|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 27, 2023 17:34:48 GMT -6
Asking for a friend. (really!)
He needs to stay under $500 (there goes RME Babyface), unit must be solid with Apple M1, must have DI ability (simplicity of single unit is far favored over separate DI box).
I'll find out soon, but currently I'm unsure about amp modeling needs, and whether he's comfortable monitoring a DI signal. I'm sure if it's possible to implement a very low latency amp while tracking he'd be interested. In general, I would like to know what the state of things are latency-wise for this in 2023, never been something I paid much attention to. If amp emulation while tracking is a must, are solutions still mostly tied to the hardware (e.g., at least historically, UA)?
Overall, I'm looking for fewer channels and better sounding pres, which IME has been the weakest link in interfaces over past decade or so now that conversion is so much better these days. Still, it seems hard to find solid sounding pres on a 2 channel unit under 1k. Maybe hold out and see if anything comes up with NAMM in a few weeks?
A few of the current contenders along with some random spec notes (which I know aren't the end all be all):
MOTU M4 $270 -129 dBu EIN,
Black Lion Audio Revolution 2x2 $280
Zoom UAC-232 $200, USB2, 293 mA, EIN –127 dBu or less (IHF-A), 32bit capture
SSL SSL2+ $300, 130.5 dB EIN/62 dB gain, but USB2 powered so <500mA
Apogee Boom 2x2 $250, no idea about specs
Apogee Duet 3 2x4, $650 - way over budget, any reason to break the bank compared to Motu or Zoom?
Others I'm somewhat dismissive of:
Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 V3 $260
Focusrite Clarett 2Pre $499?
Audient ID4 MKII $200
Arturia Minifuse 4 $219
Thanks for any insight and bringing me up to speed with amp modeling and integrated preamp quality these days.
|
|
|
|
Post by subspace on Mar 27, 2023 17:43:29 GMT -6
I just picked up an Audient Sono for $200, same pre design as their console, I got it for the onboard DSP that runs Two Notes cabinet modeling. Has an onboard guitar preamp to use with the IR cabinets, makes for a decent pedal platform during tracking.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattbroiler on Mar 27, 2023 18:36:39 GMT -6
perhaps check out these XTone things from XSonic they run a high sample rate for for low latency amp sims / mobile usage they have a few different featured models to choose from - xsonicaudio.com/products/xtone-pro |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 27, 2023 22:00:42 GMT -6
MOTU m4 gets my vote. Solid pres. ESS Sabre chip for conversion. No frills, gets the job done.
Plus DSP powered mixer since it sounds like your friend is starting from scratch.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 22:42:35 GMT -6
Preamp quality mostly sucks. The Apogee and Yamaha pres are okay. The RMEs have some of the least offensive TI pga chip pres
RME Babyface Pro is what I’d recommend in the expensive bracket and the Steinberg UR22C in the cheap one. Neither sound great but functionality and latency *no politics* sound. They are fine.
An Apollo Twin can play some old Softube things in dsp.
If you want something really good, Apogee Symphony Desktop but it has higher latency because of the proper anti alias filters and off the shelf drivers. Same with Prism Lyra 2.
|
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 27, 2023 22:57:33 GMT -6
I'm curious about the 32 bit capture with the Zoom device. The idea of never worrying about clipping is kind of appealing, I imagine even more appealing for someone just starting out. Especially a guitar player.
|
|
|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 27, 2023 23:35:38 GMT -6
arturia's privacy policy was pretty damn obnoxious, didn't get very far on that site to learn about sono.
xsonic seems interesting but simplicity doesn't see to be its forte. would probably want to demo it before recommending it to friend. he is in his early 70s as a reference point.
if understanding it correctly, DSP powered mixer isn't really much of a plus, unless that's something that can help with amp modeling and latency, as we're looking at mostly solo tracking. for something like the motu, is just putting a plugin on the DAW channel that's recording, and monitoring through DAW output too much latency for practical purposes? i'm pretty out of my depth in this domain for what's state of the art. this is mostly just demo stuff, so lower quality amp emulation for minimizing latency is perfectly fine, and he can then change to better amp resolution when doing any mixing.
maybe steinberg has fixed their stuff, but having used WL Pro for years and years (and their resistance in fixing software bugs despite them literally owning the VST license), and remembering some of their early soundcards that were less stable than anything i can remember in the 90s (but this is the late 90s, memory could be faulty here), i would need some convincing it's (nearly) as solid as RME before i could trust in them.
i don't have the time or funds to demo multiple units all and see how an amp modeling scenario would work with each. if there's a tutorial, YT or thread, on this topic that is recent and relevant, i'm all ears. don't want to go down YT rabbit holes that give about as much useful info as the marketing copy on some of these units...
thanks again, appreciate the suggestions and comments thus far.
|
|
|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 27, 2023 23:49:12 GMT -6
yeah, i don't know if zoom has much for amp modeling, but did think that 32FB was interesting. kind of hard to wrap my head around, and IIRC there weren't any gain knobs? but as for UI and simplicity, although he wants something that 'just works', he is a smart guy and highly accomplished in his field (natural science / not music related, and since retired). this is just a hobby for him and he has a limited budget for it, but he and his kids have each done separate studio recordings so a quick gain staging refresher from me should be all that's needed. ergo, i'm still leaning towards motu given proven history of solid converters, but will need to look up if a round trip A?D/A + plugin in a DAW is a value low enough to be negligible to affect playing, or is still a pipe dream. i know tech has been slowly chipping away at this value, but also couldn't tell you how many ms is too much. i know me some Hass effect with drusm though  |
|
|
|
Post by collywobble on Mar 28, 2023 2:16:02 GMT -6
Depending on what your friend wants to record through it, one thing to check is the amount of headroom available on the mic/line inputs -- look up the specs for maximum input level. Many of these devices are designed primarily for podcasting and other applications based around speech, and so the preamps are aligned very hot against the converters. They want to eliminate the need for a Cloudlifter when you're recording vocals through an SM7 but the flip side of that is you don't get much headroom for loud signals.
I'm not sure why you are dismissing the Audient ID4. That's one of the few small interfaces that uses a proprietary preamp circuit rather than a generic chip-based design. Arturia's larger Audiofuse interfaces also have good pres but I'm not sure what's in the Minifuse.
I would love to know whether anyone can reliably hear the difference between the Black Lion and a generic small interface in a blind test. I am sure I couldn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 28, 2023 7:16:12 GMT -6
I'm curious about the 32 bit capture with the Zoom device. The idea of never worrying about clipping is kind of appealing, I imagine even more appealing for someone just starting out. Especially a guitar player. You can always clip an analog input or output. |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 28, 2023 7:46:15 GMT -6
I also have the M4. Sounds and works great.
|
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 9:27:39 GMT -6
I'm curious about the 32 bit capture with the Zoom device. The idea of never worrying about clipping is kind of appealing, I imagine even more appealing for someone just starting out. Especially a guitar player. You can always clip an analog input or output. Isn't the idea with 32 bit floating at the point of capture that the dynamic range is pretty much beyond what can realistically happen on Earth? Like you'd probably be dead if you were standing close enough to capture something that exceeded the range! So even though it's technically possible to exceed the range, it's not practically possible. The tech is new to me and seems to be mostly used in location work for TV/Film, but that's my understanding. It records with a 1,528 db range. Obviously you need to adjust levels once you downsample to 24bit but, at the point of capture, there is no level adjustment. www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/#:~:text=32%2Dbit%20float%20audio%20is%20similar%20to%2016%2D%20and%2024,'t%20yell%20at%20me). |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 28, 2023 9:47:37 GMT -6
You can always clip an analog input or output. Isn't the idea with 32 bit floating at the point of capture that the dynamic range is pretty much beyond what can realistically happen on Earth? Like you'd probably be dead if you were standing close enough to capture something that exceeded the range! So even though it's technically possible to exceed the range, it's not practically possible. The tech is new to me and seems to be mostly used in location work for TV/Film, but that's my understanding. It records with a 1,528 db range. Obviously you need to adjust levels once you downsample to 24bit but, at the point of capture, there is no level adjustment. www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/#:~:text=32%2Dbit%20float%20audio%20is%20similar%20to%2016%2D%20and%2024,'t%20yell%20at%20me). "Impossible to clip" means in the *digital* domain. The analog domain (real world signal) still has very real limits in voltage headroom. |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 9:59:04 GMT -6
Isn't the idea with 32 bit floating at the point of capture that the dynamic range is pretty much beyond what can realistically happen on Earth? Like you'd probably be dead if you were standing close enough to capture something that exceeded the range! So even though it's technically possible to exceed the range, it's not practically possible. The tech is new to me and seems to be mostly used in location work for TV/Film, but that's my understanding. It records with a 1,528 db range. Obviously you need to adjust levels once you downsample to 24bit but, at the point of capture, there is no level adjustment. www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/#:~:text=32%2Dbit%20float%20audio%20is%20similar%20to%2016%2D%20and%2024,'t%20yell%20at%20me). "Impossible to clip" means in the *digital* domain. The analog domain (real world signal) still has very real limits in voltage headroom. Oh yes, I see what you're saying. You can still overload the pre-amp, of course, as well as many other ways of distorting the signal. It would be pretty cool to see this type of tech in more studio focused gear. Imagine being able to push your vintage pres as hard as you want without having to worry about gain-staging until mixdown. |
|
|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 28, 2023 10:38:04 GMT -6
to earlier poster, i had heard a cheap audient unit in past and it felt like the focusrites, a bit noisy and facsimile of signal when you cranked gain. excellent points about headroom. but again, since "i don't have the time or funds to demo multiple units," i'm going by comments, reviews, past experiences, but no solid empirical evidence of current units. i definitely don't like to extrapolate from higher-end models to the cheapest ones, usually significant losses in fidelity are traded for the lower price. motu m4 roundtrip sounded great at 2.5ms per their page, then saw this thread that suggests otherwise. but n of 1 and could have just been driver issues. so, for those that have the m4, is the scenario i proposed of playing while monitoring signal through A/D(+ plugin)/A not a reality for practical purposes? any direct experience would be greatly appreciated! |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 10:46:34 GMT -6
motu m4 roundtrip sounded great at 2.5ms per their page, then saw this thread that suggests otherwise. but n of 1 and could have just been driver issues. so, for those that have the m4, is the scenario i proposed of playing while monitoring signal through A/D(+ plugin)/A not a reality for practical purposes? any direct experience would be greatly appreciated! Not sure what is going on in that thread but it doesn't seem like a MOTU issue to me as far as I can figure. I use the MOTU 828es as well as some other MOTU devices and I'm routinely hitting 2ms - 3ms including with VI's. I'm using a Mac Mini M1 with Reaper although recently I was using Studio One. In Studio One you need to use low latency mode with instruments but that's an SO issue, not a MOTU issue. Works great in that setting. |
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 28, 2023 11:22:13 GMT -6
motu m4 roundtrip sounded great at 2.5ms per their page, then saw this thread that suggests otherwise. but n of 1 and could have just been driver issues. so, for those that have the m4, is the scenario i proposed of playing while monitoring signal through A/D(+ plugin)/A not a reality for practical purposes? any direct experience would be greatly appreciated! Not sure what is going on in that thread but it doesn't seem like a MOTU issue to me as far as I can figure. I use the MOTU 828es as well as some other MOTU devices and I'm routinely hitting 2ms - 3ms including with VI's. I'm using a Mac Mini M1 with Reaper although recently I was using Studio One. In Studio One you need to use low latency mode with instruments but that's an SO issue, not a MOTU issue. Works great in that setting. 2 to 3 ms, you say? What sample rate and buffer? Connected via TB or USB? That's RTL, analog (AD) in to analog (AD) out, or are you just talking about the output latency for VIs? I'm kind of on the lookout for a relatively cheap 2x2 (or possibly slightly larger) interface for mobile use, and latency is an important consideration for me. |
|
|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 28, 2023 12:18:53 GMT -6
sounds like @gravenumber9 is saying full ADA + a plugin, right? (or is VI something different from an AU/VST etc.? i know i know, amateur hour here)
i am not active on the reaper forum but do use it daily and love it, am hoping i can get my friend to use it instead of garageband for the added power and flexibility, we'll see.
|
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 13:12:42 GMT -6
Not sure what is going on in that thread but it doesn't seem like a MOTU issue to me as far as I can figure. I use the MOTU 828es as well as some other MOTU devices and I'm routinely hitting 2ms - 3ms including with VI's. I'm using a Mac Mini M1 with Reaper although recently I was using Studio One. In Studio One you need to use low latency mode with instruments but that's an SO issue, not a MOTU issue. Works great in that setting. 2 to 3 ms, you say? What sample rate and buffer? Connected via TB or USB? That's RTL, analog (AD) in to analog (AD) out, or are you just talking about the output latency for VIs? I'm kind of on the lookout for a relatively cheap 2x2 (or possibly slightly larger) interface for mobile use, and latency is an important consideration for me. 48khz and 64 |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 28, 2023 13:15:47 GMT -6
"Impossible to clip" means in the *digital* domain. The analog domain (real world signal) still has very real limits in voltage headroom. Oh yes, I see what you're saying. You can still overload the pre-amp, of course, as well as many other ways of distorting the signal. It would be pretty cool to see this type of tech in more studio focused gear. Imagine being able to push your vintage pres as hard as you want without having to worry about gain-staging until mixdown. Not just the buffer portion, but the input to the A/D or output from the D/A chips themselves. They're typically powered from 1.8V-5V, so any amount of voltage above that would be a digital clip. The bit depth really only matters when mixing digitally when very large numbers result from complex math functions of the plugs/summing. It keeps precision up all the way through the digital signal chain. However, coming out of the D/A still requires complex processing to return the signals to voltages that an analog IC can handle, so there is always a step of bit-depth reduction and loss of precision. The argument is still out whether or not 32 bit floating point is even detectable by the human ear vs. 24 bit fixed point.. |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 14:01:14 GMT -6
2 to 3 ms, you say? What sample rate and buffer? Connected via TB or USB? That's RTL, analog (AD) in to analog (AD) out, or are you just talking about the output latency for VIs? I'm kind of on the lookout for a relatively cheap 2x2 (or possibly slightly larger) interface for mobile use, and latency is an important consideration for me. 48khz and 64 Hit send too soon. Analog RTL. Thunderbolt. |
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 28, 2023 15:09:43 GMT -6
Hit send too soon. Analog RTL. Thunderbolt. Thanks. I suspected those numbers might be on TB and not USB. Too bad the Motu M4/M2 doesn't run on TB. All of the lower priced (small/portable) interfaces seem to run on USB 2.0 with bog standard class compliant drivers, so none of them perform that well on latency. My only real option, that I'm aware of at least, seems to be a used Apollo Arrow/Solo. Those can be gotten for around $300, though at that point, I feel like I should just be looking at a used Apollo Twin so I can I can also run it I tandem with my main rig. There's just not much (if any) in the way of low priced (small/portable) TB interfaces. Oh well. |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 16:01:45 GMT -6
Hit send too soon. Analog RTL. Thunderbolt. Thanks. I suspected those numbers might be on TB and not USB. Too bad the Motu M4/M2 doesn't run on TB. All of the lower priced (small/portable) interfaces seem to run on USB 2.0 with bog standard class compliant drivers, so none of them perform that well on latency. My only real option, that I'm aware of at least, seems to be a used Apollo Arrow/Solo. Those can be gotten for around $300, though at that point, I feel like I should just be looking at a used Apollo Twin so I can I can also run it I tandem with my main rig. There's just not much (if any) in the way of low priced (small/portable) TB interfaces. Oh well. And by the time you’re looking at the twin you should just buy the x4 I never get around to listing. I’d give you a heckuva deal, it’s not making me any money in a box. |
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Mar 28, 2023 16:31:10 GMT -6
Hit send too soon. Analog RTL. Thunderbolt. Thanks. I suspected those numbers might be on TB and not USB. Too bad the Motu M4/M2 doesn't run on TB. All of the lower priced (small/portable) interfaces seem to run on USB 2.0 with bog standard class compliant drivers, so none of them perform that well on latency. My only real option, that I'm aware of at least, seems to be a used Apollo Arrow/Solo. Those can be gotten for around $300, though at that point, I feel like I should just be looking at a used Apollo Twin so I can I can also run it I tandem with my main rig. There's just not much (if any) in the way of low priced (small/portable) TB interfaces. Oh well. I bought a used Presonus Quantum on the classifieds here. I was a skeptic, but it's very low latency and sounds better than the M-Box Pro I had at home before. (I don't use either for preamps). Going between the Quantum, an Avid Omni, and an Apollo 8 at various project studios I don't notice any conversion differences worth talking about. |
|
|
|
Post by theboris on Mar 29, 2023 12:49:29 GMT -6
bump for anyone that can speak to DI'd gtr while monitoring signal post A/D(+ amp plugin)/A with a Motu M2 or M4. Is latency is too much or imperceptible to affect playing purposes?
|
|
