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Post by copperx on Sept 13, 2023 13:23:40 GMT -6
So I've been looking to buy a MOTU 828es/1248/16A for a long time, but rumours say that they will not be in stock until mid 2024 because of chip shortages.
Are there any comparable interfaces in with a similar price/features ratio?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 16:06:21 GMT -6
I do profusely apologise for not selling you mine but I just went through a heap of trouble and a $200.00 upcharge on audio equipment I bought from the US (and it wasn't that big or expensive). Since brexit / covid selling abroad has become a serious issue, my point is you're better off buying local and I like to believe I'm a nice person so I'd always want what's best for you.
Anyway, Lynx or Metric Halo has never once served me wrong. TBH the SSL big Six is a very good sounding board if you forget that it's an "all-in-one" mixer, don't expect much from anything but the stripped G-Bus comp. Sorry to anyone who reads this but I have better (like $1 - $2K a channel) but as an audio interface and HW routing matrix it's surprisingly very difficult to beat.
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Post by copperx on Sept 13, 2023 16:41:57 GMT -6
I do profusely apologise for not selling you mine but I just went through a heap of trouble and a $200.00 upcharge on audio equipment I bought from the US (and it wasn't that big or expensive). Since brexit / covid selling abroad has become a serious issue, my point is you're better off buying local and I like to believe I'm a nice person so I'd always want what's best for you. Anyway, Lynx or Metric Halo has never once served me wrong. TBH the SSL big Six is a very good sounding board if you forget that it's an "all-in-one" mixer, don't expect much from anything but the stripped G-Bus comp. Sorry to anyone who reads this but I have better (like $1 - $2K a channel) but as an audio interface and HW routing matrix it's surprisingly very difficult to beat. Oh, no problem at all. I figured something had happened on your end. Actually, I had never considered the SSL Big Six before; I didn't know it was a 16 channel interface. The whole package looks fantastic, it might even help me hold off the Smart compressor I've been wanting to buy. Sure, everything looks a bit gimped compared to a real console, but it looks usable. Are the preamps any good? Still, it's a bit on the pricier side. I'll look also into the Lynx offerings. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 17:01:46 GMT -6
Lynx Aurora (N) is better anyway. Get it on thunderbolt if you can on windows or use a PCI-E card
Metric Halo mk IV and Apogee Symphony II SE units are available but more expensive and Mac only.
Apogee is much better than MOTU AVB soundwise.
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Post by copperx on Sept 13, 2023 17:50:15 GMT -6
It looks like all of the comparable units are around 3k. I'm thinking the Apogee Symphony mkI might be a good compromise.
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 13, 2023 17:59:43 GMT -6
I like MOTU, but if you can't get your hands on one anyway it's sort of "not an option" --> I moved to Lynx Aurora (n) and basically never looked back. If MOTU 16a was easily available though (and especially if updated with the color metering of their M2/M4 units) I personally wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I was without an interface. MOTU is a really good balance between quality and price. In my opinion though, so is Aurora (n) but it's higher quality (to my ears) and the benefit costs more per channel with at least some diminishing returns --> still worth it to me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2023 19:42:53 GMT -6
I do profusely apologise for not selling you mine but I just went through a heap of trouble and a $200.00 upcharge on audio equipment I bought from the US (and it wasn't that big or expensive). Since brexit / covid selling abroad has become a serious issue, my point is you're better off buying local and I like to believe I'm a nice person so I'd always want what's best for you. Anyway, Lynx or Metric Halo has never once served me wrong. TBH the SSL big Six is a very good sounding board if you forget that it's an "all-in-one" mixer, don't expect much from anything but the stripped G-Bus comp. Sorry to anyone who reads this but I have better (like $1 - $2K a channel) but as an audio interface and HW routing matrix it's surprisingly very difficult to beat. Oh, no problem at all. I figured something had happened on your end. Actually, I had never considered the SSL Big Six before; I didn't know it was a 16 channel interface. The whole package looks fantastic, it might even help me hold off the Smart compressor I've been wanting to buy. Sure, everything looks a bit gimped compared to a real console, but it looks usable. Are the preamps any good? Still, it's a bit on the pricier side. I'll look also into the Lynx offerings. Lynx TB has the RTT VSTI advantage that's for sure. As for the desk, routing matrix and bus comp is worth the price of admission alone if you have some external HW.. The rest? Average including the mic amps, they're certainly not a Shelford but one of those costs more than the entire desk.
In terms of general sound quality, above the $1500.00 in terms of conversion or analogue quality the differences start loosing focus for me. Best sounding sub $7.5 desk I've heard for sure.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 14, 2023 10:03:44 GMT -6
Not sure what your i/o needs are but the MOTU 24ao is still in stock at Sweetwater and it looks like they have a demo unit of the 24ai in stock.
I have this pairing in my rehearsal studio and it works nicely. I track at super low buffer settings since there are no plugins running and get sub 2ms RTL using Studio One. Conversion? Yes. The signal starts out as analog and then later it's on my computer and sounds like what it sounded like when we played it. So yes, conversion.
No preamps or headphone outs or anything so maybe not a fit depending on what other gear you have.
If not that, I would personally get the SSL Big Six just because it looks fun to use and I like mixers.
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Post by copperx on Sept 14, 2023 15:18:51 GMT -6
Not sure what your i/o needs are but the MOTU 24ao is still in stock at Sweetwater and it looks like they have a demo unit of the 24ai in stock. I have this pairing in my rehearsal studio and it works nicely. I track at super low buffer settings since there are no plugins running and get sub 2ms RTL using Studio One. Conversion? Yes. The signal starts out as analog and then later it's on my computer and sounds like what it sounded like when we played it. So yes, conversion. No preamps or headphone outs or anything so maybe not a fit depending on what other gear you have. If not that, I would personally get the SSL Big Six just because it looks fun to use and I like mixers. That's nice! That's a lot of I/O. But I think it's a bit impractical to have two boxes because I don't need all that I/O, and having some quality of life things like headphone outs would be nice in a single package. The SSL Big Six looks like the top contender, but at that price the Aurora (n) is a close second. Buy to be honest I just want 8 to 16 channels for $1.5k or less. That's what MOTU offers. It seems that there are no MOTU contenders at that price point, which sucks  Maybe I'll have to go RME, or Apogee Symphony mkI. Hmm. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 14, 2023 15:45:07 GMT -6
Not sure what your i/o needs are but the MOTU 24ao is still in stock at Sweetwater and it looks like they have a demo unit of the 24ai in stock. I have this pairing in my rehearsal studio and it works nicely. I track at super low buffer settings since there are no plugins running and get sub 2ms RTL using Studio One. Conversion? Yes. The signal starts out as analog and then later it's on my computer and sounds like what it sounded like when we played it. So yes, conversion. No preamps or headphone outs or anything so maybe not a fit depending on what other gear you have. If not that, I would personally get the SSL Big Six just because it looks fun to use and I like mixers. That's nice! That's a lot of I/O. But I think it's a bit impractical to have two boxes because I don't need all that I/O, and having some quality of life things like headphone outs would be nice in a single package. The SSL Big Six looks like the top contender, but at that price the Aurora (n) is a close second. Buy to be honest I just want 8 to 16 channels for $1.5k or less. That's what MOTU offers. It seems that there are no MOTU contenders at that price point, which sucks Maybe I'll have to go RME, or Apogee Symphony mkI. Hmm. For my actual studio I use 828es and it's really hard (impossible?) to beat at that price point. Real bummer that they're not available anywhere. |
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Post by sirthought on Sept 14, 2023 15:52:35 GMT -6
You might like the features on the new RME Fireface 802 FS over those older MOTU units.
The 802 FS has everything that their flagship UFX III has, except they leave out the MADI connections, and the layout is different. Same as UFX III, both units have SPDIF, ADAT, AES, four onboard preamps, 12 analog I/O, MIDI, and the exact same converters...which are their top of the line. It's $900 less compared to the UFX III. Both came out this year.
These are upgraded converters from the previous model, mainly because they changed the chip vendor after that fire. I've heard people say the new converters give Lynx a run for its money, but I couldn't compare them.
You do get some DSP software for tracking. I think when it comes to learning curve on complicated routing software, RME and MOTU are probably in the same boat. But there are some things in the RME that are just updated in a nice way.
I'd say if networked expansion isn't a priority for you, this unit should definitely be on your list.
I really love the sound you get with Metric Halo, and if you have multiple units they work very well together. But they do have more latency when tracking natively that you just won't run into with RME. Tracking with their own software will be almost no latency, same as something like UAD or Pro Tools.
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Post by svart on Sept 15, 2023 6:45:51 GMT -6
I have an 828es, 24AI and 24AO and the price/performance is hard to beat. Rock solid and sounds great. The ONLY downside is that damn MOTU router matrix is such a pain.
I came from SSL and while I had been using their converter gear for a while, their support sucked (I had an error message that they didn't even know what it was) and they dropped support for my gear without so much as an email to notify me, so I'm biased against them currently.
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Post by enlav on Sept 15, 2023 7:08:22 GMT -6
I have an old client who swears by a Presonus Quantum they have, but it's the 32x32 one (DB25 connectors). Similar price, more IO, but my experience with older Presonus units is lukewarm. I'm sure they sound better than they did 20 years ago though.
It's going to be hard to beat MOTU for the value. I could have sworn that there was a similar interface with maybe less functionality from one of the lesser spoke-of manufacturers (like Ferrofish?), but I'm not finding it at the moment.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 15, 2023 8:24:07 GMT -6
I have an old client who swears by a Presonus Quantum they have, but it's the 32x32 one (DB25 connectors). Similar price, more IO, but my experience with older Presonus units is lukewarm. I'm sure they sound better than they did 20 years ago though. It's going to be hard to beat MOTU for the value. I could have sworn that there was a similar interface with maybe less functionality from one of the lesser spoke-of manufacturers (like Ferrofish?), but I'm not finding it at the moment. The Quantum stuff sounds pretty dang good for conversion. I’ve been bouncing back and forth between one and an Aurora N rig, and an Apollo 8X of late, and for me it’s a non-issue. The best thing about it, is the inherently low latency. The pres are meh, but I’ve used them for DI bass and that was fine. I also use a Dangerous D-Box and a RND headphone amp, so I’m not hampered by the Presonus monitor control section and headphone outs which aren’t the best. |
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Post by enlav on Sept 15, 2023 9:47:10 GMT -6
The Quantum stuff sounds pretty dang good for conversion. I’ve been bouncing back and forth between one and an Aurora N rig, and an Apollo 8X of late, and for me it’s a non-issue. The best thing about it, is the inherently low latency. The pres are meh, but I’ve used them for DI bass and that was fine. I also use a Dangerous D-Box and a RND headphone amp, so I’m not hampered by the Presonus monitor control section and headphone outs which aren’t the best. That's great news. Double checked the model name, the Quantum 4848 is technically a legacy product now, but a few places may still have them new.
Way more IO than copperx wants, but comparable from a price standpoint to some of the MOTU units.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2023 10:13:33 GMT -6
You might like the features on the new RME Fireface 802 FS over those older MOTU units. The 802 FS has everything that their flagship UFX III has, except they leave out the MADI connections, and the layout is different. Same as UFX III, both units have SPDIF, ADAT, AES, four onboard preamps, 12 analog I/O, MIDI, and the exact same converters...which are their top of the line. It's $900 less compared to the UFX III. Both came out this year. These are upgraded converters from the previous model, mainly because they changed the chip vendor after that fire. I've heard people say the new converters give Lynx a run for its money, but I couldn't compare them. You do get some DSP software for tracking. I think when it comes to learning curve on complicated routing software, RME and MOTU are probably in the same boat. But there are some things in the RME that are just updated in a nice way. I'd say if networked expansion isn't a priority for you, this unit should definitely be on your list. I really love the sound you get with Metric Halo, and if you have multiple units they work very well together. But they do have more latency when tracking natively that you just won't run into with RME. Tracking with their own software will be almost no latency, same as something like UAD or Pro Tools. RME interfaces have worse sound quality, build, and higher latency than the good thunderbolt interfaces. Not UAD whose rtl over thunderbolt is about equivalent to RME’s over USB. They’re not competitive outside of their pci-e cards and digital backends. |
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Post by plinker on Sept 15, 2023 10:20:54 GMT -6
I really love the sound you get with Metric Halo, and if you have multiple units they work very well together. But they do have more latency when tracking natively that you just won't run into with RME. Tracking with their own software will be almost no latency, same as something like UAD or Pro Tools. The new Mk4 ULN8 and LIO8 units, from MH, have extremely low latency -- something like 16 samples. They are also on sale right now for about $3100 for the ULN8. !!! |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 15, 2023 10:31:19 GMT -6
The Quantum stuff sounds pretty dang good for conversion. I’ve been bouncing back and forth between one and an Aurora N rig, and an Apollo 8X of late, and for me it’s a non-issue. The best thing about it, is the inherently low latency. The pres are meh, but I’ve used them for DI bass and that was fine. I also use a Dangerous D-Box and a RND headphone amp, so I’m not hampered by the Presonus monitor control section and headphone outs which aren’t the best. That's great news. Double checked the model name, the Quantum 4848 is technically a legacy product now, but a few places may still have them new.
Way more IO than copperx wants, but comparable from a price standpoint to some of the MOTU units.
I’m talking about the 8 channel box of that same vintage. But I don’t think the conversion or line stages are very different. |
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Post by copperx on Sept 16, 2023 19:01:19 GMT -6
RME interfaces have worse sound quality, build, and higher latency than the good thunderbolt interfaces. Not UAD whose rtl over thunderbolt is about equivalent to RME’s over USB. They’re not competitive outside of their pci-e cards and digital backends. In your opinion, is the analog section of the RME compromised? Would the chip upgrades of the 802FS be largely irrelevant because of the analog path? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 20:39:11 GMT -6
The Quantum stuff sounds pretty dang good for conversion. I’ve been bouncing back and forth between one and an Aurora N rig, and an Apollo 8X of late, and for me it’s a non-issue. The best thing about it, is the inherently low latency. The pres are meh, but I’ve used them for DI bass and that was fine. I also use a Dangerous D-Box and a RND headphone amp, so I’m not hampered by the Presonus monitor control section and headphone outs which aren’t the best. That's great news. Double checked the model name, the Quantum 4848 is technically a legacy product now, but a few places may still have them new.
Way more IO than copperx wants, but comparable from a price standpoint to some of the MOTU units.
Presonus is generic Chinese prosumer circuits now. JRC4580 opamp based. Same as Behringer. Not clear. Murky. Not very hifi. Tracks recorded through them, especially through their pres, need a lot of work. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 20:44:58 GMT -6
RME interfaces have worse sound quality, build, and higher latency than the good thunderbolt interfaces. Not UAD whose rtl over thunderbolt is about equivalent to RME’s over USB. They’re not competitive outside of their pci-e cards and digital backends. In your opinion, is the analog section of the RME compromised? Would the chip upgrades of the 802FS be largely irrelevant because of the analog path? I think they have a new analog path but multichannel rme da was jrc4580 based and I kinda doubt they’ve changed it up. Antialias filter was previously a short fir filter with inadequate band rejection on its own followed by an analog iir filter. Lower latency at the expense of phase shifted top end. They’re built to a severe price point because their brand is positioned where it is above the total crap like Focusrite and Behringer but beneath Lynx and Apogee. Tascam made better converters than RME and Presonus for a while but stopped post Gibson bankruptcy and Covid. The DA 3000 was good. So was the multichannel interface but the new ones aren’t nearly as high end. The drivers sucked on the older Tascam units and the da3000 did the right thing and didn’t even pretend to have them. |
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Post by drumsound on Sept 16, 2023 22:08:49 GMT -6
Not sure what your i/o needs are but the MOTU 24ao is still in stock at Sweetwater and it looks like they have a demo unit of the 24ai in stock. I have this pairing in my rehearsal studio and it works nicely. I track at super low buffer settings since there are no plugins running and get sub 2ms RTL using Studio One. Conversion? Yes. The signal starts out as analog and then later it's on my computer and sounds like what it sounded like when we played it. So yes, conversion. No preamps or headphone outs or anything so maybe not a fit depending on what other gear you have. If not that, I would personally get the SSL Big Six just because it looks fun to use and I like mixers. That's nice! That's a lot of I/O. But I think it's a bit impractical to have two boxes because I don't need all that I/O, and having some quality of life things like headphone outs would be nice in a single package. The SSL Big Six looks like the top contender, but at that price the Aurora (n) is a close second. Buy to be honest I just want 8 to 16 channels for $1.5k or less. That's what MOTU offers. It seems that there are no MOTU contenders at that price point, which sucks Maybe I'll have to go RME, or Apogee Symphony mkI. Hmm. The cool thing about RME is that there will always be drivers. They still write drivers for their legacy products. You can use a 20 year old RME on a brand new computer. |
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Post by anders on Sept 17, 2023 1:30:15 GMT -6
If you're on a mac, the Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt (not the old FW version) is quite nice, and sounds like it would give what you're asking. They seem to sell second hand on eBay for around what you're mentioning.
Aside from what you'd expect from an interface in this class (8 in /8 out etc) you get 2 additional hi Z DIs on the front with loopthrough and 2 guitar level reamp outs in addition to your regular outs. There is stereo monitor out as well, and two separate headphone outs (and a talkback), so before expansion, that gives you 8 + 2 analog ins (plus talkback) and 8 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 analog outs (and some spdif) if I have my numbers correctly. It can be expanded with 8 ins/4 outs + 2x headphones) via optical and Thunderbolt with an Apogee Elements, or you can Go Large with another Ensemble.
The mac control software gives you full control and several different mixers that can be routed to outputs as fit and save snapshots, and if you're on Logic (like I am), you can control input levels, P48, etc directly from the channel strips.
So yes, I like it quite a lot.
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Post by copperx on Sept 17, 2023 1:53:01 GMT -6
anders, the Ensemble looks fantastic indeed. I hadn't considered it. It checks every single box in my requirements! The only thing is that I am not exclusively on a Mac. I wonder whether adding something like an RME Digiface USB would solve the Windows portion of the equation. Because, well, it looks like Ensemble has everything I'm looking for. I'm just not comfortable having an interface dictate which OS I should use. Seems backwards. But I'm thinking it might be worth it. The Apogee preamps seem very convenient.
I just found out that a similar box (in features) is the Avid Carbon. Preamps and, I believe, DAD conversion. It's $2k without software. Just a small detail; I'm not using ProTools. I wonder whether I could use it in other DAWs without losing functionality.
The MOTU Ultralite AVB and MK5 are in stock, too. From what I've read, their drivers are a downgrade from their better units, which is a shame.
I'll guess the box with the least drawbacks wins.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 18, 2023 12:56:18 GMT -6
anders, the Ensemble looks fantastic indeed. I hadn't considered it. It checks every single box in my requirements! The only thing is that I am not exclusively on a Mac. I wonder whether adding something like an RME Digiface USB would solve the Windows portion of the equation. Because, well, it looks like Ensemble has everything I'm looking for. I'm just not comfortable having an interface dictate which OS I should use. Seems backwards. But I'm thinking it might be worth it. The Apogee preamps seem very convenient. I just found out that a similar box (in features) is the Avid Carbon. Preamps and, I believe, DAD conversion. It's $2k without software. Just a small detail; I'm not using ProTools. I wonder whether I could use it in other DAWs without losing functionality. The MOTU Ultralite AVB and MK5 are in stock, too. From what I've read, their drivers are a downgrade from their better units, which is a shame. I'll guess the box with the least drawbacks wins. I use the MOTU Ultralite AVB nearly every day in my rehearsal studio. I have a 24ao and a 24ai hooked up to it through an AVB box and I've never had a hiccup. I've literally got that thing maxxed out so I feel like if there were driver issues, I would have experienced them. The Ultralite is a cool little box if you ask me. A surprising amount of I/O packed in there. One thing I really like about MOTU is that each input is independent. So it's not like others where they list all these inputs on a small box but some of them actually cancel out the others. You really can run 10 analog inputs into that thing. It's crowded back there, but it works! |
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