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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2023 16:12:26 GMT -6
Just listening through the Chris Stapleton "Starting Over" record and admiring the use of the stereo field. In the first verse of "You Should Probably Leave," almost everything it straight down the middle except for hats, OH and vocal plate/chamber - and that's subtle as hell. Electric/spring, bass (of course) are dead center mono. Freaking love the verb on the vocal. Wonder what it is? Short Bricasti plate? Or maybe a real chamber. The use of that mono panning really gives a crazy sense of space when the B3 comes in...Seems like it's to the right. Then the stereo electrics in the chorus - and the solo stereo EG's just sound wide as hell. Anyway - really makes me want to do more of that...the effects so often get lost in a big produced mix. Guess you can do more of that when there's more space in the instrumentation. Pretty sure this is Vance - and he does such a great job (maybe it's Cobb calling for it) of putting the attention on the coolest parts of the song, the vocal, the beautiful decay of a verb - keeping it interesting with panning choices. music.apple.com/us/album/you-should-probably-leave/1528423147?i=1528423169 |
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 17:57:47 GMT -6
The last Peter Wolf record is interesting too. The lead off track Rolling On is a class on arrangement. Starts off spare, then stuff keeps on coming in and out. Sometimes for just a couple bars. The guy I worked the most with back in the 90s was a throw everything at the wall kinda guy, and most of them were good ideas, but he wanted to keep everything come mix time. Made keeping some space in the mix difficult. Not that I was ever a great mixer.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 18:04:11 GMT -6
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 18:10:59 GMT -6
There was also a big hit by the Police that started off almost totally mono, then the chorus hit and bam! Stereo. Sounded huge in the contrast with the mono intro and verse. Every Breath maybe?
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 12, 2023 18:24:00 GMT -6
That link doesn't work for me. Any chance you could post it somewhere I can hear it without subscribing to a music service? I love the Starting Over video.
Is this video the same mix?
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jan 12, 2023 20:25:44 GMT -6
Coldplay's Magic does a masterful job with this.
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 20:43:37 GMT -6
Nice to see Cobb and Vance get a little camera time in the video.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2023 22:22:27 GMT -6
That link doesn't work for me. Any chance you could post it somewhere I can hear it without subscribing to a music service? I love the Starting Over video. Is this video the same mix? |
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 22:31:51 GMT -6
Cool tune. I’m away from home and listening on an iPad, so not ideal, so hearing more of the arrangement choices, when an instrument or instruments come in or out than the panning choices. But it all works together, imo.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jan 12, 2023 22:39:43 GMT -6
Cool tune. I’m away from home and listening on an iPad, so not ideal, so hearing more of the arrangement choices, when an instrument or instruments come in or out than the panning choices. But it all works together, imo. Cheers, Geoff Otherwise known as a great mix! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2023 23:10:43 GMT -6
Cool tune. I’m away from home and listening on an iPad, so not ideal, so hearing more of the arrangement choices, when an instrument or instruments come in or out than the panning choices. But it all works together, imo. Cheers, Geoff Yeah - instrumentation and arrangement is fantastic but I think of that more as production…I think of panning as more in the mixing arena…but the two overlap all the time. I guess you could say the panning is a production choice at the mixing stage. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 12, 2023 23:50:59 GMT -6
Damn. Thought I had earbuds with me, but no. So iPad speaker it is.
All the songs in this thread are pretty spare at least in parts. And yet they still sound big and deep and wide. Nothing lacking. I suck at that. I suppose that’s why these guys get the big bucks. It sounds like it’s effortless, but I know it’s decades doing this work every day. And then when the tunes above get fuller, the vocal doesn’t get buried. Again, challenging for me. Again, experience matters. It’s just a pleasure to listen to stuff performed and mixed and produced by pros
Another guy who I think does big wide deep and spacious production is Joe Henry. I’m going to have to pay some more attention to his panning choices now.
As for the instrumentation and arrangement being a production thing? I think it can be, but could be either/or production/tracking or mixing. I guess if it reaches the mixing stage, decisions have been punted down the road along the process. Which is not always ideal. But it happens. Or so I’m told.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2023 0:16:20 GMT -6
Damn. Thought I had earbuds with me, but no. So iPad speaker it is. All the songs in this thread are pretty spare at least in parts. And yet they still sound big and deep and wide. Nothing lacking. I suck at that. I suppose that’s why these guys get the big bucks. It sounds like it’s effortless, but I know it’s decades doing this work every day. And then when the tunes above get fuller, the vocal doesn’t get buried. Again, challenging for me. Again, experience matters. It’s just a pleasure to listen to stuff performed and mixed and produced by pros Another guy who I think does big wide deep and spacious production is Joe Henry. I’m going to have to pay some more attention to his panning choices now. As for the instrumentation and arrangement being a production thing? I think it can be, but could be either/or production/tracking or mixing. I guess if it reaches the mixing stage, decisions have been punted down the road along the process. Which is not always ideal. But it happens. Or so I’m told. Cheers, Geoff So, with most of the production I do, we’re limited on tracking time. The budget requires you get in and out as fast as possible. So there’s not a lot of “hey, let’s get a snare sound for two hours.” More like 10 minutes. I could type a long epistle about the advantage of budget - but it’s not just that. It’s the experience of knowing how much is enough. I started as a songwriter (and continue to be) and I know I’ve talked a ton about “economy of style”…being able to say everything in the most efficient, soul churning, smack you in the face way possible. That was the type of songwriting that always just blew me away. “I can’t make you love me if you don’t…” anyway - this mixing is analogous to that. It’s giving you everything in the most efficient, simplistic, guttural way that it can be expressed. I’m like you - I’m learning from this. Learning to edit as a producer. Not over producing. Not everything huge is great. Of course, it doesn’t hurt when someone sings like Stapleton lol. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 13, 2023 0:17:08 GMT -6
This may have sold a couple more Stapleton records. I bought Traveler after seeing him and Morgane on Letterman I think. I need to get what he’s done since.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2023 0:18:21 GMT -6
This may have sold a couple more Stapleton records. I bought Traveler after seeing him and Morgane on Letterman I think. I need to get what he’s done since. Cheers, Geoff I think Starting Over is my favorite. Listen to “Cold.” Holy Lord. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 13, 2023 0:25:05 GMT -6
Well I guess part of the tracking/production stuff comes down to: does the artist know what they want in terms of arrangement. And effectively communicate to the producer and the band. I realize we’re getting away from panning and your original post. But, they are not unconnected in the end result.
And agreed. If in doubt, get Stapleton to sing.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 13, 2023 0:41:13 GMT -6
Cold. Was fantastic. Strangely, I hear some similarities between Stapleton and Wolf. Yeah Stapleton can sing and Peter? I’ll let you decide. But Wolf did do a duet with Merle three records ago. And they’re both steeped in southern soul. I posted the track I did because I do think it’s a class on arrangement. But it’s also just a really good song.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by bentley on Jan 13, 2023 14:19:45 GMT -6
Freaking love the verb on the vocal. Wonder what it is? Short Bricasti plate? Or maybe a real chamber. From what I've seen via video, Vance's go to vocal processing is a pair of Strymon El Capistans for slap (formerly Fulltones) and a Bricasti. Depending on where it was recorded it could also easily be real room or chamber I'd imagine. Definitely some subtle slap happening at the sides. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 13, 2023 20:39:41 GMT -6
Anyone notice how similar the arrangement and production there is to Wiz's tracks? I think if you put Wiz in a good room it wouldn't be far off what Stapleton's doing.
I think Powell's main verb is a Bricasti, but having seen videos of his studio, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a dozen other reverbs just hangin around, so who knows..
I can see trying a variation of this mixing technique, but I didn't love the mono thing that much. Perhaps leaving some room on the side panning so you could add something on the hard left and hard right later in a track could be interesting.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2023 21:51:03 GMT -6
Freaking love the verb on the vocal. Wonder what it is? Short Bricasti plate? Or maybe a real chamber. From what I've seen via video, Vance's go to vocal processing is a pair of Strymon El Capistans for slap (formerly Fulltones) and a Bricasti. Depending on where it was recorded it could also easily be real room or chamber I'd imagine. Definitely some subtle slap happening at the sides. Weird. I just bought an El Capistan today! |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 13, 2023 22:03:53 GMT -6
From what I've seen via video, Vance's go to vocal processing is a pair of Strymon El Capistans for slap (formerly Fulltones) and a Bricasti. Depending on where it was recorded it could also easily be real room or chamber I'd imagine. Definitely some subtle slap happening at the sides. Weird. I just bought an El Capistan today! And I sold mine about three months ago! Great box, though. Had mine for years. |
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Post by bentley on Jan 13, 2023 22:07:02 GMT -6
From what I've seen via video, Vance's go to vocal processing is a pair of Strymon El Capistans for slap (formerly Fulltones) and a Bricasti. Depending on where it was recorded it could also easily be real room or chamber I'd imagine. Definitely some subtle slap happening at the sides. Weird. I just bought an El Capistan today! Just for kicks I decided to listen to just the sides and you can hear the slapback in the track as well as the reverb. It blends so well and is so subtle. Listening through the album I can hear it on every lead vocal. Such great mixes. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2023 22:08:23 GMT -6
Weird. I just bought an El Capistan today! And I sold mine about three months ago! Great box, though. Had mine for years. I was just going to use my UAD stuff on the way in for delays - but nothing really does what el capistan does. Love that spring in it too. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 13, 2023 22:22:06 GMT -6
And I sold mine about three months ago! Great box, though. Had mine for years. I was just going to use my UAD stuff on the way in for delays - but nothing really does what el capistan does. Love that spring in it too. Yeah, definitely. I originally sold it thinking I'd get a v.2, but I also have a TimeLine, and have found ways to get a great tape delay sound out of it, so I haven't sprung for a new El Cap yet. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 13, 2023 22:41:26 GMT -6
Wonder what his process on vocals is with the EC?
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