT -6
Trinnov has a bnc in and out, but the manual says nothing about termination.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2024 14:42:25 GMT -6
Hooked it up...
Burl out to Apollo T connector/Apollo Term off
Burl out 2 to Trinnov T connector with Term plug on one side.
Going back and forth without the T Connectors...not sure there's any difference at all, but my initial reaction was that it was a little wider (which I realize is probably not happening) so I'm just gonna keep the T connectors.
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Post by svart on Jan 15, 2024 15:14:05 GMT -6
Hooked it up... Burl out to Apollo T connector/Apollo Term off Burl out 2 to Trinnov T connector with Term plug on one side. Going back and forth without the T Connectors...not sure there's any difference at all, but my initial reaction was that it was a little wider (which I realize is probably not happening) so I'm just gonna keep the T connectors. So you have two WC outputs from the Burl? If the Apollo is the only device on one output, then you need the term ON. I guess I should make a better description: WC should have ONLY one termination at the end of the signal chain. If the device has an internal termination, use that. If not, then use the TEE with external termination. |
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