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Post by OtisGreying on Dec 16, 2023 16:37:06 GMT -6
Really interesting!
So he perfectly matches the EQ curves of a vintage Neve Eq on a Pro Q3 and gets the drum track very very close. Neve is receiving signal at normal levels. I can't reliably pick out the Neve vs Pro Q3 after trying for about 10 minutes on my headphones A/B testing but I plan to try again later today.
I think I have a decent ear but if I cant make out a difference later tonight then it would be interesting. To me it begs the question: Is the sonic value in the analog EQ world just in the harmonic distortion offered with the unit? If so to what degree is the harmonic distortion actually audible - if I cant hear it with a vintage Neve run at normal levels? Should we all be driving our analog EQ's harder? What does this mean for "clean" analog EQ's?
I suspect a cumulative affect throughout an entire mix would show a very perceivable difference, like using a Neve eq 20 times on a mix versus a Pro Q3 twenty times perfectly matched - that's been my personal experience. Or that driving the Neve harder would pronounce the harmonic distortion to a perceivable threshold, but that doesn't debunk the fact that on that drum track picking out the vintage Neve run at normal levels versus the proQ3 with matched curves is tough.
Harmonic distortion is very real and audible which EV also confirms himself and doesn't deny in any way. But just how much harmonic distortion/mojo are we actually hearing vs. thinking were hearing?
A/B files are available in the description of the video. The ones to compare are the Drum track Pro Q3 and Drum track Neve.
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 16, 2023 17:19:45 GMT -6
Haven’t listened to the video yet, but under certain conditions (level dependent I’d bet) inductors can saturate very nicely.
When I owned my Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmod, I had an experience with a very strident ukulele track. It was a live recording, full band, with a di coming off the ukulele. Horrible acoustic environment, tons of issues in the recording. I decided to run everything through HW to get things as good as possible. So here’s the weird part…the high end was strident and piercing. But when i ran it into the 7602 and boosted the high end it got much better. It was very counter intuitive. How could boosting harsh frequencies make them less harsh? But the saturation from the inductors really smoothed out the high end. It was light bulb moment for sure.
So to answer your question, my experience is that at normal “proper” levels the magic is rarely there. But when pushed, things start to change in, hopefully, good ways with analog gear.
That’s my 2 cents anyway, I’m sure some will disagree. But my overall point is that great gear really shows its value when it’s pushed to one extreme or the other. (Within limits of course).
YMMV
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Post by OtisGreying on Dec 16, 2023 20:05:59 GMT -6
Haven’t listened to the video yet, but under certain conditions (level dependent I’d bet) inductors can saturate very nicely. When I owned my Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmod, I had an experience with a very strident ukulele track. It was a live recording, full band, with a di coming off the ukulele. Horrible acoustic environment, tons of issues in the recording. I decided to run everything through HW to get things as good as possible. So here’s the weird part…the high end was strident and piercing. But when i ran it into the 7602 and boosted the high end it got much better. It was very counter intuitive. How could boosting harsh frequencies make them less harsh? But the saturation from the inductors really smoothed out the high end. It was light bulb moment for sure. So to answer your question, my experience is that at normal “proper” levels the magic is rarely there. But when pushed, things start to change in, hopefully, good ways with analog gear. That’s my 2 cents anyway, I’m sure some will disagree. But my overall point is that great gear really shows its value when it’s pushed to one extreme or the other. (Within limits of course). YMMV Agreed. |
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 16, 2023 20:48:22 GMT -6
When I go create a piece of hardware from scratch, first I make the circuit with my generic parts, then I change them to different types one at a time, listening for the changes, and measuring how many 3rds and 5th inharmonic distortion I create because some of them are desirable, while others are not.
I could see why a computer would have issues because it wouldn't know how to compensate for any loss during conversion. Problem with driving, its causes changes in these harmonics as well.
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Post by lee on Dec 17, 2023 10:45:05 GMT -6
Very interested to see this, as Eric always has something to say if it’s worth taking time to make a video about.
Similarly I also find that analog EQ seems to take the edge off sources that can get strident (piano, cymbals, etc) by brightening or boosting them. I don’t understand it but it’s something I’ve never been able to get a software EQ to do.
EDIT
Watched. If I wasn’t dependent on income, I could test and test like this all day. It’s like my brain was made for it.
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Post by OtisGreying on Dec 18, 2023 4:57:02 GMT -6
Very interested to see this, as Eric always has something to say if it’s worth taking time to make a video about. Similarly I also find that analog EQ seems to take the edge off sources that can get strident (piano, cymbals, etc) by brightening or boosting them. I don’t understand it but it’s something I’ve never been able to get a software EQ to do. EDIT Watched. If I wasn’t dependent on income, I could test and test like this all day. It’s like my brain was made for it. I suspect its because boosting the high information would result in more harmonic distortion (for analog gear) of the high frequency area as its being driven into the analog harder than the rest of the signal, and harmonic distortion more or less can have a smoothing sound/effect on the highend while making it brighter/ more present too. Haven’t listened to the video yet, but under certain conditions (level dependent I’d bet) inductors can saturate very nicely. When I owned my Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmod, I had an experience with a very strident ukulele track. It was a live recording, full band, with a di coming off the ukulele. Horrible acoustic environment, tons of issues in the recording. I decided to run everything through HW to get things as good as possible. So here’s the weird part…the high end was strident and piercing. But when i ran it into the 7602 and boosted the high end it got much better. It was very counter intuitive. How could boosting harsh frequencies make them less harsh? But the saturation from the inductors really smoothed out the high end. It was light bulb moment for sure. So to answer your question, my experience is that at normal “proper” levels the magic is rarely there. But when pushed, things start to change in, hopefully, good ways with analog gear. That’s my 2 cents anyway, I’m sure some will disagree. But my overall point is that great gear really shows its value when it’s pushed to one extreme or the other. (Within limits of course). YMMV Sort of like EV talks about in the video about how he used tape machines with the EQ, he would drive high frequency signals into the tape machine harder to get more bite/mojo/saturation out of the tape machine and back off on lower frequency signals. But as he's said before it would make things brighter while making them smoother too which is why he really likes using tape.
This is a rabbit hole im going down atm, I think the allure with analog EQ may be that the harmonic distortion provided with the unit when boosting signal smooths out the boost to where it sounds more natural to the ear, I suspect that has something to do with our love for analog EQ's
For example I've been using a Neve 542 Tape emulator and I'm finding that if I gain stage it to where my vocals Ess's are taking the signal almost to clipping the 542, the Ess's are effectively clipping but sound less piercing as a result of the distortion. You can even see it in the waveform that its not as spikey compared to the same take straight from the preamp, (I'm splitting the vocal one dry one through the 542). Meanwhile the whole signal/vocal gets a slight boost in presence and thickness from the saturation.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 18, 2023 10:26:20 GMT -6
I’ve openly speculated that I’m not really great at determining the quality of an eq…like people have asked what the eq sounded like on a unit I was demoing…and I’m like “it’s fine - it did what it said it was going to do…” Maybe I just don’t have enough experience with HW EQ. I remember asking roundbadge (I think it was him) the old “what would you suggest if you could only have one piece of HW on the master…” question and his response was a really nice HW stereo EQ. Surprised me. It’s really the only thing I haven’t added over the years just because I doubted it would give me much more than ITB EQ. But I guess if you had something with big transformers, it’s going to color like a comp would… |
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 18, 2023 11:54:05 GMT -6
I’ve openly speculated that I’m not really great at determining the quality of an eq…like people have asked what the eq sounded like on a unit I was demoing…and I’m like “it’s fine - it did what it said it was going to do…” Maybe I just don’t have enough experience with HW EQ. I remember asking roundbadge (I think it was him) the old “what would you suggest if you could only have one piece of HW on the master…” question and his response was a really nice HW stereo EQ. Surprised me. It’s really the only thing I haven’t added over the years just because I doubted it would give me much more than ITB EQ. But I guess if you had something with big transformers, it’s going to color like a comp would…
I think a good sounding EQ is a good sounding EQ.
As far as transformers, Its whether or not they are using a transparent sounding one or one that 'colors'.
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Post by lee on Dec 18, 2023 12:15:19 GMT -6
Very interested to see this, as Eric always has something to say if it’s worth taking time to make a video about. Similarly I also find that analog EQ seems to take the edge off sources that can get strident (piano, cymbals, etc) by brightening or boosting them. I don’t understand it but it’s something I’ve never been able to get a software EQ to do. EDIT Watched. If I wasn’t dependent on income, I could test and test like this all day. It’s like my brain was made for it. I suspect its because boosting the high information would result in more harmonic distortion (for analog gear) of the high frequency area as its being driven into the analog harder than the rest of the signal, and harmonic distortion more or less can have a smoothing sound/effect on the highend while making it brighter/ more present too. Haven’t listened to the video yet, but under certain conditions (level dependent I’d bet) inductors can saturate very nicely. When I owned my Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmod, I had an experience with a very strident ukulele track. It was a live recording, full band, with a di coming off the ukulele. Horrible acoustic environment, tons of issues in the recording. I decided to run everything through HW to get things as good as possible. So here’s the weird part…the high end was strident and piercing. But when i ran it into the 7602 and boosted the high end it got much better. It was very counter intuitive. How could boosting harsh frequencies make them less harsh? But the saturation from the inductors really smoothed out the high end. It was light bulb moment for sure. So to answer your question, my experience is that at normal “proper” levels the magic is rarely there. But when pushed, things start to change in, hopefully, good ways with analog gear. That’s my 2 cents anyway, I’m sure some will disagree. But my overall point is that great gear really shows its value when it’s pushed to one extreme or the other. (Within limits of course). YMMV Sort of like EV talks about in the video about how he used tape machines with the EQ, he would drive high frequency signals into the tape machine harder to get more bite/mojo/saturation out of the tape machine and back off on lower frequency signals. But as he's said before it would make things brighter while making them smoother too which is why he really likes using tape.
This is a rabbit hole im going down atm, I think the allure with analog EQ may be that the harmonic distortion provided with the unit when boosting signal smooths out the boost to where it sounds more natural to the ear, I suspect that has something to do with our love for analog EQ's
For example I've been using a Neve 542 Tape emulator and I'm finding that if I gain stage it to where my vocals Ess's are taking the signal almost to clipping the 542, the Ess's are effectively clipping but sound less piercing as a result of the distortion. You can even see it in the waveform that its not as spikey compared to the same take straight from the preamp, (I'm splitting the vocal one dry one through the 542). Meanwhile the whole signal/vocal gets a slight boost in presence and thickness from the saturation.
The harmonic distortion thing makes the most sense, but it's also the least intuitive. My instinct anyway is to assume that something I already find harsh sounding will be made MORE harsh by distortion. But I guess we're talking very low levels of it. |
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 18, 2023 12:23:09 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things.
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Post by robo on Dec 18, 2023 12:36:01 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. I think this is the best bang-for-the-buck approach to hardware. Color is where analog shines, and it can be had relatively cheap. For me, the main appeal in tracking with hardware is fast, intuitive, and gets things sounding finished as we go. Beyond that, I agree boosting high end on an analog eq tends to be less harsh. This can be somewhat mimicked ITB by putting a subtle saturation plugin (Fuse, Kush) after a clean eq. |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Dec 18, 2023 14:12:30 GMT -6
I love using analog EQs for gentle shaping and getting rid of certain wacky frequencies that aren't helpful at all right at the source. I would say some analog EQs do have a certain musicality that is wonderful, and make my life easier. I love my Kush Electras, Chameleon 7603s, and Alice 828 Baxandalls.
That said, Sie-Q is a desert island flavor EQ plugin for me. Beautiful sounding. And Pro-Q is one of the best things Ive ever used in the studio.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 19, 2023 17:00:21 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. Who's the guy? |
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Post by poppaflavor on Dec 19, 2023 22:41:45 GMT -6
The harmonic distortion thing makes the most sense, but it's also the least intuitive. My instinct anyway is to assume that something I already find harsh sounding will be made MORE harsh by distortion. But I guess we're talking very low levels of it. That's what my instinct says as well, but the Cranborne Carnaby 500 saturation EQ flies in the face of that logic. www.cranborne-audio.com/carnaby500SOS reviews it here: www.soundonsound.com/reviews/cranborne-audio-carnaby-500-harmonic-eqWhereas I understand saturating as *adding* information in the form of overtone harmonics, apparently this thing does cuts in conjunction with harmonic saturation. I've been eyeing it for months, but haven't pulled the trigger perhaps mostly because I just don't understand it. |
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Post by anders on Dec 20, 2023 0:36:18 GMT -6
[…] I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical […] would that be the small cans with a fastening nut at the end, about the size of your outer index finger joint? |
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Post by theshea on Dec 20, 2023 1:14:27 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. i could send you some tracks. i am using acustica black guru for this purpose and its a neve (i think genesys neve) preamp its sampled from. it makes everything sound more analog to my ears. i do this in my premix phase rather often lately and than bounce in place and start mixing. so it would be interesting to hear the difference between using the acustica black guru and sending tracks through your box. will pm you later. i could send the tracks out to my neve preamp but that takes longer so i use the black guru plugin. it makes everything less harsh, spiky, everyhings becomes a bit more compressed/compact and the sound steps back a bit (not so in your face). i call it „more mix ready“. |
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 20, 2023 7:11:58 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. Who's the guy? |
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 20, 2023 7:12:51 GMT -6
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 20, 2023 7:15:36 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. i could send you some tracks. i am using acustica black guru for this purpose and its a neve (i think genesys neve) preamp its sampled from. it makes everything sound more analog to my ears. i do this in my premix phase rather often lately and than bounce in place and start mixing. so it would be interesting to hear the difference between using the acustica black guru and sending tracks through your box. will pm you later. i could send the tracks out to my neve preamp but that takes longer so i use the black guru plugin. it makes everything less harsh, spiky, everyhings becomes a bit more compressed/compact and the sound steps back a bit (not so in your face). i call it „more mix ready“. PM'd you back....It would be cool to maybe share the results in another thread if you're cool with that when I'm finished. |
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Post by anders on Dec 20, 2023 8:40:28 GMT -6
Oooooh. I have three NOS of those in a drawer somewhere. They are the stock input transformers in older Tore Seem mic pres |
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 20, 2023 8:44:38 GMT -6
Oooooh. I have three NOS of those in a drawer somewhere. They are the stock input transformers in older Tore Seem mic pres Interesting......Never heard of those desks. The Beyers are by far my favorite. They do this little bit of phase smearing that makes everything sound a little wider and deeper. They also add this nice compression/saturation that just seems to balance out the frequencies in a track in a very musical way. |
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Post by copperx on Dec 20, 2023 12:50:28 GMT -6
I've made made many tests and for most purposes, HW and SW equalizers are mostly indistinguishable if they are using the same curves.
However, hardware is better because:
* I like to EQ when I'm recording pre HW compression, and I can't do that in software without an AD/DA round trip.
* Ergonomics. Twisting the frequency and bandwidth or gain knobs can be done with two hands very quickly. I could use a control surface like the Console 1, but there is no muscle memory there, because the encoders are infinite.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 30, 2024 4:31:14 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. The power of boosting when you have some transformers after it....
I dove in deep after I read this comment of yours and bought some transformer boxes to put across my converter, a couple from Alex (fantastic seller) and another seller
Through experimenting with pushing mixes and stems into the transformers across the mix, getting the sweet spot, I've found not only the transformers to be literal mixing secret weapons, but the buildup of analog-ness (harmonic distortion I believe?) has continued to confirm what I think is happening with analog EQ's sounding better. The transformers allow me to BOOST the hell out of a certain frequency area with EQ that perhaps needs some work and just bully it into working. Lol. For example +9DB at 100hz into 2 sets of transformers then pull back 9DB of 100hz after the transformers - Whoa, very interesting gelled sound, it's about the same level but a different tone/shape so to speak. Did the same thing with high midrange, gells those frequencies together. No more poking. Soothe Schmoothe! Transformers I'm thinking, are how records existed before soothe and multiband compression
Thanks for the recommendation, buying transformer boxes certainly are a very wallet-friendly way to get some serious mixing horsepower into ones setup, and they look really cool!
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Post by nick8801 on Jun 30, 2024 8:40:33 GMT -6
I've come to the conclusion after years of going back and forth between hardware and software, that I really don't need hardware to do eq or compression. It's the harmonic distortion I get from pushing into those units that makes things sound analog (to my ears). Mentioned this in a few previous threads, but I found a guy on Reverb that wires up old transformers into little line level boxes. I have some old Beyerdynamic Mic transformers that are just magical, a pair of no name audio transformers that add this nice, focused dirt to things, and a set of old Neve transformers that make everything a little smoother and bigger. All together they cost me maybe 500 bux and they definitely do "the thing". I don't have any hardware to compare to at the moment, but taking a track that has some nice plugins on it for eq/compression, and hitting those boxes, sounds pretty much like what I remembered by outboard doing to the signal. If anyone here wants me to run some tracks for testing purposes, I'm happy to do it! I'm curious to hear what other people are hearing with these things. The power of boosting when you have some transformers after it....
I dove in deep after I read this comment of yours and bought some transformer boxes to put across my converter, a couple from Alex (fantastic seller) and another seller
Through experimenting with pushing mixes and stems into the transformers across the mix, getting the sweet spot, I've found not only the transformers to be literal mixing secret weapons, but the buildup of analog-ness (harmonic distortion I believe?) has continued to confirm what I think is happening with analog EQ's sounding better. The transformers allow me to BOOST the hell out of a certain frequency area with EQ that perhaps needs some work and just bully it into working. Lol. For example +9DB at 100hz into 2 sets of transformers then pull back 9DB of 100hz after the transformers - Whoa, very interesting gelled sound, it's about the same level but a different tone/shape so to speak. Did the same thing with high midrange, gells those frequencies together. No more poking. Soothe Schmoothe! Transformers I'm thinking, are how records existed before soothe and multiband compression
Thanks for the recommendation, buying transformer boxes certainly are a very wallet-friendly way to get some serious mixing horsepower into ones setup, and they look really cool!
Awesome to hear! Alex is a great guy…. The transformers definitely allow you to push into something without specifically compressing. It definitely creates compression through the harmonic distortion that it creates, but there’s no ratio/attack release stuff happening. You definitely have to find a sweet spot, and the right type of transformers for the job, but it absolutely takes care of that analog thing that so many of us long for when mixing in the box. |
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Post by nick8801 on Jun 30, 2024 8:44:34 GMT -6
Oh, and there’s also some interesting phase things that happen with certain transformers too. My Beyers do something psychoacoustic to the stereo image and the low end that sounds very vintage for lack of a better word. Years ago I took a mastering class with a very well known guy that works for Izotope. He suggested that if you want the sound of tape to just shift the phase of your left and right channels a few degrees. I never actually tried that, but I get what he was implying now.
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