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Post by audiospecific on Dec 28, 2023 14:38:50 GMT -6
Introduction
The EPQ-KT is a budget copy of the famous Pulse Pultec EQP-1a. The reason why I say copy instead of clone is that a clone is the copy of the exact circuit. I purchase two of these to see how they hold up to the tasks and sounding like the original design. Needless to say, I was disappointed. In this thread, I will be going though my examination technique and show what I do when I analyze a piece of equipment and apply my modding procedures to take a design to the best level of performance. Do not attempt to copy some of my methods without proper bench electronics support equipment and safety practices. Failure to do so might cause yourself to be electrocuted.
The Pulse Pultec EPQ-1a was created in 1951 for the purpose of putting on the finishing equalization touches of final mixes in the audio production field as well as recorded materials in the broadcast sector. It has been a staple in audio studios for a long time, and now there is even plugins design to try to imitate this piece of equipment. Below we can see the designer's specifications. This was designed to be a broad band equalizer, and using the classic balanced connections that was used in that era.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 28, 2023 15:10:44 GMT -6
The Input Circuit
Looking at the input circuit, we have a set of inputs, XLR and TRS going into a rfi and an attenuator, then into a transformer on the back of the board. the secondary termination is on the front board.
With injecting a 1V signal, the attenuator knocked it down to 300mV, then stepped the voltage up to 2.5V. Termination of the secondary indicates the output impedance is 10K, so we are looking at a 600 ohm:10K circuit. Rarely will you encounter step up or down transformers with suitable bandwidth response. This transformer, I would use in something narrow band like a microphone preamp where these type of transformers are utilized.
Compare and contrast from the original:
The Triad HS56 is a 600 :600 ohm matching transformer with a frequency response of 10hz-30Khz
The next step is to do bandwidth analysis to determine if we are still within intended specs, even though impedance is different.
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Post by peterhess on Dec 28, 2023 19:17:09 GMT -6
I’ll be following closely! And thanks in advance.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 29, 2023 8:40:35 GMT -6
I’ll be following closely! And thanks in advance.
Whats a bummer is its going to be a bit because my function generator I had since the nineties decided to stop working in the middle of it.
What is odd is the input circuit having the capacitors on signal + and signal - to gnd. That is not normal and it could be from the use of the switching power supply. I'll have to add inspecting the tube plate noise region for excessive noise (in rf) because that would effect harmonics and gain. But I'm thinking its a combination since people have noticed small improvements when they have replaced signal path parts. They also use this switcher in their LA-2a clone which has a similar issues.
EDIT: Thinking about skipping ahead and inspecting the plate RF gain region since I don't need a signal generator for that test. So I will do that, stay tuned.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 30, 2023 9:38:15 GMT -6
I'm getting busy again with holiday stuff. But while we are waiting on things, Let me discuss how incorrect they designed their input circuit.
A passive EQ like this has to have a certain amount of current capacity from the voltage source so that the filter network maintains constant voltage drop ratio that changes when its series adjustment of its boost control is adjusted. Starving the transformer in front changes the potential current in the secondary due to transformer core loss. So what they should have done is pad the transformer afterwards to hit their target voltage range. Without the pad, the voltage scale would be too high for some of the parts they used in the filter I believe, but I would need their parts list/service data to confirm that, or bypass the attenuation and see what parts heat up in circuit with a thermal camera, which is the sign of pushing the limits of the wattage rating of the part. We also have to see if they trimmed back resistances in the circuit, since they did starve a transformer and lowered the relative delivery capacity of current in the secondary.
Looking online others commented about increasing the high boost resistance leg, either by adding a resistor or changing the control to a higher value. It would work, to a point where there is not enough signal current for the voltage drop so somewhere in the middle of the control, the filter output would start drop signal voltage with too high of a replacement resistance value on the control. So they are not going to go very far boosting it the way its set up currently.
The two capacitors C15 and C18 shouldn't be there, but a test to see if the power supply is radiating RF noise should be checked also. At the end they should be removed for the final mod.
So, investigation of limiting factors should be examined at the full voltage scaling (at 1V input the filter circuit's signal would be at ~10V) Because I don't care if the mod takes it to where we have more range in boost and cut than the original. If that becomes too course, we can install a range switch with a resistors to get back adjustment range contour or use a three turn potentiometer. I don't care if the clone is not the same. Because its not the same anyways, so let us see how far the design wants to go. The tubes at the end wouldn't care, and bias, gain, and negative feedback can be adjusted if needed.
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Post by copperx on Dec 30, 2023 14:21:44 GMT -6
I love this kind of content. Subscribed!!!
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 6:41:16 GMT -6
I left off analyzing the input.The next step is to do signal analysis to determine if we are still within intended specs, even though impedance is different. Picture 1: The signal at the input connector. Using a scope with a 2.5Vp-p signal @ 50 ohms My signal seems to be loaded down even through a 300 ohm H-pad attenuator. Resistance is low of the two primary coils at 35 ohms where the original was 210 ohms on the primary and secondary and the input impedance was 600 ohms instead of 300 ohms. Some may say "what is the difference". Well output circuits tend to have a higher noise floor when driven down in ohms too much and the bandwidth amplification product of the amp is also effected. Now we see what is on the primary of the transformer after the H bridge. Picture 2: The H-pad attenuated the signal from 2.21V p-p to 1.86V. So, it looks like they built an attenuator so their transformer wouldn't get overloaded. So what Klark really did was scale down and redesigned this product instead of copying the circuit like how everyone makes a "clone" model. Problem is that changing gain structure here has its negative impact on the circuit, as the current flowing through the primary is lower than the signal at the input connector that would cause a change in noise floor and loss of signal strength as relative core loss will occur with this circuit. Now, let's look at the Secondary Signal Picture 3: We see here that our secondary is 1.33V measured without load So the 1:1 transformer in the original design is not being simulated here. What I also find is that the Midas transformer is not 1:1 either, its actually a step up, but they starved the transformer and we are seeing the results. By looking at this transformer and what they were trying to accomplish, is the same voltage level as the input, but did not factor in the losses occurred in the primary. The logical course is to use a more suitable transformer. Next slide, we see what the signal is at half of the load of their EQ circuit. (10K resistor across the secondary) Picture 4. We observe half loading of this starved transformer as we see the voltage dropped again to 1.23V p-p. The reason why I say this is half load is the boost controls are in parallel in Ac signal analysis that have a 10K in impedance. When I measured the current it is only 42.8 uA through the 10K terminator that will be 21.4uA going through the circuit as the series boost controls will half this voltage. In the original design the terminated at 560 ohms and a higher voltage drop was developed across the 25K boost circuit. Some people said they had limited success increasing the boost resistance of the filters. But that is because this circuit has poor current delivery, and as a result, the boost starts starving the circuit's overall current which effects filtering range. Replacement transformer suggestions. I am going to try an Edcor XS4400 transformer. Its a little better designed than the original, 1:1:1:1 quad-filar wound 110 ohms each coil, with a F3 specification of 10Hz-57Khz, +/-1db 20-20000 which is almost exact to a very popular UTC transformer, the A-20 without the encapsulation. At 1/4 the price of the UTC, this sleeper transformer is a modder's dream come true. The original Triad transformer is a 600 to 600 bifilar wound which isn't currently made, but rumor has it they will be coming back to release that series sometime in 2024. Its a good transformer with a F3 specification (bandwidth measured to -3 db roll off points) is 10hz-30Khz, with a +/- 1db at 20Hz-20KHz.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 21:47:05 GMT -6
Looking at now the filter section. So far its a little strange until I ran across this schematic that closely matched the circuit:
The only thing different is some capacitor values and the shunt resistor across the secondary they have is a 10K resistor. Which when I put a 400ohm or so resistor there, I wonder if its going to destabilize since I don't have an innerstage transformer to set that fixed point on the output of the filter.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 8:06:24 GMT -6
I’ll be following closely! And thanks in advance.
What is odd is the input circuit having the capacitors on signal + and signal - to gnd. That is not normal and it could be from the use of the switching power supply.
No. It's common to have caps like that on inputs. You don't show the values, but the resistors R21/R25 and C15/C18 form a low pass filter. It's for filtering incoming RFI/EMI. It can also be used as a snubber for inductive kickback from the input transformer, however that's not as likely in this case.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 8:20:08 GMT -6
Also, how did you measure those resistor values in the input section? Their values make no sense. The shunting value should be much higher than what you show. Did you take them out of the circuit to measure? If you measured in-circuit they won't measure correctly.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 8:29:46 GMT -6
Also, how did you measure those resistor values in the input section? Their values make no sense. The shunting value should be much higher than what you show. Removed the transformer and read the values then double check them with the values written on them. Their transformer is like a mic transformer.
and still removing the rfi caps because they are the wrong type which is one of several places I imagine they deployed elsewhere in the circuit.
Besides that does it really matter anyways?
I never heard of an RFI filter used before a passive base band filter, and the active circuit has that afterwards.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 9:04:36 GMT -6
Also, how did you measure those resistor values in the input section? Their values make no sense. The shunting value should be much higher than what you show. Removed the transformer and read the values then double check them with the values written on them. Their transformer is like a mic transformer.
and still removing the rfi caps because they are the wrong type which is one of several places I imagine they deployed elsewhere in the circuit.
Besides that does it really matter anyways?
I never heard of an RFI filter used before a passive base band filter, and the active circuit has that afterwards.
Yes it does matter. I use them religiously in my designs. Any "extra" signal is generally bad to have. Transformer nonlinearities and low signal levels can cause all kinds of intermodulation issues. What is the "wrong type"? Any type can be used since it's just a simple filter as long as the voltage spec can handle a nominal working value.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 9:26:43 GMT -6
Removed the transformer and read the values then double check them with the values written on them. Their transformer is like a mic transformer.
and still removing the rfi caps because they are the wrong type which is one of several places I imagine they deployed elsewhere in the circuit.
Besides that does it really matter anyways?
I never heard of an RFI filter used before a passive base band filter, and the active circuit has that afterwards.
Yes it does matter. I use them religiously in my designs. Any "extra" signal is generally bad to have. Transformer nonlinearities and low signal levels can cause all kinds of intermodulation issues. What is the "wrong type"? Any type can be used since it's just a simple filter as long as the voltage spec can handle a nominal working value. Its probably filtering the garbage from their attenuator made with general purpose resistors instead of audio quality resistors. MELF types are not that expensive.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 9:53:56 GMT -6
Yes it does matter. I use them religiously in my designs. Any "extra" signal is generally bad to have. Transformer nonlinearities and low signal levels can cause all kinds of intermodulation issues. What is the "wrong type"? Any type can be used since it's just a simple filter as long as the voltage spec can handle a nominal working value. Its probably filtering the garbage from their attenuator made with general purpose resistors instead of audio quality resistors. MELF types are not that expensive. Using special resistors is really not necessary. I use some special resistors in my RF designs for specific reasons such as some of my signals are in the single mV range, but in audio it's mostly just audiophile nonsense to use special resistors. Regular carbon film are fine since even at single mV ranges, resistor noise is still miniscule compared. Carbon comp resistors are where the problems arise, but only really under voltage stress.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 11:59:49 GMT -6
Its probably filtering the garbage from their attenuator made with general purpose resistors instead of audio quality resistors. MELF types are not that expensive. Using special resistors is really not necessary. I use some special resistors in my RF designs for specific reasons such as some of my signals are in the single mV range, but in audio it's mostly just audiophile nonsense to use special resistors. Regular carbon film are fine since even at single mV ranges, resistor noise is still miniscule compared. Carbon comp resistors are where the problems arise, but only really under voltage stress.
You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts.
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2024 12:14:03 GMT -6
Using special resistors is really not necessary. I use some special resistors in my RF designs for specific reasons such as some of my signals are in the single mV range, but in audio it's mostly just audiophile nonsense to use special resistors. Regular carbon film are fine since even at single mV ranges, resistor noise is still miniscule compared. Carbon comp resistors are where the problems arise, but only really under voltage stress.
You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts.
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build.
It's not my creation. But with 30 years of electronic experience and 20 of those in high speed analog engineering, I know a thing or two about components. I'm not debating you, I'm giving you a different opinion based on my experience. And resistor choice does NOT make as big a difference as people make it out to be.
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Post by ragan on Jan 9, 2024 12:54:55 GMT -6
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build. why You planning on using the parasitic effects of those component legs for something? Have you characterized the thermal demands of these ref des?
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 13:25:25 GMT -6
You act like this is your 'creation' . Is it? Because if it is you are clueless in selection of parts.
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build.
It's not my creation. But with 30 years of electronic experience and 20 of those in high speed analog engineering, I know a thing or two about components. I'm not debating you, I'm giving you a different opinion based on my experience. And resistor choice does NOT make as big a difference as people make it out to be.
Its only certain places I worry about more. like where any alumina ceramic resistor doesn't work. which most general purpose surface mounts are made from. Also, I find their pick and place glue likes to form capacitance in high impedance areas.
Edit: Btw, Blacklion made mad money off of clocks in converters just because of this glue.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 13:31:23 GMT -6
The output circuit has a bunch of unnecessary loading and diodes? This thing actually has a turn on plop? I'll have to see this. But will have to draw this output circuit so I can understand this one better.
I'm glad I didn't pay much for them when they came out.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 14:22:44 GMT -6
Surface mount in tube circuits makes it a garbage build. why You planning on using the parasitic effects of those component legs for something? Have you characterized the thermal demands of these ref des? There is good and bad parts even with through hole.
If the part can be stuck to a magnet or is electromagnetic, its not the part to use.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 19:26:59 GMT -6
Now while I wait for me to get all the stuff together to put the input transformer in a mounting box, mounted on perforated proto board as I wasn't expected having this stuff, so I had to order it. I decided to look ahead to the output circuit. Another modern circuit that will have to be undone.
Also on the front board I'm removing the cap and resistor across the secondary output(c42,r27). As that is adjusted for the transformer and not all need that.
So now if all of that is gone, the seconds and thirds of the tube harmonics shouldn't be subtracted anymore.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 20:00:25 GMT -6
While I'm waiting on my parts to put together my pcboard mount beast of a signal transformer, I plan on tieing 3 of the windings together as the secondary of this quadfiliar wound transformer to give me 1:1 but with a secondary 3 times the current. 40 ohms is the resistance which is great because I measured 55 ohms on the Q/high boost circuit at its extreme setting, so I should have plenty of boost current as the midas transformer had 83 ohms of resistance and the original is 52 ohms. I might have extra current capacity to even increase the size of my high boost potentiometer to the next size up.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 9, 2024 20:26:15 GMT -6
And resistor choice does NOT make as big a difference as people make it out to be.
Choosing the resistor and determine it will do better in a certain circuit takes time and experience. Its the construction of the resistor and how well it inter reacts with the rest of the components.
There is certain parallels to this, but its because of the effects it has on the circuit function of the amplifying device.
So, I have a Berhinger console I'll trade you for your Neve console if you think parts don't matter.
But this one and their LA2a copy suffer and most of it comes from them modernizing it with circuits without considering what its doing. SMD technology included.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 11, 2024 10:38:19 GMT -6
Back on topic:
In the original pultecs, the transformers used for the filter section is not unique. As the filter only needs a 20 times difference in impedance from input to output. a higher differential from input and output impedance increases the Q divisor. The original was 33.3 impedance multiple of the input (600 ohms in 20K out). But at least 1/10 of the load impedance should be resistive otherwise, the inductance would impress onto the circuit causing the higher frequencies to be attenuated. The HS-29 innerstage has about 1800 ohms of resistance, which at the time was the only external mounted transformer that offered that resistance without a specially made transformer. Which I imagine it was their decision factor to go with Triad and have them make an output transformer for their unique tube line stage.
The HS29 is one of the higher off the shelf transformers that is gapped for tube line driver duty on its input. Since this is a passive circuit, that part of the construction didn't benefit the design other than offer inductance loss that would equalize the effects of 1/10 loading rule which they were close to breaking. Haufe still makes a generic transformer exactly like this Triad one for years.
The Klark Teknik does not have the innerstage transformer. So I will be drawing what they substituted for this. Which at the end should reveal why they stuck a 10K resistor for termination on the input.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 16, 2024 3:47:59 GMT -6
I notice on this site they don't say "clone" or "replica" because if they did, someone could file a fraud lawsuit against them for making something other than what they portrayed on their site. klarkteknik.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BR4
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