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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 3:02:42 GMT -6
I'm watching Puremix with MHB revealing his method and it's very PT oriented. My first issue is I don't understand the purpose of the "dummy outputs" Is that a throw back to making PT correctly calculate it's ADC? I was planning on this .... will it work? Cubase channels outputs routed to (as needed) to one of the ABCD buses, which in turn feed my stereo master bus. So as I push up a fader it's signal is going (by category) to one of the ABCD buses. Then to get signal to more than one ABCD bus at a time I use a channels post fader "send" to send to the additional ABCD bus as needed. Then for FX, I continue as normal to use channel post fader "sends" to send to my FX channels and the FX are retuned via an ABCD or straight to my stereo bus (if I wish) I get the multed vocal compressors part. Will this work? Perhaps the routing is too complex for Cubae and it's ADC will fall over and I will get phasing issues! MHB always said it can't be done in a DAW - now he does it in a DAW. Did PT ADC suddenly improve greatly or maybe his assistant has to manually delay compensate elements in a mix? Is Cubase ADC good enough? "Will Jessica discover Chester's affair?"  Anyone help will be hugely appreciated. |
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Post by mcirish on Jan 16, 2023 7:20:41 GMT -6
I'm not any help. I use Nuendo and I like it quite a bit and don't find it limiting in any way. MB and AS have their own convoluted way to mix. I am glad it works for them but I never got good results doing things either of those ways. Maybe they would look at my routing and think it odd too.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 8:04:24 GMT -6
I'm not any help. I use Nuendo and I like it quite a bit and don't find it limiting in any way. MB and AS have their own convoluted way to mix. I am glad it works for them but I never got good results doing things either of those ways. Maybe they would look at my routing and think it odd too. Mmmmh yes. I mean I've mixed the same way for decades! Channel compression and EQ into stereo mix bus compression and EQ. That method worked for top mixers and engineers on Ten Somner's Tales, The Night Fly, We Can't Dance, So and other favourite albums. It's just Brauerizing caught my eye and I thought am I missing on on something here - but heck it's sure complex routing! |
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Post by Ward on Jan 16, 2023 8:52:31 GMT -6
Other people's methods tend not to work for everyone. We can learn from other people's mixes but don't have to copy what they do. Their workflow is for their own purposes and may not necessarily work for some of us.
Ergonomics is a very individual thing. I have (many of us have) friends who use the DAW merely as a tape deck and do everything on a desk (LFAC or even MFAC) with analog gear in all the inserts.
Find your own best way of doing things.
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Post by jaba on Jan 16, 2023 9:24:25 GMT -6
While I agree you should develop your own methods instead of just coping someone else's, doing so can be a great way to learn.
I think it's pointless to assume you'll get similar results by using someone else's template but you'll likely find something in their methods that works for you. I assume most mixers are using techniques they learned from a mentor or some online tip.
To do the Brauer thing in Cubase: in the Racks, turn on Direct Routing. Then right click on it in the Rack itself and turn on Summing Mode.
This will allow you to assign a channel's output to any groups or stereo out simultaneously. Should work like the SSL method he used (ie, it's not a send, no individual gains).
I've played with it briefly and it wasn't really for me but the phasing seemed fine. If there's any phase issues it's likely coming from the plugins on the groups, though I don't recall any big issues there either.
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Post by svart on Jan 16, 2023 9:39:41 GMT -6
In my opinion, it's a needlessly complex way to add nonlinear distortion to everything in the mix. With all the plugs available to us these days, just slap a few different tape sims or clippers on each bus and just barely turn them up.
Or parallel your busses with heavy compression and some tape sim and mix in until everything sounds even.
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Post by seawell on Jan 16, 2023 10:34:57 GMT -6
I have not heard Brauerizing work convincingly outside of a SSL 9000 J.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Jan 16, 2023 10:40:41 GMT -6
Seems like it would be easy enough to just try? Maybe print sine waves through the each of the ABCD busses with plugs and the master bus to confirm if delay compensation is working correctly?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 16, 2023 11:10:51 GMT -6
Just create ABCD group busses. Open hardware inserts on each bus and assign your instruments to whichever hardware group you want. Then you have a simplified but very effective Brauerizing method.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2023 14:35:55 GMT -6
Did PT ADC suddenly improve greatly or maybe his assistant has to manually delay compensate elements in a mix? Is Cubase ADC good enough? Yes, it has improved. In Pro Tools (studio) 10 all the way up to some versions in 2018 I could send a dry signal to an aux (no plugs, nothing) and it would be out of time, side chain compensation was HDX only and I spent a lot of time nudging samples manually or creating "dummy analog outs" as you stated. The theory behind it is ADC calculates the shortest path to an analog output, if for example you have a compressor on an analog channel and an aux to the master out you'd have two output paths therefore ADC would compensate differently.
If you sent everything to a single none monitored analog out however it would calculate fine, you'd use a seperate out for monitoring but that's its only function, monitoring. If you only have one set of outputs you'd create an aux to the master out and then mute it essentially. Logic also has its own funky set of issues with ADC until very recently, I'm not sure that's been entirely fixed yet either?
In Samplitude or HDX not a problem and from what I've heard about Cubase this isn't an issue either so why you'd do it in these DAW's? Not a clue.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 15:18:55 GMT -6
Find your own best way of doing things. That’s what I’m doing - it’s a process of assimilation  |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 15:21:13 GMT -6
I have not heard Brauerizing work convincingly outside of a SSL 9000 J. Josh, don’t tell MHB that, he’s sold all his hardware and gone a Brauerizing ITB !! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 15:25:30 GMT -6
In my opinion, it's a needlessly complex way to add nonlinear distortion to everything in the mix. With all the plugs available to us these days, just slap a few different tape sims or clippers on each bus and just barely turn them up. Or parallel your busses with heavy compression and some tape sim and mix in until everything sounds even. Listening him talk about his approach I got the very strong impression it’s about mix bandwidth and headroom - a sort of sideways on multi-band compression. At least as I test the method out that will be my sonic goal and reasoning behind my own personal interest in his approach. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 15:27:18 GMT -6
While I agree you should develop your own methods instead of just coping someone else's, doing so can be a great way to learn. I think it's pointless to assume you'll get similar results by using someone else's template but you'll likely find something in their methods that works for you. I assume most mixers are using techniques they learned from a mentor or some online tip. To do the Brauer thing in Cubase: in the Racks, turn on Direct Routing. Then right click on it in the Rack itself and turn on Summing Mode. This will allow you to assign a channel's output to any groups or stereo out simultaneously. Should work like the SSL method he used (ie, it's not a send, no individual gains). I've played with it briefly and it wasn't really for me but the phasing seemed fine. If there's any phase issues it's likely coming from the plugins on the groups, though I don't recall any big issues there either. Thanks that’s very helpful helpful, I wasn’t aware of those features in Cubase. |
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Post by svart on Jan 16, 2023 15:34:18 GMT -6
In my opinion, it's a needlessly complex way to add nonlinear distortion to everything in the mix. With all the plugs available to us these days, just slap a few different tape sims or clippers on each bus and just barely turn them up. Or parallel your busses with heavy compression and some tape sim and mix in until everything sounds even. Listening him talk about his approach I got the very strong impression it’s about mix bandwidth and headroom - a sort of sideways on multi-band compression. At least as I test the method out that will be my sonic goal and reasoning behind my own personal interest in his approach. I think back in the day when you had a console with a fixed number of sends/busses/etc., this was a way to send out to various gear and get a thick amount of low-level distortion while also distributing the audio in such a way that dynamics don't affect any single effects unit too greatly. These days you have adjustable mix settings in just about every plugin and unlimited bussing, so it's easy to just send everything to parallel busses filled with effects partially mixed in. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 16, 2023 15:35:45 GMT -6
I have not heard Brauerizing work convincingly outside of a SSL 9000 J. Josh, don’t tell MHB that, he’s sold all his hardware and gone a Brauerizing ITB !! I don't want to discourage you because I think there are some elements that you can pull from it that you'll probably keep. I spent a good 3 years going deep down this rabbit hole and once he went hybrid and then eventually all ITB is what convinced me it was a fruitless pursuit. If he couldn't pull it off ITB then how in the world was I? I hate to say it and he has been a huge influence/inspiration to me but his console work vs now is like night and day to me. His console mixes were an enigma to me, they challenged and inspired me with sounds/tones I wasn't even sure were possible, much less how to achieve them. The ITB work does not do that(for me)unfortunately. Having said all that, from a financial stand point I can't fault any mixer that decides to go all ITB! Also keep in mind that when he was still on a console there were guys with SSL 4000's that were having to do a modified version because it didn't have the multi busses that the 9000 J does. His techinque was/is brilliant but I just think it was tailor made for the 9000. |
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Post by copperx on Jan 16, 2023 16:53:30 GMT -6
Josh, don’t tell MHB that, he’s sold all his hardware and gone a Brauerizing ITB !! his console work vs now is like night and day to me. I am of the same opinion. I watched the paid video that OP referenced a while ago because I was really curious to see if Brauer was able to pull it off, but after hearing his results, I noticed just a small low end cohesion at the cost of an aliasing/distortion nightmare. With all due respect to Mr. Brauer, I think he's choosing to ignore this sonic compromise because of the realities of today's mixing requirements. Ironically, it was this same video that convinced me to buy more outboard. As the late Tim Gilles (Slipperman) used to say, it's not the indian nor the arrow, it's both! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 16, 2023 17:58:49 GMT -6
Josh, don’t tell MHB that, he’s sold all his hardware and gone a Brauerizing ITB !! I don't want to discourage you because I think there are some elements that you can pull from it that you'll probably keep. I spent a good 3 years going deep down this rabbit hole and once he went hybrid and then eventually all ITB is what convinced me it was a fruitless pursuit. If he couldn't pull it off ITB then how in the world was I? I hate to say it and he has been a huge influence/inspiration to me but his console work vs now is like night and day to me. His console mixes were an enigma to me, they challenged and inspired me with sounds/tones I wasn't even sure were possible, much less how to achieve them. The ITB work does not do that(for me)unfortunately. Having said all that, from a financial stand point I can't fault any mixer that decides to go all ITB! Also keep in mind that when he was still on a console there were guys with SSL 4000's that were having to do a modified version because it didn't have the multi busses that the 9000 J does. His techinque was/is brilliant but I just think it was tailor made for the 9000. Yes I agree with many points in your post. When I watched the video MHB and his assistant would pull up for example the UAD Neve 33609 stereo bus comp and say these settings make it sound identical to the hardware. Now I’m no genius but my hearing tells me the plugin definitely does not have the mojo of the hardware. I’ve never heard a stereo compressor plugin that didn’t sound flat and 2D compared to its hardware equivalent. After decades of working with high end hardware I know MHB can hear that too! The sonic compromises he’s making for whatever commercial reasons he has (100% valid I’m sure) aren’t compromises I need to make. I watched the video series and then reminded myself of that fact. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 16, 2023 18:26:53 GMT -6
I don't want to discourage you because I think there are some elements that you can pull from it that you'll probably keep. I spent a good 3 years going deep down this rabbit hole and once he went hybrid and then eventually all ITB is what convinced me it was a fruitless pursuit. If he couldn't pull it off ITB then how in the world was I? I hate to say it and he has been a huge influence/inspiration to me but his console work vs now is like night and day to me. His console mixes were an enigma to me, they challenged and inspired me with sounds/tones I wasn't even sure were possible, much less how to achieve them. The ITB work does not do that(for me)unfortunately. Having said all that, from a financial stand point I can't fault any mixer that decides to go all ITB! Also keep in mind that when he was still on a console there were guys with SSL 4000's that were having to do a modified version because it didn't have the multi busses that the 9000 J does. His techinque was/is brilliant but I just think it was tailor made for the 9000. Yes I agree with many points in your post. When I watched the video MHB and his assistant would pull up for example the UAD Neve 33609 stereo bus comp and say these settings make it sound identical to the hardware. Now I’m no genius but my hearing tells me the plugin definitely does not have the mojo of the hardware. I’ve never heard a stereo compressor plugin that didn’t sound flat and 2D compared to its hardware equivalent. After decades of working with high end hardware I know MHB can hear that too! The sonic compromises he’s making for whatever commercial reasons he has (100% valid I’m sure) aren’t compromises I need to make. I watched the video series and then reminded myself of that fact. Finances, or lack thereof, are a very strong motivator and can alter your hearing 🙉 Again, I don't fault anyone for going all ITB(I've done it myself at different times in my career). What does irk me a bit though is acting like it sounds identical to hardware. That is demonstrably false and *shameless plug* I've done multiple hardware vs plugin shootouts on my channel that prove that. If a plug-in manufacturer could make a plugin that nulls with hardware why are there exactly zero demonstrations showing that? If they could, they'd do it and they'd sell like hotcakes! I wish just one of these top mixers that go all ITB would be honest and just admit how business isn't what it used to and it doesn't sound the same but they are going to make the most of what they can afford now. Another interesting observation is 2 other mixers that I've been inspired by(Jacquire King and Tchad Blake) were at one point all ITB but have gradually added hardware back in to a hybrid set up over the last couple of years. I wouldn't be surprised to see Brauer end up doing the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2023 22:15:48 GMT -6
If a plug-in manufacturer could make a plugin that nulls with hardware why are there exactly zero demonstrations showing that? If they could, they'd do it and they'd sell like hotcakes! Well that would be way too logical wouldn't it? You can get two pieces of well calibrated (and serviced) hardware (compressors, pre-amps, EQ's etc.) to near enough null (stepped pots do help) despite the grandiose claims of infinite variability. So technically speaking there's no real reason why the SW wouldn't either..
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Post by copperx on Jan 17, 2023 0:48:18 GMT -6
If a plug-in manufacturer could make a plugin that nulls with hardware why are there exactly zero demonstrations showing that? If they could, they'd do it and they'd sell like hotcakes! Well that would be way too logical wouldn't it? You can get two pieces of well calibrated (and serviced) hardware (compressors, pre-amps, EQ's etc.) to near enough null (stepped pots do help) despite the grandiose claims of infinite variability. So technically speaking there's no real reason why the SW wouldn't either..
Exactly. That old excuse of "every vintage unit sounds different" is irrelevant because usually developers model a specific unit (if they're using actual measurements and not just theoretical behavior of components). |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 17, 2023 22:53:51 GMT -6
Well that would be way too logical wouldn't it? You can get two pieces of well calibrated (and serviced) hardware (compressors, pre-amps, EQ's etc.) to near enough null (stepped pots do help) despite the grandiose claims of infinite variability. So technically speaking there's no real reason why the SW wouldn't either..
Exactly. That old excuse of "every vintage unit sounds different" is irrelevant because usually developers model a specific unit (if they're using actual measurements and not just theoretical behavior of components). That's really true. The only exception to that rule was that SoundToys claimed they gathers 5-6 plates as they were developing Little Plate. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2023 2:29:43 GMT -6
Exactly. That old excuse of "every vintage unit sounds different" is irrelevant because usually developers model a specific unit (if they're using actual measurements and not just theoretical behavior of components). That's really true. The only exception to that rule was that SoundToys claimed they gathers 5-6 plates as they were developing Little Plate. I got "Little Plate" for free. It's my absolute favourite Plate reverb, over and above all the ones I've paid for. That doesn't happen often in the plugin world, a genuine bargain! |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 18, 2023 17:22:43 GMT -6
That's really true. The only exception to that rule was that SoundToys claimed they gathers 5-6 plates as they were developing Little Plate. I got "Little Plate" for free. It's my absolute favourite Plate reverb, over and above all the ones I've paid for. That doesn't happen often in the plugin world, a genuine bargain! I may have gotten it free as well. It's a good one. I often put Echo Boy Jr in front of it. |
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Post by sirthought on Jan 18, 2023 20:51:33 GMT -6
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