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Post by phdamage on Feb 7, 2023 11:23:20 GMT -6
these have always confounded me for music where I actually need/want that snap/click. If I want thumpy, I'm fine, but getting that snap I have found nearly impossible. I have seen Albini get it to work, but I have always had to rely on samples. I have hoped to drop an SM98 into a vent hole at times, but it's always too big. Are there mics that are tiny enough to fit?
I've tried micing where the beater strikes the head, but it always sounds awful to me and I can't even get it to blend right. I've tried dynamics, and SDCs.
Anyone have any secrets for this?
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Post by sean on Feb 7, 2023 11:33:05 GMT -6
Albini dangles a little electret mic like a Crown GLM100 or Countryman IsoMax near where the beater strikes the head
You could use something like a SM91 which uses a mini XLR that would (probably) fit through a vent. I’ve been thinking of getting Kelly Shu mount and a SM91 having it live inside a 26x14 drum I have so I could put a sealed head on it but still have the inside the drum sound when needed
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Post by EmRR on Feb 7, 2023 11:47:48 GMT -6
DPA 4060 might fit a vent hole, they have a smaller one also. I always mic beater side with an omni for full kit 1 mic blend in those cases and usually get what I need.
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Post by sirthought on Feb 7, 2023 12:01:19 GMT -6
I've had good luck with using samples or doubling the track and doing extreme EQ. Never seemed to be an issue in the final mix, so why sweat over it. The main kit I use has no port hole. There are lots of instances where mic'ing for the right sound is the better option. This is one case where that little click feel can come from several options.
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Post by theshea on Feb 7, 2023 12:14:26 GMT -6
a non ported kick drum is the last drum i worry about. i tune it, stick one mic in front of it and press record. come mixing time i simply add a sample if i need „something else“. no one will notice.
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2023 12:21:08 GMT -6
I always swap a solid front head out for a ported one if one comes into the studio. The 20 minutes it takes is well worth the aggravation later.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Feb 7, 2023 12:46:21 GMT -6
If you're really daring and want to throw all caution to the wind, cut a port hole in the shell, right on the side. Kumu drums do this, and I've seen some of my local guys do it too. It is surprisingly effective and completely irreversible haha. You keep a lot of the front head feel and tone, but get that port for internal mics. Also, if you're playing acoustically, have your bass player stand on the side with the shell port, and just wait for the smile (assuming you kick foot is solid!)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 12:56:05 GMT -6
Embrace the thump. Mix the beater if you want.
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Post by phdamage on Feb 7, 2023 12:57:53 GMT -6
I always swap a solid front head out for a ported one if one comes into the studio. The 20 minutes it takes is well worth the aggravation later. This is my usual move, but some drummers are not open to that. I've tried the dangling the SM98 over where the beater strikes the head. it always sounds awful to me. I haven't tried an omni, but worth a shot. Granted, it doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, I'm often stuck and just assume I'll drop a sample in. Basically, since I know it can be done effectively, I'm kinda determined to figure it out.
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2023 13:01:41 GMT -6
I always swap a solid front head out for a ported one if one comes into the studio. The 20 minutes it takes is well worth the aggravation later. This is my usual move, but some drummers are not open to that. I've tried the dangling the SM98 over where the beater strikes the head. it always sounds awful to me. I haven't tried an omni, but worth a shot. Granted, it doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, I'm often stuck and just assume I'll drop a sample in. Basically, since I know it can be done effectively, I'm kinda determined to figure it out. Never had good experience trying to mic a beater either. I guess without an internal mic the only real solution is a sample for smack.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 13:08:50 GMT -6
Nuke it.
Don’t be afraid of eq ever. I do metal. I have zero fear of -20 db eq cuts, big boosts, crazy shelves, resonant filters, etc
Totally reshape the dynamics of the drum with a Distressor or Molot. This is what they were made for.
Mult the drum, process it with filters, expanders, crazy ass compressors like Presswerk, Faraday, or a BSS, to get some kind of strike or click you can blend in with the thump. Even auto align it afterwards if you must.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 7, 2023 13:19:41 GMT -6
Have you tried using a hard plastic beater for the kick pedal? Might help you get the attack you want.
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2023 13:28:17 GMT -6
Nuke it. Don’t be afraid of eq ever. I do metal. I have zero fear of -20 db eq cuts, big boosts, crazy shelves, resonant filters, etc Totally reshape the dynamics of the drum with a Distressor or Molot. This is what they were made for. Mult the drum, process it with filters, expanders, crazy ass compressors like Presswerk, Faraday, or a BSS, to get some kind of strike or click you can blend in with the thump. Even auto align it afterwards if you must. One thing you can't do with all that is get rid of the crazy bleed from a front-kick mic, especially when you're going to add a lot of top end for clack and compression to keep it even sounding.. Pretty much anything you do on a front-kick mic track only makes the bleed worse. Inside the drum gives you at least some isolation and a lot more clack-to-boom ratio.
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Post by jaba on Feb 7, 2023 13:29:48 GMT -6
I find this often works but it's going to add more to your drum sound that just kick beater: mic over the kick drum, just peaking over the beater side. How far over, if at all, is down to taste. Normally little to no compression, at least in tracking.
My favorite mic for this is a U87 in omni (best to trust the drummer in this case....). This placement though does pick up snare rattle and overall kit noise (in the best of ways, but may not be what you're looking for). EV 635a is also a cool option and I normally use that one if I'm planning on compressing it a lot.
Changing the beater head can help too but sometimes a drummer may like this less than swapping their drum head as it can change the pedal feel.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Feb 7, 2023 14:01:55 GMT -6
I have full front heads on all my kick drums. I’ve installed 91s in Kelly Shu holders in all of them. I burn a hole near the edge in the front head, large enough to get an XLR plug through. (Doesn’t make a noticeable difference, sound wise). I pair that with an LDC on the outside.
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Post by sirthought on Feb 7, 2023 14:14:21 GMT -6
I have full front heads on all my kick drums. I’ve installed 91s in Kelly Shu holders in all of them. I burn a hole near the edge in the front head, large enough to get an XLR plug through. (Doesn’t make a noticeable difference, sound wise). I pair that with an LDC on the outside. You burn it? With a hot poker? A torch? How far from the edge?
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Post by mcirish on Feb 7, 2023 16:13:03 GMT -6
I feel like most genres need something that a non-ported kick drum can give. I try to always use a ported kick and mic the port with a 52A and the front head with something like a Fet47. With that combination, I can get any sound that is needed. I know Bonham didn't port his kick, but that sound doesn't work with today's mixes.
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Post by lpedrum on Feb 7, 2023 16:24:27 GMT -6
Some of the comments here about changing a drummer's actual instrument and sound push my buttons--but I'll bite my tongue! This question depends so much on the type of sound and music that's being made. I'm not dogmatic about my own drumming approach, but I do love the sound of a drum with the front head intact. It can take more time to dial up the sound, but the character that results is worth it. One way to think about attack is not just about the actual beater on the head sound, but rather the attack one gets from the whole instrument being played, and how using room mics can focus that sound. For instance, using a front-of-kit mic can really bring out the beauty of the drum, including its natural attack. For extra credit I sometimes record a bass drum sample using a front-of-kit mic for later use as a bass drum sample in the tune. (I sometimes do that with snare too.) It's a sample yes, but it sounds really natural this way being the same drum in the same room.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 7, 2023 16:36:18 GMT -6
I ported my ekick. 😂😂
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Post by jmoose on Feb 7, 2023 16:38:25 GMT -6
I have full front heads on all my kick drums. I’ve installed 91s in Kelly Shu holders in all of them. I burn a hole near the edge in the front head, large enough to get an XLR plug through. (Doesn’t make a noticeable difference, sound wise). I pair that with an LDC on the outside. You burn it? With a hot poker? A torch? How far from the edge? An old trick to cutting holes is to heat up a can on the stove... like an empty soup can. Get it real, real hot... then shove it into & through the bass drum head. Wear oven mitts! Work fast. It'll leave a clean hole. Don't burn yourself. Swapping beaters around, like felt to plastic and adding a remo falam slam patch never hurts & just might be enough. I have been known to cut an XLR connector off, drop it through the vent... remove the head... solder connector back on... mic... replace head... cut tracks... then reverse the process. Time consuming but if that's the only option? The Albini thing of dangling a mic on the beater side? Kinda works. Kinda doesn't. He's got an elaborate gate setup that I believe is keyed off the snare? Its like it works as long as the kick & snare aren't being hit at the same time. Sort of. Even in best of cases that mic is still "snare bottom" There's some utoob vids where he talks about that rig. Ultimately its just so easy to layer a sample If I need more smack that its often the best route/path of least resistance. Why fight it? Often though I find half the battle is simply articulation. Sealed kick can sound "big enough" that I'll end up carving lows & low mids to save space which helps the overall speaking voice of the drum.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Feb 7, 2023 16:51:28 GMT -6
You burn it? With a hot poker? A torch? How far from the edge? I’ve an old soldering iron I use. I usually make the hole about 2 cm. from the edge. I’ll take a picture of it tomorrow.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Feb 7, 2023 16:54:18 GMT -6
that sound doesn't work with today's mixes. I strongly disagree with that statement. A full front head does not automatically mean sustain for days. Also, it completely depends on the mix.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 17:31:25 GMT -6
Nuke it. Don’t be afraid of eq ever. I do metal. I have zero fear of -20 db eq cuts, big boosts, crazy shelves, resonant filters, etc Totally reshape the dynamics of the drum with a Distressor or Molot. This is what they were made for. Mult the drum, process it with filters, expanders, crazy ass compressors like Presswerk, Faraday, or a BSS, to get some kind of strike or click you can blend in with the thump. Even auto align it afterwards if you must. One thing you can't do with all that is get rid of the crazy bleed from a front-kick mic, especially when you're going to add a lot of top end for clack and compression to keep it even sounding.. Pretty much anything you do on a front-kick mic track only makes the bleed worse. Inside the drum gives you at least some isolation and a lot more clack-to-boom ratio. Yes that’s why you need need to mult it, gate it, filter it, process it to hell, and blend it in with the real kick.
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2023 17:39:46 GMT -6
One thing you can't do with all that is get rid of the crazy bleed from a front-kick mic, especially when you're going to add a lot of top end for clack and compression to keep it even sounding.. Pretty much anything you do on a front-kick mic track only makes the bleed worse. Inside the drum gives you at least some isolation and a lot more clack-to-boom ratio. Yes that’s why you need need to mult it, gate it, filter it, process it to hell, and blend it in with the real kick. At that point I'd rather just copy the track, slice it up and replace the hits with samples. That way I'm not using any plugins to do so much work. That's also why I try to take good samples of the setup, each drum at a time, so it doesn't sound any different than what we hear in the room. I can also easily replace the samples later if it's not working out.
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Post by matt on Feb 7, 2023 17:51:43 GMT -6
Interesting thread. I've recorded with a no-hole kick (26x14, Ludwig green sparkle naturally) for about a year and have found that the inside mic (Beta 52a), mounted on a Shu, imparts an unpleasant tone similar to striking a basketball. The tone was even worse with a 91a in there. Fixing it with radical EQ is unsatisfactory- I'd rather get a good tone straight away. Plus it is a pain to adjust since you have to remove the reso head to get at the thing to move it around and the Shu is not easily adjustable- it is designed to sit in the center of the drum. I've added a dick mic (AT 4050) and it helps but still . . .
I wonder if the closed drum is part of the problem. So I'm trying a Powerstroke 3 reso head with a 5" hole. Mics will be: inside (offset about 50% toward the shell using a bar on the Shu)- Beta 52a, hole- D112 Mk2, front/outside- UT47, dick- 4050. This setup should get it done. In the end, I can always revert back if I am unhappy with the result, which is unlikely. Not a fan of using samples either, and I'd like to stop doing it. It's one thing to enhance, but it's another to have to cover up a poor recording. Which I've had to do lately.
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