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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2023 21:19:06 GMT -6
So - just thinking…is -25 db with no pad the same as -45 db with a -20db pad engaged? I know some pads add some impedance differences I think…
Just thinking as I watch some tv. I always gain stage say - a vocal - by getting to about -6 at my loudest…then I start adding the compressor input in until I’m getting the gain reduction I want. Then output to taste. Makes me wonder about cranking the pre a little hotter than I normally would and let the compressor get hit harder on the front end. Is there a different between hitting the comp harder and the input being lower and hitting it softer and having a higher setting on the comp?
Are the tubes being pushed the same regardless? Same tonality? I realize cranking the input on the pre is going to make the pre a little dirtier. Anyway - just wondering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2023 22:41:44 GMT -6
Idk. The pads often sound like crap from the different impedance. A lot of pres go from clean to overdrive when cranked too.
Everything you hit hotter is going to be more disorted ime. Even sterile RME and Apogee pres. Compressor input stages too. You have to reduce noise and minimize distortion or get it where you want it. Even makeup gain on non vca comps can be problematic.
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Post by Ward on Jan 26, 2023 6:35:04 GMT -6
What is your desired result?
Pads are hot or miss. The pad on a U87 sucks the life out of it but on a U87ai or a U89, not so much. Why? That’s a weird one.
Ona U47fet, either pad seem to slice off that glorious “conk” part of the tone of it.
Input pads on preamps? Same thing. That bit of crunch or buzz is why we use tube preamps. The musical even order harmonic distortion. I use output line attenuators (the old audio texhica ones suit me) all the time. I try to always gain stage so outputs are -20 to -12 on average. Since -18 is digital zero.
YMMV
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 26, 2023 6:43:21 GMT -6
What is your desired result? Pads are hot or miss. The pad on a U87 sucks the life out of it but on a U87ai or a U89, not so much. Why? That’s a weird one. Ona U47fet, either pad seem to slice off that glorious “conk” part of the tone of it. Input pads on preamps? Same thing. That bit of crunch or buzz is why we use tube preamps. The musical even order harmonic distortion. I use output line attenuators (the old audio texhica ones suit me) all the time. I try to always gain stage so outputs are -20 to -12 on average. Since -18 is digital zero. YMMV Yeah I’ve used those line input pads. One thing I’ve noticed on the V-comp is it seems to have less gain on the input than a sta-level. Not that that is bad, I just find myself having to crank the input knob for the same amount of gain reduction. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 26, 2023 6:52:40 GMT -6
SNIP One thing I’ve noticed on the V-comp is it seems to have less gain on the input than a sta-level. Not that that is bad, I just find myself having to crank the input knob for the same amount of gain reduction. TRUE!! I have to crank mine too or up the output of the preamp. Hence the development of the V Comp plus with the ‘goose’ switch you can flick on - as desired. Remember that Christmas album I shared in “what are you working on”? Every single vocal went through a V Comp - cranked- and that syruppy sound really suited Christmas music. I’m not suggesting anyone go and re-live Christmas. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 26, 2023 6:54:47 GMT -6
Just reading the v-comp page and maybe this was intentional…
“We started by making the Input and Output controls more usable; across their ENTIRE RANGE. This subtle, but common-sense modification allows the operator to get the full effect of saturating the input and output transformers and pushing the tube gain stages, while still allowing for AMPLE headroom heading into your convertor, console or tape machine.”
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Post by EmRR on Jan 26, 2023 8:52:44 GMT -6
My eyes always glaze over about the pad discussion. I have so many fixed gain tube pre's, you either need them or you don't. There's no picking the approach. Similar really applies to many things with gain controls. I can't say I've ever gotten granular about comparing with and without a pad in any case that made me feel like one sucked and the other didn't, if I'm close to that territory I'm probably moving to what I think is a more appropriate pre for the input headroom problem at hand. Universally speaking, anything pre-1970 pretty much needs an input pad with anything loud and close mic'd. Even ribbons. Even if there's a gain control, the input stage is usually blowing up without a pad. Sometimes changing the mic is the answer if none of the pre's like it. Get a different crayon, whichever thing!
A lot of the mods I do to my own old fixed gain pre's are to get variable gain, in some types you can get more input stage headroom with that approach at the expense of the basic distortion characteristic, and at the same time get more gain with smoother distortion for times you still need a pad.
A lot of pre-1960 types won't put out modern max levels, period, so you have to think in terms of that. Many 'classics' are into serious distortion at +10 (-12-8 dBFS) even when gain staging is ideal.
Now, mic pads are different, they are frequently capacitors at the capsule to make the capsule less sensitive, that definitely changes the sound, usually not for the better. Some mics do pad after a first gain stage or buffer, and those are usually fine.
Preamp input pads are usually a far safer bet than the pad on a mic.
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Post by Ward on Jan 26, 2023 9:45:47 GMT -6
My eyes always glaze over about the pad discussion. SNIP Now, mic pads are different, they are frequently capacitors at the capsule to make the capsule less sensitive, that definitely changes the sound, usually not for the better. Some mics do pad after a first gain stage or buffer, and those are usually fine. Preamp input pads are usually a far safer bet than the pad on a mic. Interesting and informative. Thanks! |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 26, 2023 12:20:12 GMT -6
My eyes always glaze over about the pad discussion. I have so many fixed gain tube pre's, you either need them or you don't. There's no picking the approach. Similar really applies to many things with gain controls. I can't say I've ever gotten granular about comparing with and without a pad in any case that made me feel like one sucked and the other didn't, if I'm close to that territory I'm probably moving to what I think is a more appropriate pre for the input headroom problem at hand. Universally speaking, anything pre-1970 pretty much needs an input pad with anything loud and close mic'd. Even ribbons. Even if there's a gain control, the input stage is usually blowing up without a pad. Sometimes changing the mic is the answer if none of the pre's like it. Get a different crayon, whichever thing! A lot of the mods I do to my own old fixed gain pre's are to get variable gain, in some types you can get more input stage headroom with that approach at the expense of the basic distortion characteristic, and at the same time get more gain with smoother distortion for times you still need a pad. A lot of pre-1960 types won't put out modern max levels, period, so you have to think in terms of that. Many 'classics' are into serious distortion at +10 (-12-8 dBFS) even when gain staging is ideal. Now, mic pads are different, they are frequently capacitors at the capsule to make the capsule less sensitive, that definitely changes the sound, usually not for the better. Some mics do pad after a first gain stage or buffer, and those are usually fine. Preamp input pads are usually a far safer bet than the pad on a mic. Hey Doug, it also feels like on a lot of modern stuff the pad is an afterthought and just added to win that all important features comparison battle. In general the parts seam to be as cheap as we can get, in corporate speak , “we need to maximize value.” |
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