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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 7, 2023 19:21:50 GMT -6
Interesting thread. I've recorded with a no-hole kick (26x14, Ludwig green sparkle naturally) for about a year and have found that the inside mic (Beta 52a), mounted on a Shu, imparts an unpleasant tone similar to striking a basketball. The tone was even worse with a 91a in there. Fixing it with radical EQ is unsatisfactory- I'd rather get a good tone straight away. Plus it is a pain to adjust since you have to remove the reso head to get at the thing to move it around and the Shu is not easily adjustable- it is designed to sit in the center of the drum. I've added a dick mic (AT 4050) and it helps but still . . .
I wonder if the closed drum is part of the problem. So I'm trying a Powerstroke 3 reso head with a 5" hole. Mics will be: inside (offset about 50% toward the shell using a bar on the Shu)- Beta 52a, hole- D112 Mk2, front/outside- UT47, dick- 4050. This setup should get it done. In the end, I can always revert back if I am unhappy with the result, which is unlikely. Not a fan of using samples either, and I'd like to stop doing it. It's one thing to enhance, but it's another to have to cover up a poor recording. Which I've had to do lately.
Do you have any damping inside the kick? Pillow or anything? That’ll help with the basketball sound. |
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Post by jmoose on Feb 7, 2023 19:52:59 GMT -6
Do you have any damping inside the kick? Pillow or anything? That’ll help with the basketball sound. Indeed. I find it doesn't make a difference if the reso head is ported or sealed, a little damping against the batter head removes most of the hollow ping. Who did the rolled up towel thing? Simon Phillips? I keep a little something in both my kicks. The 18" gretsch has a small towel, old flannel shirt in the 22" yamaha. Those Evans EQ pads are a nice premade solution. Of course that all depends on the drummer letting you do anything in the first place... I find there's maybe two camps of unported heads... One is guys who are really going for something, chasing a tone and nailing it. In those cases I don't need to do much except capture what's happening. The other camp are players with the unported kick who... maybe don't know why they're playing that kinda setup? Like maybe they heard there's "more tone" or something... but the drum is either ringing in an out of control way... or its sealed & stuffed with laundry. Then all the "tricks" come out. |
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Post by matt on Feb 7, 2023 20:57:46 GMT -6
Interesting thread. I've recorded with a no-hole kick (26x14, Ludwig green sparkle naturally) for about a year and have found that the inside mic (Beta 52a), mounted on a Shu, imparts an unpleasant tone similar to striking a basketball. The tone was even worse with a 91a in there. Fixing it with radical EQ is unsatisfactory- I'd rather get a good tone straight away. Plus it is a pain to adjust since you have to remove the reso head to get at the thing to move it around and the Shu is not easily adjustable- it is designed to sit in the center of the drum. I've added a dick mic (AT 4050) and it helps but still . . .
I wonder if the closed drum is part of the problem. So I'm trying a Powerstroke 3 reso head with a 5" hole. Mics will be: inside (offset about 50% toward the shell using a bar on the Shu)- Beta 52a, hole- D112 Mk2, front/outside- UT47, dick- 4050. This setup should get it done. In the end, I can always revert back if I am unhappy with the result, which is unlikely. Not a fan of using samples either, and I'd like to stop doing it. It's one thing to enhance, but it's another to have to cover up a poor recording. Which I've had to do lately.
Do you have any damping inside the kick? Pillow or anything? That’ll help with the basketball sound. No damping inside the shell yet. But that will be next on the menu after testing without it. Plus I'm adding a wider/thicker felt strip to the batter head. It's fun to experiment! |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 7, 2023 21:11:29 GMT -6
I’ve got a really cool 24x14 WFL with no ports. Actually has what I think is the original calf front head which has its own set of peculiar little quirks…
I use the old clamp on spurs that came with my 50’s Slingerland kit, and the end of the spurs stick up a little bit and allow me to roll up and small towel and nest it between the spur arms and the reso head. Helps get rid of the basketball thing pretty well. If I need more damping I lightly rest a small light couch cushion against the head. Done!
Also have a 20x14 Rogers (no ports) that seriously has the most bottom end of any drum I’ve ever heard. If you want punch out of it you’ve gotta get a really snappy beater and get a towel laid flat on the bottom of the shell. When it’s the sound you need, nothing beats it (pun intended).
Also something that helps is the beater height. I think I heard Stanton Moore talking about this and adopted it, but he alluded to never having the beater hit the middle of the drum head. So on a 20” let it hit higher than middle, on a 24” let it hit below the middle. Makes a good bit of difference but also changes the feel of the drum so YMMV
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Post by EmRR on Feb 7, 2023 21:25:55 GMT -6
Whew, Beta 52….there’s maybe no mic I like less. Bums me out to see one!
The only time I’ve ever had to use a sample on a non-ported kick (I don’t use samples on any regular basis) was a no-tunin’-skillz MF’r with 20 year old heads and no playing technique who had a 24” for a high tempo rockabilly band that he wished was a metal band where he could look like he was breaking everything with every hit. There were broken cymbals too.
Otherwise the appropriately positioned omni always works for me. I never put a front mic in the drum anyways, always outside.
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Post by winetree on Feb 7, 2023 22:36:11 GMT -6
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Post by theshea on Feb 8, 2023 10:23:32 GMT -6
from the house of kush yt channel.
example of a miked beater (1:32):
and how it sounds:
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Post by svart on Feb 8, 2023 10:26:14 GMT -6
from the house of kush yt channel. example of a miked beater (1:32): and how it sounds: Yeah. Not my thing. If I'm being honest it sounds terrible to me. It's just a mushy pumping sound. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 8, 2023 11:50:08 GMT -6
Has no one tried putting a microphone inside the drum and then putting the head back on?
1 You can desolder the female end off a mic cable, run it in through the vent hole,
2 resolder the full sized XLRF back on, and connect to a mic inside.
3 A very short table top mic stand works well.
4 Put a rubber pad underneath it.
5 put a 5 lb weight on the stand
6 Put the mic clip back on and
7. hook up the mic on the clip
And then just put the front head back on. Mic the outside reso head and the beater point inside if you wish.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 8, 2023 12:08:49 GMT -6
Has no one tried putting a microphone inside the drum and then putting the head back on? 1 You can desolder the female end off a mic cable, run it in through the vent hole, 2 resolder the full sized XLRF back on, and connect to a mic inside. 3 A very short table top mic stand works well. 4 Put a rubber pad underneath it. 5 put a 5 lb weight on the stand 6 Put the mic clip back on and 7. hook up the mic on the clip And then just put the front head back on. Mic the outside reso head and the beater point inside if you wish. I bought a 24" Corder marching drum and drilled out one of the carrier holes so that I could put a mic inside with full heads, and not needing to solder. I did a track for gwlee7 where I put a down pillow and lied an e602 on it and it turned out great. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 8, 2023 12:19:08 GMT -6
Some of my favorite old records had the best kick tone. I tried so many things to get there, finally -duh- mic it exactly the same as a tom. Add the outer kick reverse polarity, same a tom with top/bottom mics
Ever since then no more inside kick mic
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Post by anders on Feb 8, 2023 16:55:11 GMT -6
[…] the inside mic (Beta 52a), mounted on a Shu, imparts an unpleasant tone similar to striking a basketball. […] Basketball tone is due to some kind of standing wave inside the shell, I believe. I've found it can be cured by putting a folded towel (fluffy, hand towel size) at the bottom of the drum shell (not touching the heads), and then adding some serious weight on top, like a brick, or (my preference) the sliding counterweight from a mic boom. I have a Kelly Shu with an RE-20 inside an 18" kick, and it stopped basketballing after I put in the towel and the weight. Cable (with angled XLR) goes out the vent and is cable tied to a drum leg. I do recommend remembering to take out the weight before packing up the kit, though. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 8, 2023 17:10:40 GMT -6
[…] the inside mic (Beta 52a), mounted on a Shu, imparts an unpleasant tone similar to striking a basketball. […] Basketball tone is due to some kind of standing wave inside the shell, I believe. Also....BETA MF$^$*%&*$ING 52! hahahahahaha. Maybe that's cool for some live sound.....I don't get it. |
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2023 18:56:13 GMT -6
Some of my favorite old records had the best kick tone. I tried so many things to get there, finally -duh- mic it exactly the same as a tom. Add the outer kick reverse polarity, same a tom with top/bottom mics Ever since then no more inside kick mic The amount of space occupied by the kick drum has certainly undergone some radical changes over the years... Put on an old Sam & Dave record... Stax or whatever. The bass drum is all midrange. Lotta 500Hz. Not much 50Hz. Today, in the parlance of our times war has been declared on 500Hz and the bass drum. Gotta nuke it all. And then smash on 50Hz & 5kHz. One mic a foot away from the drum? Captured semi-flat-ish? Or maybe 3 mics all chewed up & carved into sculpture? Saul valid. Depends on what 'yer going for. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 8, 2023 19:39:15 GMT -6
Pair of 666's on kick and bass amp is instant 1970....
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2023 20:02:08 GMT -6
Yeah... or even a good old SM57. Instant filter.
Other angle here is the drum itself & all sorts of things have been mentioned... and those drums & drum design has also changed radically over the last couple decades. They're not all the same.
Take an old 14x20 Ludwig w/ reinforcement rings, single ply heads and felt beater? Well that's a totally different trip then a modern oversized 18x24 DW w/ a two layer powerstroke head & plastic impact patches.
I love both those setups, its just a matter of context & picking the right sound for the music at hand.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 23:37:32 GMT -6
500-600 hz is garbage on a lot of modern drums and mics EmRR the beta 52 is a finicky, woody mic that requires eq and tends to sound like punching someone in the face after you eq down the annoying resonances and high pass filter out the junk. Which can be cool for the right type of band. The d6 is its even worse clicky kick Fischer price cousin and is only cool for a metal band who wants to sound like a Happy Meal toy. The d112 is bad too. PR40, M88, old RE20 are much better at capturing the drum. |
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Post by allbuttonmode on Feb 9, 2023 3:06:09 GMT -6
This is the setup I use. This particular one has the old mini-XLR, though, so the hole is not as big.
I forgot to mention I also install an Evans EQ-pad in them.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 9, 2023 9:29:28 GMT -6
Pair of 666's on kick and bass amp is instant 1970.... None more metal than the 666’s |
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 9, 2023 12:37:41 GMT -6
Love me some no-hole reso-headed kicks. When captured well, it easily makes for the best kick sounds. Problem is...it's damned hard to do well! Especially amongst a full kit. For styles that need a pronounced 'click', a hard beater and a mic on the batter head can do the trick. Though tbh, in most cases, I end up just sampling the drum and then triggering those samples, because the snare buzz in the kick mic is ruinous. But for sounds where a big 'click' isn't needed (which is most genres where you'd find a drummer playing without a hole), I don't really struggle much to get a nice defined attack. An outside kick mic with a nice big EQ boost and some punchy compression that emphasizes the transient is usually plenty. If/when that generates too much cymbal bleed, I just build a little gobo and blanket fortress around the kick mic. The trick is to *track* the source with the compression and eq IN PLACE, so you can hear what the result will be. Otherwise, if you simply add it in post you risk bringing up some unexpected bleed.
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Post by jampa on Feb 9, 2023 23:06:56 GMT -6
I think it's been said. If the non-ported sound is that person's thing, don't fuck with it. It feels different to play and has a tone. It will sound like a non-ported drum. But all should be under no illusion that it will sound like a ported drum
If you want a ported drum sound, use a ported drum. Keep it simple
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Post by honkeur on Feb 10, 2023 9:55:35 GMT -6
I've recorded a lot of non-ported kicks in a jazz context. I like to use two mics, one on each side. Usually a Beyer M88 on the front head, maybe 6 inches back, sometimes farther. And on the beater side, an unconventional choice: a Beyer M101 (omni version of M201) right up on the beater. Because it's omni, there is no woofy proximity, just pure impact. And the bonus: the omni doubles as a "wurst" mic. It gets some nice body from the shells of the other drums.
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Post by smashlord on Feb 10, 2023 22:34:06 GMT -6
If click and snap is what you and/or the artist wants, it seems the easiest thing is to use a ported head or a sample of a kick that sounds like that. Otherwise, its kinda like trying to make flat wounds sound like rounds in post... easiest just to use the thing that gives you the sound you want in the first place.
That said, if its a rock ballad or jazz tune where the aesthetic IS the non ported head, I find the Heil PR40 is a great mic for that application. Point it at the front head at a 45 degree angle facing downwards. To my ears, its sort of like a D12 with the EQ you would do to a D12 after the fact. Its not going to be snappy like a Beta 91 or D6 inside the shell, but I can usually get enough attack out of it.
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Ox Han
Junior Member
Posts: 93
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Post by Ox Han on Feb 18, 2023 22:12:30 GMT -6
1. Don’t mic the center of the reso. Put the mic where the port hole would be. Distance to taste
2. There needs to be some dampening agent in the kick. I like a hand towel lied flat and resting folded up on each head equally.
3. Loosen the front head so it gets the lowest fundamental tone without wrinkles
4. If you still need more attack, mic the batter side or use a crotch mic. Crotch mics can get a lot of kick attack if the right mic is used and placed just over the hoop if the kick.
Or, use both of these mics in addition to the front of kick mic
5. If these options don’t work, use a ported reso
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Post by stratboy on Feb 19, 2023 9:52:04 GMT -6
Some of my favorite old records had the best kick tone. I tried so many things to get there, finally -duh- mic it exactly the same as a tom. Add the outer kick reverse polarity, same a tom with top/bottom mics Ever since then no more inside kick mic The amount of space occupied by the kick drum has certainly undergone some radical changes over the years... Put on an old Sam & Dave record... Stax or whatever. The bass drum is all midrange. Lotta 500Hz. Not much 50Hz. Today, in the parlance of our times war has been declared on 500Hz and the bass drum. Gotta nuke it all. And then smash on 50Hz & 5kHz. One mic a foot away from the drum? Captured semi-flat-ish? Or maybe 3 mics all chewed up & carved into sculpture? Saul valid. Depends on what 'yer going for. I’m not sure we ever heard a true kick sound on 60’s records because engineers back then were tracking with vinyl mastering in mind. |
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