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Post by reddirt on Jan 10, 2023 20:55:51 GMT -6
I'm interested there's no interest here in the Focals with the mid and high that can switch to not include the bass driver; anybody given them a run (Trio 11 and Trio 6 BE) Cheers, Ross Focals for lack of a better word suck. They don't really translate. Most of them are incoherent speakers with the bright, totally undamped tweeters, warm punchy woofers, and resonant cabinets. The ones that are coherent are the Arias and Shapes and those sound frickin underwater with the warm woofers and heavily damped magnesium alloy tweeters. Then the simple fact is that the consumer, if he has real speakers, is getting more detail with a cheap Asian button dome than you're getting with 2000 dollar monitors. Yes Dan, I get it that you're not keen on Focals and that is your right but there are many people who are so are there others here who have thoughts about the Focal trios and if not why not as they appear to tick a lot of boxes germane to this discussion. And yes I 've auditioned the shape twins and broadly speaking I agree with your characterisations. Cheers, Ross |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 10, 2023 20:58:14 GMT -6
When I got the Pelonis 4288 mkiis, and sound anchor stands for them at the same time, I was like FUUUCK when I put on some well mixed and mastered CDs of mine. I can’t mix for shit but, I can certainly hear if you can’t mix for shit either. 😂 I'm still jealous!
edit: to be more specific, I'm still jealous that you bought the BIG Pelonis -- not that I can/'t mix for shit.
I can't, but still...
You had a whole lot to do with me getting them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 21:08:09 GMT -6
Focals for lack of a better word suck. They don't really translate. Most of them are incoherent speakers with the bright, totally undamped tweeters, warm punchy woofers, and resonant cabinets. The ones that are coherent are the Arias and Shapes and those sound frickin underwater with the warm woofers and heavily damped magnesium alloy tweeters. Then the simple fact is that the consumer, if he has real speakers, is getting more detail with a cheap Asian button dome than you're getting with 2000 dollar monitors. Yes Dan, I get it that you're not keen on Focals and that is your right but there are many people who are so are there others here who have thoughts about the Focal trios and if not why not as they appear to tick a lot of boxes germane to this discussion. And yes I 've auditioned the shape twins and broadly speaking I agree with your characterisations. Cheers, Ross It has nothing to do with the overall frequency response but with how resonant the cabinets are in the upper bass and low mids and the timbre of the tweeters. You can have the nicest mid dome in the world but if 4k is ass and you tweeter isn't showing it, you're not mixing 4k. Tweeter is too bright or overshoots? Your mixes will come out dull. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 10, 2023 21:31:19 GMT -6
It's not a question of if it is feasible for all companies, I understand it's not. The point is that it is feasible for ATC, which is what sets them apart, and is a huge selling point. Audio products and CPU products couldn't be more different by the way, so it's not a great comparison in the first place. But I think it's a great comparison. ATC is a niche company, designing and building all their stuff by hand, in-house and development is slow. They serve a small market with extremely high-priced offerings only available through specialized dealers, etc., and their customers want exactly what ATC builds, so ATC would be hesitant to just change their design ethos on a whim. I t's really easy to supply replacement parts for 30 years when you don't ever change your designs.
Sennheiser is more like my comparisons. Global companies, serving anyone and everyone, everywhere. Components are sourced from the world market for cost/performance. Things are improved and changed constantly to meet customer expectations, market changes, engineering practices, material/part/component obsolescence, etc. From what I gather, the 0300's lacked in some aspects. Sennheiser/Neumann improved the design to meet customer expectations for the brand name. Why would they continue to support an inferior product? Don't get me wrong, if money was no object I think I would have a set of ATCs in the studio. However, for me, 4K spent on the KH310D's that will last me 10+ years is a deal vs. 15K ATCs that might last me 40 or they could last me 10 before needing repair. The difference is that I can probably replace the KH310's a couple times for the same overall cost as the ATCs and still cost about the same for the same amount of time. However, I can go buy the KH310's online and have them shipped to me tomorrow. ATC not so much. I mean, I had a tailored shirt 20 years ago. Cost me a grip. Why didn't it last 20 years? Why did the cloth get thin from wear and why didn't the tailor warrant the wear and tear? The killer point is this. It’s awesome that some companies can replace parts even 30 years later. But if it cost more than what would cost me to buy new monitors every ten years, what am I gaining? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 10, 2023 21:38:11 GMT -6
On a more serious note, one of the biggest differences between this place and most of the other forums is we tend to run the guy who says “ you have to have —— if you want to do it right “ unless of course it’s a safety issue and as much we would love it if we all had ATC 50’s we realize everyone has their own budget. HA, it's not necessarily about budget Eric.. I know this might be an odd concept but not everybody needs nor wants speakers that you can cook breakfast on or demolish a mountain with. As stange as it might sound I might actually like my Core 59's more than the ATC SCM's, just like some people prefer their Genelec's or KH310's. I get it, 100%..
There is really no right or wrong approach to this extremely subjective medium and outside of the tinterwebble the concept is simple. If I can't get stuff to translate after 3 months the monitors take a trip to e-bay.. That's my single criteria and it's no more complex than that.. Doesn't make for an enthralling discussion but hey, I do try..
Laughed out loud at this. In public. “What? Oh. This guy made a funny joke about how hot huge monitors run. But they sound great. You had to be there. Anyway, one more bourbon please.” |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 10, 2023 21:38:55 GMT -6
Actually, he is. Listening Party! Anyone who might find themselves in/driving through Central Illinois is welcome. Seriously, I'll happily make time to hand and chat and show off the monitors. Eric, just drive to StL and turn left! Stay on 55 instead of hitting 57 and you'll make it here. I keep saying one of these days Tony, one of these days! I keep saying one of these days Tony, one of these days! I live in Dallas but I am going to visit one day too. I'll be glad to have you! |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 10, 2023 21:47:47 GMT -6
This thread started on the basis of $5K monitors and moved up from there, it's an equipment discussion auction house. Also I have some awesome cheap mic's, leave my precious alone..
I was under the assumption the topic was "those who tell you to spend whatever you can on monitors?" Just providing my 2 cents here. I don't think your opinion is wrong. Just speaking from experience. Have I used cheap stuff that worked well and got the job done? Yes, of course. Does the high end stuff sound that much better, make decisions way easier, and make workflow faster? Yes. It's really as simple as that. Exactly. This is not meant to be a thread about which monitors are better than others. Just the opposite actually. It was meant to be a thread that I was wrong and you were all right! Your specific flavor of monitor choice is your flavor of choice. But the point is, the money really does make a difference. My hope is that the folks that don’t have first-hand experience in having higher end monitors can read this thread and come away with at least one thing. “I don’t know what to buy, but when I can this is where to put my money.” Also Shadow, note that all along I’ve referred the the 310’s as “high(er)” end. I agree. It’s a BMW 3 series not a Porsche. Good enough for me. (Also good enough for me in real life. I actually drive a BMW 330 and I’ve loved that line of car since I was six years old. I wouldn’t want to pay for more even if I could afford it. I love this car. That’s enough. Same with these 310’s so far.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 21:49:09 GMT -6
Killing the new monitor hype train a little bit because hey new monitors are great and all but 7500 for these new is ridiculous and most of that price is is just the Neumann brand name. Sennheiser jacked the price up far beyond what they're worth in many countries. They use generic Chinese drivers. The amps like most active monitors aren't good either. You used to be able to get them for 3k in the USA which is what sold pairs but for 7500 you're in Genelec and ATC territory which are more reliable, have more detail, more volume, and way better customer service for the jacked up prices. It's getting even worse. Sennheiser now wants to sell the 6" woofer KH150 monitor for 3k in the USA advertising a bunch of bullshit like DSP crossovers. Guess what? the cheapest possible stuff has DSP crossovers too because they're cheaper.
But for similar money you can get:
The old Dynaudio BM6a for 2200 still, the drivers are better, and any tech who can read a service manual can fix the amps. The Neumanns are wannabe Genelecs and 2k gets you real Genelec 8040s new and 8050 (bass and volume but crossover dip) are a little over 3k.
3k in the usa gets you the ATC SCM12 + a beefy power amp.
Barefoot Footprints. The hip hop guys love these. The woofers get loud when you turn them up.
4k gets you the Hedd type 20s on discount. I paid $4400 open box. Must be extra brutal in Canada. I know this dumb but I hate the design of the Genelecs. Could never look at those 8 hours a night. You're not wrong. The 1000 and 8000 series crossovers are ass and the 1000 tweeter is harsh as hell. The 8000 tweeter is more modern and damped which is less fatiguing but also makes compressors harder to adjust but not has hard as the Yamaha HS limited sound that lead to the crazy mix chains with compressors, limiters, tape plugs, and multiband madness. The 2 way Genelecs all have an audible crossover in the presence region where the tweeter crosses over to the woofer and the 8000 series all have something weird in the bass and then there's a dip like between 100-300hz or something that's just inaccurate. The 83x1 series gets it right but you must pay out the ass for real volume and the detail just isn't there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 21:59:41 GMT -6
The only things that guarantee translation of mixes of raw material are brutally honest from 100hz into the treble. Honest isn't nice. Yamahas are honest. ATCs are honest. Auratones and Fostex are honest. Those tiny acidic JBLs and Kalis are honest because they're designed by the same people. Questeds and KRKs are usually honest in the woofer. Dynaudios vary. Adams, Genelecs, PMCs, and Neumanns usually are not!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 10, 2023 22:04:03 GMT -6
The only things that guarantee translation of mixes of raw material are brutally honest from 100hz into the treble. Honest isn't nice. Yamahas are honest. ATCs are honest. Auratones and Fostex are honest. Those tiny acidic JBLs and Kalis are honest because they're designed by the same people. Questeds and KRKs are usually honest in the woofer. Dynaudios vary. Adams, Genelecs, PMCs, and Neumanns usually are not! I don’t know man. The 310’s were not nice to me on my last year or so of mixes! Haha. Either they’re honest (in my room) or they’re just gaslighting me. |
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Post by srb on Jan 10, 2023 22:41:10 GMT -6
I can't assume for everyone, but with each equipment change (and especially with monitors), I expect to get better at what I do. For any of us, that will be budget-dependent. It's hard for one size to fit all. I do think in this regard, more often than not, you get what you pay for. Lots of variables, though, as we all know.
Do good work and treat people well. The rest will eventually fall into place. Until it's time to make a change that enhances those opportunities...and your own, for self-discovery.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 11, 2023 1:58:40 GMT -6
Yes Dan, I get it that you're not keen on Focals and that is your right but there are many people who are so are there others here who have thoughts about the Focal trios and if not why not as they appear to tick a lot of boxes germane to this discussion. And yes I 've auditioned the shape twins and broadly speaking I agree with your characterisations. Cheers, Ross It has nothing to do with the overall frequency response but with how resonant the cabinets are in the upper bass and low mids and the timbre of the tweeters. You can have the nicest mid dome in the world but if 4k is ass and you tweeter isn't showing it, you're not mixing 4k. Tweeter is too bright or overshoots? Your mixes will come out dull. I had the Twins for a short while and that Beryllium tweeter - yikes. I had no idea what was going on in the top end - it's mission in life seemed to be "be bright" and that was it. I thought if I go by this tweeter as a reference then my mixes are going to sound like they live under a blanket not to mention worry about my ears long term. I also thought the bottom end was pretty muddy and not at all articulate - perhaps the more expensive Focals are much better? I sold the Twins post haste. Definitely not for me. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 11, 2023 3:57:02 GMT -6
I keep saying one of these days Tony, one of these days! I live in Dallas but I am going to visit one day too. I'll be glad to have you! have him ship a pair to Josh: couldn’t get a better review and the cat will love sitting on them !  |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 11, 2023 4:01:50 GMT -6
The focal comments are revealing of how personal monitors are. I know very experienced people, who know their stuff who swear by them.
I had a good and bad experience with shape 65 new and used.
Still like to demo the solo6b, although I’m leaning more towards the lyd48s
Can’t get a demo set up: drag but have been impressed with the lyd7, much less expensive.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 11, 2023 5:11:59 GMT -6
One of the best monitors I’ve ever owned for mixing was the Presonus Sceptres. The coaxial design with the horn just put the mids right in your face. They did however burn out my ears rather quickly and were the hissiest beasts I’ve ever used. But, as far as straight up balancing tools are concerned, they really kill in that department.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 7:25:51 GMT -6
I don’t know man. The 310’s were not nice to me on my last year or so of mixes! Haha. Either they’re honest (in my room) or they’re just gaslighting me. I'm scratching my head on this one as well, there's a slurry of measurements outside of ASR that say they are perfectly honest. I found them to be flat and accurate (enough) as well, I measured them in my acoustically designed room with REW and ARC. If I want to poke holes they have a lot of sub frequency distortion and I've heard better bass & mid range clarity from monitors (without being harsh) but they always came with a bigger price tag.
The only real issue I have with the KH310's now is their current pricing, they're starting to knock on the PSI A21's and Core 59's door. Yeah, you might say there's still a $1.2K difference but I managed to get 10% ($600.00) off without putting much effort into it.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 11, 2023 7:37:03 GMT -6
I have Adam AX77’s and Focal bE Twins and JBL LSR 4328’s, and some Genelecs 1030a’s. I also have a few pairs in storage. Time to sell and upgrade after reading this! Thanks a lot! Lol
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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2023 8:25:04 GMT -6
The only things that guarantee translation of mixes of raw material are brutally honest from 100hz into the treble. Honest isn't nice. Yamahas are honest. ATCs are honest. Auratones and Fostex are honest. Those tiny acidic JBLs and Kalis are honest because they're designed by the same people. Questeds and KRKs are usually honest in the woofer. Dynaudios vary. Adams, Genelecs, PMCs, and Neumanns usually are not! I don’t know man. The 310’s were not nice to me on my last year or so of mixes! Haha. Either they’re honest (in my room) or they’re just gaslighting me. Yeah, I've not been led astray by mine yet either. Great translation. I hear everything I need to hear. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2023 8:33:50 GMT -6
I have Adam AX77’s and Focal bE Twins and JBL LSR 4328’s, and some Genelecs 1030a’s. I also have a few pairs in storage. Time to sell and upgrade after reading this! Thanks a lot! Lol We do our best! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 11, 2023 8:54:17 GMT -6
The only things that guarantee translation of mixes of raw material are brutally honest from 100hz into the treble. Honest isn't nice. Yamahas are honest. ATCs are honest. Auratones and Fostex are honest. Those tiny acidic JBLs and Kalis are honest because they're designed by the same people. Questeds and KRKs are usually honest in the woofer. Dynaudios vary. Adams, Genelecs, PMCs, and Neumanns usually are not! I don’t know man. The 310’s were not nice to me on my last year or so of mixes! Haha. Either they’re honest (in my room) or they’re just gaslighting me. The issue I had with my 0300's (0310's predecessor) was they just sounded too polite. You could push the hi-hat or snare up a few dB's - sounded nice - pull them down a few dB's - sounded nice. They were very forgiving monitors - I personally felt lost in a sea of audio (so to speak) In stark contrast, if I push the hi-hat up 1dB too high on the ATC 25's I can immediately sense they're too loud and I need to back them down if I want a balanced mix or if I want a prominent hi-hat part leave it there but in the knowledge that it's now a prominent part. I must say though, I did enjoy listening to the 0300's and they never gave me ear fatigue on long sessions so the quality of the drivers and design was very good, just to soft and polite too my ears to be a great studio monitor. Perhaps the 0310's have improved greatly on the 0300's or you're coming up against a similar set of issues? |
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Post by noob on Jan 11, 2023 9:05:22 GMT -6
One of the best monitors I’ve ever owned for mixing was the Presonus Sceptres. The coaxial design with the horn just put the mids right in your face. They did however burn out my ears rather quickly and were the hissiest beasts I’ve ever used. But, as far as straight up balancing tools are concerned, they really kill in that department. Always found Sceptres to be better for music production than mixing. Never enjoyed mixing on them. Fatiguing monitors, and yes the mids are right in your face, but they lack low mid and high end clarity, I would always end up with muddy mixes, too much reverb. Could've just been my room. Also, they seemed to sound "too good" with a lot of stuff that didn't sound great on other systems. My favorite monitors have been One15's, Fostex 6301's, JBL 4311's. I love a great driver rather than a DSP product, most of the time. |
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Post by Quint on Jan 11, 2023 9:15:24 GMT -6
I don’t know man. The 310’s were not nice to me on my last year or so of mixes! Haha. Either they’re honest (in my room) or they’re just gaslighting me. The issue I had with my 0300's (0310's predecessor) was they just sounded too polite. You could push the hi-hat or snare up a few dB's - sounded nice - pull them down a few dB's - sounded nice. They were very forgiving monitors - I personally felt lost in a sea of audio (so to speak) In stark contrast, if I push the hi-hat up 1dB too high on the ATC 25's I can immediately sense they're too loud and I need to back them down if I want a balanced mix or if I want a prominent hi-hat part leave it there but in the knowledge that it's now a prominent part. I must say though, I did enjoy listening to the 0300's and they never gave me ear fatigue on long sessions so the quality of the drivers and design was very good, just to soft and polite to my ears to be a great studio monitor. Perhaps the 0310's have improved greatly on the 0300's or you're coming up against a similar set of issues? My understanding is that Neumann DID redesign certain aspects of the 0300 to improve upon it when they created the 310. Eric could maybe speak to that in detail. Maybe not. I'm not sure if anyone here knows the details about this. That said, I bet those ATCs are awesome. Edit: Yep. It looks like it was a complete redesign. So I wouldn't make too many assumptions about how the 310 sounds, based on experience with the 0300. www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh310a |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 9:39:49 GMT -6
How personal monitors are. I know very experienced people, who know their stuff who swear by them. It's 50% monitors 50% room and 85% of all statistics are made up..
Although being serious, when I put said monitors (you know which) in a sort of treated not that well designed absolutely massive room they were atrocious. I'd gone from oh my wow to just oh my..
Anywho, its been a fun RGO reprieve but life beckons and I can't put stuff off any longer. See you in a few months..
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2023 11:08:11 GMT -6
Q1. Why can't I get new OEM parts from Ford for my 67 Mercury? Q2. Why can't I get a brand new pentium 1 CPU for my 30 year old computer? Q3. Why can't I get a brand new capsule for my vintage u47? A1. You can. There are a few companies that buy up old never used parts inventories and stock them. They are reasonably priced too! I can hook you up. A2. Can't help you there! But OWC might be able to. A3. You can. Neumann still makes them, and better yet, they still make the K49 capsule with a better matched backplate. No change. Also . . . If you need a new M7 capsule, Gefell can help you. Life doesn't have to be as hard as we think it is sometimes.... there's help available! This community is filled with people who love to help each other. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 11, 2023 11:17:53 GMT -6
Ward loves Big older Tannoy, Ward will verify this. I track on a daily basis with the Tannoy System 215 DMT Mark 2s. And sometimes flick on the Tannoy System 12 DMTs I use for midfield. The 215s seem to respond from 15hz to 30khz. I'm exaggerating on purpose, but you get the point: You get EVERYTHING and they help you HPF LPF Scoop or bell what you need and then know what you have to work with later. Focals for lack of a better word suck. They don't really translate. Kinda sorta maybe ish . . . they work for a few mix engineers I know who are extremely successful. They sound beautiful so that's the challenge with them. I've not bought them yet and probably never will. “What? Oh. This guy made a funny joke about how hot huge monitors run. But they sound great. You had to be there. Anyway, one more bourbon please.” One more bourbon? Sorry, that's not gonna be enough! |
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