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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 13:13:10 GMT -6
I was under the assumption the topic was "those who tell you to spend whatever you can on monitors?" Just providing my 2 cents here. I don't think your opinion is wrong. Just speaking from experience. Have I used cheap stuff that worked well and got the job done? Yes, of course. Does the high end stuff sound that much better, make decisions way easier, and make workflow faster? Yes. It's really as simple as that. My Noob friend I’m not picking on you here, you just made me think I needed to point this out specifically about monitors. First what is the real difference between a speaker and a monitor? Nothing technically it’s how we use them: we listen to speakers and we listen through monitors. The trick is to learn what ever you’re using for monitoring dose wrong and what it gets right. It’s one of the reasons big for hire rooms are reluctant to change monitors , clients know them and it takes time to learn new speakers. I mean a lot of mains suck and there are NS10’s sitting on the bridge! The biggest problem with modern home monitors is the lack of LF because you can’t hear what you can’t hear, yeah duh! All speakers suck, if you tried to sell a mic preamp with the distortion specs of a pair of ATC’s at 35hz, you would be laughed at. It’s how they distort learning that distortion and finding a speaker designers preferences you can work with. Notice I didn’t say like, why ? because some of us ( Dan😁) learn they can actually work with speakers they don’t like. That's fair, but what I believe is that if you are still "learning to work with speakers you don't like" then you just haven't found the right speakers for your ears/room yet. I *LOVE* my Amphion One15's. The break in/learning period for them was a matter of days. They just worked for my ears, in my room. I immediately got great translation from them, even in the bass (which they lack). It's very possible that a lot of these speakers people are "learning to work with" are just bad speakers for them. If you can't make the right decisions, get the right amount of clarity and translation on your system, after a few weeks or months of working on them, then you've got some big questions to ask yourself, whether that be about room treatment, choice of monitors, how loud you're listening...etc. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 13:33:32 GMT -6
My Noob friend I’m not picking on you here, you just made me think I needed to point this out specifically about monitors. First what is the real difference between a speaker and a monitor? Nothing technically it’s how we use them: we listen to speakers and we listen through monitors. The trick is to learn what ever you’re using for monitoring dose wrong and what it gets right. It’s one of the reasons big for hire rooms are reluctant to change monitors , clients know them and it takes time to learn new speakers. I mean a lot of mains suck and there are NS10’s sitting on the bridge! The biggest problem with modern home monitors is the lack of LF because you can’t hear what you can’t hear, yeah duh! All speakers suck, if you tried to sell a mic preamp with the distortion specs of a pair of ATC’s at 35hz, you would be laughed at. It’s how they distort learning that distortion and finding a speaker designers preferences you can work with. Notice I didn’t say like, why ? because some of us ( Dan😁) learn they can actually work with speakers they don’t like. That's fair, but what I believe is that if you are still "learning to work with speakers you don't like" then you just haven't found the right speakers for your ears/room yet. I *LOVE* my Amphion One15's. The break in/learning period for them was a matter of days. They just worked for my ears, in my room. I immediately got great translation from them, even in the bass (which they lack). It's very possible that a lot of these speakers people are "learning to work with" are just bad speakers for them. If you can't make the right decisions, get the right amount of clarity and translation on your system, after a few weeks or months of working on them, then you've got some big questions to ask yourself, whether that be about room treatment, choice of monitors, how loud you're listening...etc. Fair, but here is the thing if you’re doing this for hire, the client isn’t paying you to learn or find them on their dime. Speakers you like can also be a pitfall, I would never use my favorite listening speakers in the studio nor my favorite for transparency, both are large dipoles that if I mix on are going to image weird on conventional boxes. Ward loves Big older Tannoy, I can and did decent work on them but for the year I owned a pair of SRM12’s I couldn’t stand to listen to the HF for pleasure, but I could work on them and get excellent results. It can’t be that I dislike compression drivers because I love the TAD’s and like the Radians. Hell I have a friend who I’m trying to find a HF driver that meshes better with his EAW Jf200’s ATC woofer, the very popular B&C 2in isn’t bad you just can hear the miss match at the x over. Yes the TAD worked but at $2K for a pair in a PA box he paid $400 for the pair used? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 13:53:43 GMT -6
That's fair, but what I believe is that if you are still "learning to work with speakers you don't like" then you just haven't found the right speakers for your ears/room yet. I *LOVE* my Amphion One15's. The break in/learning period for them was a matter of days. They just worked for my ears, in my room. I immediately got great translation from them, even in the bass (which they lack). It's very possible that a lot of these speakers people are "learning to work with" are just bad speakers for them. If you can't make the right decisions, get the right amount of clarity and translation on your system, after a few weeks or months of working on them, then you've got some big questions to ask yourself, whether that be about room treatment, choice of monitors, how loud you're listening...etc. Thing is Noob and I am being serious here, when I was field engineering we often didn't have a choice. The metal world was obsessed with Genelec's (not often the good one's) and Adam's, or as Eric said a pair of mains reflecting off a console with NS10's on the bridge (I'd often use headphones to be fair). Ask EmRR about some of the awful rooms / monitor setups quite a few multi-platinum albums came out of.
I've had quite a few pairs of monitors over the years, Event Opals -> ATC's (SCM 50's) then I sold my studio and bought some Focals -> Sonodyne's -> Equators and then landed on the LYD 48's. The voicing was great for me and I used them for years without problems, recently after a lot of saving (I upgrade every decade or so) I had my pick of near enough any monitor. Sure, it does very much help me work more efficiently but I don't often blame the tools.. A couple of monitors I tried absolutely sucked but hey, for the most part you make it work.
That seems like a bit of a lost art nowaday's, personally I believe that you shouldn't be so reliant on equipment, rooms, monitors etc. that you're lost without them. Although if you can treat yourself why the heck not?
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Post by drumsound on Jan 10, 2023 14:05:23 GMT -6
My Noob friend I’m not picking on you here, you just made me think I needed to point this out specifically about monitors. First what is the real difference between a speaker and a monitor? Nothing technically it’s how we use them: we listen to speakers and we listen through monitors. The trick is to learn what ever you’re using for monitoring dose wrong and what it gets right. It’s one of the reasons big for hire rooms are reluctant to change monitors , clients know them and it takes time to learn new speakers. I mean a lot of mains suck and there are NS10’s sitting on the bridge! The biggest problem with modern home monitors is the lack of LF because you can’t hear what you can’t hear, yeah duh! All speakers suck, if you tried to sell a mic preamp with the distortion specs of a pair of ATC’s at 35hz, you would be laughed at. It’s how they distort learning that distortion and finding a speaker designers preferences you can work with. Notice I didn’t say like, why ? because some of us ( Dan😁) learn they can actually work with speakers they don’t like. That's fair, but what I believe is that if you are still "learning to work with speakers you don't like" then you just haven't found the right speakers for your ears/room yet. I *LOVE* my Amphion One15's. The break in/learning period for them was a matter of days. They just worked for my ears, in my room. I immediately got great translation from them, even in the bass (which they lack). It's very possible that a lot of these speakers people are "learning to work with" are just bad speakers for them. If you can't make the right decisions, get the right amount of clarity and translation on your system, after a few weeks or months of working on them, then you've got some big questions to ask yourself, whether that be about room treatment, choice of monitors, how loud you're listening...etc. Part of this gets into experience. Almost every time I am looking for something new it has to do with the knowledge I've gained working with what I have. I'll eventually discover a specific hole and then I will look toward filling that hole. In terms of monitors, the journey involved wanting first, extension, then clarity around the crossover, then midrange detail. There were also a couple of deviations along the way. Things like the ole boss getting a deal on JBL 3-ways I kinda like but really were too large for the space. NS10 showed up for a while and I did convince myself of their importance. I got sick of them and when they were discontinued I was literally able to sell them within 3 hours of listing them on TapeOp. The monitors before my recent models, I was lucky enough to do a dual review of models I was interested in for Tape Op and had manufactures send me models at the same time. That resulted in monitors I used from 2006 until last August. During the summer, as I was deciding I needed 3-way monitors (see previous posts) I was researching, but also contacted a friend in town who builds speaker systems and asked about 3-way nearfields. He normally builds larger systems. He took the gauntlet and researched some things, and built a set that he thought would work well. He was gracious enough to install the system (monitors, DSP and amps) and tune them to my space AND let me use them for a while to determine if they worked for me. He even came by and did a couple of requested tweaks, and passed along a needed piece that he didn't charge me for. I just paid him yesterday. It's all part of the journey. I can't see a world where these aren't useful for me, and I'm lucky to have spent about half what something like the 310s cost... |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 10, 2023 14:11:55 GMT -6
My 0300's lasted 12 years until the left monitor amp failed. I contacted Sennheiser to organise a repair and they told me the 0300's were out of production and to essentially "throw my pair in a skip" and buy a pair of 0310's instead. My friend is a professional technician and offered to repair the amp but Sennheiser refused to give him the schematic - so that was that. When I opened up the amp to look inside I was surprised to see such a cheap looking amp board, mostly SMC - the burnt out part was all SMC! I contacted ATC to ask them what they would do in this scenario, if I were to buy into their brand, and they told me they were still fixing speakers and amps from models in the 1970's! I thought that's the kind of service I'm looking for if I'm spending north of 5K on monitors - plus they use proper discreet full sized components in a class A/B MOSFET amp - proper old school electronics that's serviceable and every driver has a serial number they have records of - as ever - you get what you pay for. So over and above the famed ATC forensic mid driver I went for ATC -25's on the basis I'll be using them for the rest of my career and then passing them on to my grandchildren - I like to get maximum value for money in the long term. I vowed never to buy Sennheiser again!!! And then this year bought a multi channel G4 wireless system for my band from them - it's an excellent system too - darn them  I just hope for all the 0310 users out there, Senny don't discontinue the range as from my experience, if anything fails on them, you'll be buying again! So you got 12 years out of a set of speakers and then got mad that one popped and bought a 10K$ set of speakers to spite them instead of just buying a cheap used one and swapping the amp? Do you also get mad that Apple doesn't service your Mac after 12 years? Ah ha .... you know nothing about Klein and Hummel 0300's! Even if I ever saw a cheap single one for sale (unlikely in any reasonable time frame) then you cannot simply swop out the amp as then the monitor would then need recalibrating and only Senny have the facilities to do that as it's a complex operation to return the 0300 to spec. I know this because a mid driver failed and I had to return it to Senny who then sent it back to Germany to be calibrated in their anechoic chamber. I asked Senny if I did find an amp would they be so kind as to do the re calibration and they said no. I'm not mad it failed after 12 years - I was upset they refused to repair it when they could of if they wanted - totally different thing. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 14:36:20 GMT -6
That's fair, but what I believe is that if you are still "learning to work with speakers you don't like" then you just haven't found the right speakers for your ears/room yet. I *LOVE* my Amphion One15's. The break in/learning period for them was a matter of days. They just worked for my ears, in my room. I immediately got great translation from them, even in the bass (which they lack). It's very possible that a lot of these speakers people are "learning to work with" are just bad speakers for them. If you can't make the right decisions, get the right amount of clarity and translation on your system, after a few weeks or months of working on them, then you've got some big questions to ask yourself, whether that be about room treatment, choice of monitors, how loud you're listening...etc. Part of this gets into experience. Almost every time I am looking for something new it has to do with the knowledge I've gained working with what I have. I'll eventually discover a specific hole and then I will look toward filling that hole. In terms of monitors, the journey involved wanting first, extension, then clarity around the crossover, then midrange detail. There were also a couple of deviations along the way. Things like the ole boss getting a deal on JBL 3-ways I kinda like but really were too large for the space. NS10 showed up for a while and I did convince myself of their importance. I got sick of them and when they were discontinued I was literally able to sell them within 3 hours of listing them on TapeOp. The monitors before my recent models, I was lucky enough to do a dual review of models I was interested in for Tape Op and had manufactures send me models at the same time. That resulted in monitors I used from 2006 until last August. During the summer, as I was deciding I needed 3-way monitors (see previous posts) I was researching, but also contacted a friend in town who builds speaker systems and asked about 3-way nearfields. He normally builds larger systems. He took the gauntlet and researched some things, and built a set that he thought would work well. He was gracious enough to install the system (monitors, DSP and amps) and tune them to my space AND let me use them for a while to determine if they worked for me. He even came by and did a couple of requested tweaks, and passed along a needed piece that he didn't charge me for. I just paid him yesterday. It's all part of the journey. I can't see a world where these aren't useful for me, and I'm lucky to have spent about half what something like the 310s cost... Tony’s custom experience was what it was supposed to be like in the late 70’s to early 90’s, but there were 2 major limiting factors. First Speaker guys vs room guys, yeah they have the same goal and deal with a lot of the same issues but they really do butt heads and have different priorities and understandings. Second most “ custom “ monitors are not really custom. Ever see a pair Augsburg’s that used a dome? Sure some use JBL others TAD and I think the new ones Radian ( look at the HF driver), but the loading is pretty much standard. The Horn is George’s design but it’s not like each was a custom design. The secret sauce was the crossover and EQ were dialed in for the room in the room ( those old White graphics with knobs rather than the more expensive and less consistent linear faders if you want to try a good graphic for cheap buy a White ). But George was really a room guy. The thing is even today I don’t know a guy who if you said “ I know you like Compression Drivers, but I want a dome” who is going to work with you. The biggest area I see most custom work is the subs. Now if I’m using wave guides or horns in this day in age it’s pretty damn easy to tweak them for the room with a CNC or 3D printer ( yeah I’m waiting till tax refund day). But a true “custom build takes time in the room before, an install and some tweaking. The tools we have make it easier but you still need to be there. It’s also fun ( well if you’re a speaker geek to sit down with a monitor designer and learn what room he designed his latest and greatest around. The other hard part is trying to find drivers that will mesh, yeah you cold go say all Morel Elite, but chances are your going to find the guy who was in charge of the tweeter team and woofer were different and you’re goi g to hear it. This is where smaller companies like ATC ( no longer sell to OEM) Volt ( No Tweeter) have an advantage small team who pretty much designed everything in house. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 10, 2023 14:38:13 GMT -6
HA, it's not necessarily about budget Eric.. I know this might be an odd concept but not everybody needs nor wants speakers that you can cook breakfast on or demolish a mountain with. As stange as it might sound I might actually like my Core 59's more than the ATC SCM's, just like some people prefer their Genelec's or KH310's. I get it, 100%..
There is really no right or wrong approach to this extremely subjective medium and outside of the tinterwebble the concept is simple. If I can't get stuff to translate after 3 months the monitors take a trip to e-bay.. That's my single criteria and it's no more complex than that.. Doesn't make for an enthralling discussion but hey, I do try..
I forget not everyone wants speakers 6ft by 3 ft by 2in or 48x36x36, I’m sorry my brain doesn’t work that way😁 I mean the H208’s are the second smallest speakers I own and by god I have a wife that doesn’t see it as a problem 😁 I have a feeling she knew what she was getting into... |
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 14:43:33 GMT -6
I forget not everyone wants speakers 6ft by 3 ft by 2in or 48x36x36, I’m sorry my brain doesn’t work that way😁 I mean the H208’s are the second smallest speakers I own and by god I have a wife that doesn’t see it as a problem 😁 I have a feeling she knew what she was getting into... Well when we first met she walked into my college apartment and was 2 stacks of 2 JBL 4560’s with RCF 2 in horns above them. So yeah she knew😁. The funny part was everyone thought we needed a billion watts to power them when the rig was efficient enough that we could use a 100 watts and shake the neighbors. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:04:23 GMT -6
My 0300's lasted 12 years until the left monitor amp failed. I contacted Sennheiser to organise a repair and they told me the 0300's were out of production and to essentially "throw my pair in a skip" and buy a pair of 0310's instead. My friend is a professional technician and offered to repair the amp but Sennheiser refused to give him the schematic - so that was that. When I opened up the amp to look inside I was surprised to see such a cheap looking amp board, mostly SMC - the burnt out part was all SMC! I contacted ATC to ask them what they would do in this scenario, if I were to buy into their brand, and they told me they were still fixing speakers and amps from models in the 1970's! I thought that's the kind of service I'm looking for if I'm spending north of 5K on monitors - plus they use proper discreet full sized components in a class A/B MOSFET amp - proper old school electronics that's serviceable and every driver has a serial number they have records of - as ever - you get what you pay for. So over and above the famed ATC forensic mid driver I went for ATC -25's on the basis I'll be using them for the rest of my career and then passing them on to my grandchildren - I like to get maximum value for money in the long term. I vowed never to buy Sennheiser again!!! And then this year bought a multi channel G4 wireless system for my band from them - it's an excellent system too - darn them I just hope for all the 0310 users out there, Senny don't discontinue the range as from my experience, if anything fails on them, you'll be buying again! So you got 12 years out of a set of speakers and then got mad that one popped and bought a 10K$ set of speakers to spite them instead of just buying a cheap used one and swapping the amp? Do you also get mad that Apple doesn't service your Mac after 12 years? That’s a bullshit claim. The Kh310 and KH420 are a substantial investment and would be able to work for decades should a service manual or crossover spec be available. Techs can build you new crossovers with whatever amps you want and digital solutions make this easy now. MiniDSP, REW, or Limitless make it cake. There are many doing this for the JBL 7 series and even M2 because the crown drivecore amps are ass. In the pro audio world for a company that was trying to move into broadcast… that was huge and they’ve lost out to Genelec and ATC in the American commercial studio market after the install market dried up and ATC and Genelec's corporate competitors bit down on cyanide capsules. This gear lasts for decades if service is provided and drivers, the consumable parts along with caps, still available. Most of those old Andy Munroe designed Dynaudios, Questeds not the cheap blue ones, ProAcs, and Genelecs are still working 30 years later! Even many the old passive KRKs are still working with replacement Focal parts although with a different sound. The crossovers on the Klein und Hummel and now Neumann branded monitors are very complex with individual calibrations for the drivers that were cheap. Sennheiser wouldn’t provide a service manual to multiple people I’ve talked to or their own former distributors. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:23:48 GMT -6
This gear lasts for decades if service is provided and drivers, the consumable parts along with caps, still available. Most of those old Andy Munroe designed Dynaudios, Questeds not the cheap blue ones, ProAcs, and Genelecs are still working 30 years later! Even many the old passive KRKs are still working with replacement Focal parts although with a different sound. After this thread I became curious, so it turns out with the Core's you can replace the drivers yourself within 0.2dB calibration window. The amps can also be fixed by a tech at any point, thing is they need to go to one of their authorised service centers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:25:32 GMT -6
This gear lasts for decades if service is provided and drivers, the consumable parts along with caps, still available. Most of those old Andy Munroe designed Dynaudios, Questeds not the cheap blue ones, ProAcs, and Genelecs are still working 30 years later! Even many the old passive KRKs are still working with replacement Focal parts although with a different sound. After this thread I became curious, so it turns out with the Core's you can replace the drivers yourself within 0.2dB calibration window. The amps can also be fixed by a tech at any point, thing is they need to go to one of their authorised service centers.
The one in the US is T&R electronics.
Yep GoeTek owned Dyn has three USA service centers / techs too. Their pro distribution just is nonexistent here. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:29:43 GMT -6
After this thread I became curious, so it turns out with the Core's you can replace the drivers yourself within 0.2dB calibration window. The amps can also be fixed by a tech at any point, thing is they need to go to one of their authorised service centers.
The one in the US is T&R electronics.
Yep GoeTek owned Dyn has three USA service centers / techs too. Their pro distribution just is nonexistent here. How expectedly opposite, they've got the support infrastructure you just can't buy them.
At least it's nice to know that if my amp's hit the floor I can get them fixed easily enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:32:49 GMT -6
I'm interested there's no interest here in the Focals with the mid and high that can switch to not include the bass driver; anybody given them a run (Trio 11 and Trio 6 BE) Cheers, Ross Focals for lack of a better word suck. They don't really translate. Most of them are incoherent speakers with the bright, totally undamped tweeters, warm punchy woofers, and resonant cabinets. The ones that are coherent are the Arias and Shapes and those sound frickin underwater with the warm woofers and heavily damped magnesium alloy tweeters. Then the simple fact is that the consumer, if he has real speakers, is getting more detail with a cheap Asian button dome than you're getting with 2000 dollar monitors. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:34:14 GMT -6
Yep GoeTek owned Dyn has three USA service centers / techs too. Their pro distribution just is nonexistent here. How expectedly opposite, they've got the support infrastructure you just can't buy them.
At least it's nice to know that if my amp's hit the floor I can get them fixed easily enough.
Hey with them using an off the shelf class d module (like PMC and HEDD now), you could just bolt on another class d module of your choice in jiffy. God forbid if the dsp crossover dies in 5 to 10 years though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 15:40:50 GMT -6
How expectedly opposite, they've got the support infrastructure you just can't buy them.
At least it's nice to know that if my amp's hit the floor I can get them fixed easily enough.
Hey with them using an off the shelf class d module (like PMC and HEDD now), you could just bolt on another class d module of your choice in jiffy. God forbid if the dsp crossover dies in 5 to 10 years though. Nope, the service center said it's not an issue. They're still supporting the old defunkt BM's and Air's. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 15:41:28 GMT -6
After this thread I became curious, so it turns out with the Core's you can replace the drivers yourself within 0.2dB calibration window. The amps can also be fixed by a tech at any point, thing is they need to go to one of their authorised service centers.
The one in the US is T&R electronics.
Yep GoeTek owned Dyn has three USA service centers / techs too. Their pro distribution just is nonexistent here. Dynaudio’s growth in the pro world was when TC Electronics had distribution, when they split the new owners who are big in car stereo didn’t understand the pro world was different. Car stereo dealers buy in bulk and sell through their stock then place another order so the distributor doesn’t need to stock a lot in country and tends to hold onto demo stock. Pro audio, dealers hold minimal stock, especially on larger items, dealers really like Companies that drop ship you have to have them in country. Very different worlds even though it’s all speakers. The good news is repairing car Audio isn’t that different from pro monitors. Modular makes it easy but, man I think of a bunch of old customers with screwdrivers near magnets and speaker diagrams scares me, hell I see guys not unplugging and pulling amp modules in my head. Wonder how much damage is the result of warranty self service 🤔. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 10, 2023 16:14:38 GMT -6
Already got the Adcom my friend! Its powering my lowly NHT SuperOnes. The difficult part is finding someplace to demo monitors. Where are you located Tbone? I have the 12’s here in North Jersey. I also power mine with Behringer amp and it’s great and cheap. Thanks for the offer but I’m in Portland, OR |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 10, 2023 16:34:06 GMT -6
Part of this gets into experience. Almost every time I am looking for something new it has to do with the knowledge I've gained working with what I have. I'll eventually discover a specific hole and then I will look toward filling that hole. In terms of monitors, the journey involved wanting first, extension, then clarity around the crossover, then midrange detail. There were also a couple of deviations along the way. Things like the ole boss getting a deal on JBL 3-ways I kinda like but really were too large for the space. NS10 showed up for a while and I did convince myself of their importance. I got sick of them and when they were discontinued I was literally able to sell them within 3 hours of listing them on TapeOp. The monitors before my recent models, I was lucky enough to do a dual review of models I was interested in for Tape Op and had manufactures send me models at the same time. That resulted in monitors I used from 2006 until last August. During the summer, as I was deciding I needed 3-way monitors (see previous posts) I was researching, but also contacted a friend in town who builds speaker systems and asked about 3-way nearfields. He normally builds larger systems. He took the gauntlet and researched some things, and built a set that he thought would work well. He was gracious enough to install the system (monitors, DSP and amps) and tune them to my space AND let me use them for a while to determine if they worked for me. He even came by and did a couple of requested tweaks, and passed along a needed piece that he didn't charge me for. I just paid him yesterday. It's all part of the journey. I can't see a world where these aren't useful for me, and I'm lucky to have spent about half what something like the 310s cost... Tony’s custom experience was what it was supposed to be like in the late 70’s to early 90’s, but there were 2 major limiting factors. First Speaker guys vs room guys, yeah they have the same goal and deal with a lot of the same issues but they really do butt heads and have different priorities and understandings. Second most “ custom “ monitors are not really custom. Ever see a pair Augsburg’s that used a dome? Sure some use JBL others TAD and I think the new ones Radian ( look at the HF driver), but the loading is pretty much standard. The Horn is George’s design but it’s not like each was a custom design. The secret sauce was the crossover and EQ were dialed in for the room in the room ( those old White graphics with knobs rather than the more expensive and less consistent linear faders if you want to try a good graphic for cheap buy a White ). But George was really a room guy. The thing is even today I don’t know a guy who if you said “ I know you like Compression Drivers, but I want a dome” who is going to work with you. The biggest area I see most custom work is the subs. Now if I’m using wave guides or horns in this day in age it’s pretty damn easy to tweak them for the room with a CNC or 3D printer ( yeah I’m waiting till tax refund day). But a true “custom build takes time in the room before, an install and some tweaking. The tools we have make it easier but you still need to be there. It’s also fun ( well if you’re a speaker geek to sit down with a monitor designer and learn what room he designed his latest and greatest around. The other hard part is trying to find drivers that will mesh, yeah you cold go say all Morel Elite, but chances are your going to find the guy who was in charge of the tweeter team and woofer were different and you’re goi g to hear it. This is where smaller companies like ATC ( no longer sell to OEM) Volt ( No Tweeter) have an advantage small team who pretty much designed everything in house. It does feel a bit like days gone by. We talked about what I was looking for. I listened to some of what he had built (I've done this with him a few times over the years). He came up with a concept based on both goals and available parts. He did some things and listened and built something for "proof of concept" and then he upgraded the woofer and spent some time with them, then called me over to his place. We just listened to music, heard the detail, listened to how they reacted to music each of us knew. Then he brought them to the studio and we spent a couple hours tweaking and listening. He left and I continued listening. He came back and did some further adjustments. I continued both listening and working. He came by yesterday and I had Sketches of Spain on and told him to enjoy his labor. He (and I) are both super happy with the results. He noticed that they have opened up as they've broken in. Even while we were chatting, he'd get pulled into the music, and that is not a unique experience with these. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 10, 2023 17:37:32 GMT -6
Tony’s custom experience was what it was supposed to be like in the late 70’s to early 90’s, but there were 2 major limiting factors. First Speaker guys vs room guys, yeah they have the same goal and deal with a lot of the same issues but they really do butt heads and have different priorities and understandings. Second most “ custom “ monitors are not really custom. Ever see a pair Augsburg’s that used a dome? Sure some use JBL others TAD and I think the new ones Radian ( look at the HF driver), but the loading is pretty much standard. The Horn is George’s design but it’s not like each was a custom design. The secret sauce was the crossover and EQ were dialed in for the room in the room ( those old White graphics with knobs rather than the more expensive and less consistent linear faders if you want to try a good graphic for cheap buy a White ). But George was really a room guy. The thing is even today I don’t know a guy who if you said “ I know you like Compression Drivers, but I want a dome” who is going to work with you. The biggest area I see most custom work is the subs. Now if I’m using wave guides or horns in this day in age it’s pretty damn easy to tweak them for the room with a CNC or 3D printer ( yeah I’m waiting till tax refund day). But a true “custom build takes time in the room before, an install and some tweaking. The tools we have make it easier but you still need to be there. It’s also fun ( well if you’re a speaker geek to sit down with a monitor designer and learn what room he designed his latest and greatest around. The other hard part is trying to find drivers that will mesh, yeah you cold go say all Morel Elite, but chances are your going to find the guy who was in charge of the tweeter team and woofer were different and you’re goi g to hear it. This is where smaller companies like ATC ( no longer sell to OEM) Volt ( No Tweeter) have an advantage small team who pretty much designed everything in house. It does feel a bit like days gone by. We talked about what I was looking for. I listened to some of what he had built (I've done this with him a few times over the years). He came up with a concept based on both goals and available parts. He did some things and listened and built something for "proof of concept" and then he upgraded the woofer and spent some time with them, then called me over to his place. We just listened to music, heard the detail, listened to how they reacted to music each of us knew. Then he brought them to the studio and we spent a couple hours tweaking and listening. He left and I continued listening. He came back and did some further adjustments. I continued both listening and working. He came by yesterday and I had Sketches of Spain on and told him to enjoy his labor. He (and I) are both super happy with the results. He noticed that they have opened up as they've broken in. Even while we were chatting, he'd get pulled into the music, and that is not a unique experience with these. This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 18:05:27 GMT -6
It does feel a bit like days gone by. We talked about what I was looking for. I listened to some of what he had built (I've done this with him a few times over the years). He came up with a concept based on both goals and available parts. He did some things and listened and built something for "proof of concept" and then he upgraded the woofer and spent some time with them, then called me over to his place. We just listened to music, heard the detail, listened to how they reacted to music each of us knew. Then he brought them to the studio and we spent a couple hours tweaking and listening. He left and I continued listening. He came back and did some further adjustments. I continued both listening and working. He came by yesterday and I had Sketches of Spain on and told him to enjoy his labor. He (and I) are both super happy with the results. He noticed that they have opened up as they've broken in. Even while we were chatting, he'd get pulled into the music, and that is not a unique experience with these. This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? Road trip time Mark we all need to meet at Tony’s! Yeah I’m probably one of the closest and I keep saying I need to Head North East but it always seam’s something comes up! |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 10, 2023 19:02:41 GMT -6
This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? Road trip time Mark we all need to meet at Tony’s! Yeah I’m probably one of the closest and I keep saying I need to Head North East but it always seam’s something comes up! Back in my full time touring days, I did that ‘KC to Chicago’ (passing Champaign) drive more times than I can possibly remember. |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 10, 2023 20:02:51 GMT -6
It does feel a bit like days gone by. We talked about what I was looking for. I listened to some of what he had built (I've done this with him a few times over the years). He came up with a concept based on both goals and available parts. He did some things and listened and built something for "proof of concept" and then he upgraded the woofer and spent some time with them, then called me over to his place. We just listened to music, heard the detail, listened to how they reacted to music each of us knew. Then he brought them to the studio and we spent a couple hours tweaking and listening. He left and I continued listening. He came back and did some further adjustments. I continued both listening and working. He came by yesterday and I had Sketches of Spain on and told him to enjoy his labor. He (and I) are both super happy with the results. He noticed that they have opened up as they've broken in. Even while we were chatting, he'd get pulled into the music, and that is not a unique experience with these. This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? Actually, he is. This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? Road trip time Mark we all need to meet at Tony’s! Yeah I’m probably one of the closest and I keep saying I need to Head North East but it always seam’s something comes up! Listening Party! Anyone who might find themselves in/driving through Central Illinois is welcome. Seriously, I'll happily make time to hand and chat and show off the monitors. Eric, just drive to StL and turn left! Road trip time Mark we all need to meet at Tony’s! Yeah I’m probably one of the closest and I keep saying I need to Head North East but it always seam’s something comes up! Back in my full time touring days, I did that ‘KC to Chicago’ (passing Champaign) drive more times than I can possibly remember. Stay on 55 instead of hitting 57 and you'll make it here. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 20:28:01 GMT -6
This sounds fantastic, Tony. Is he thinking of continuing to build them? Like, for others? Actually, he is. Road trip time Mark we all need to meet at Tony’s! Yeah I’m probably one of the closest and I keep saying I need to Head North East but it always seam’s something comes up! Listening Party! Anyone who might find themselves in/driving through Central Illinois is welcome. Seriously, I'll happily make time to hand and chat and show off the monitors. Eric, just drive to StL and turn left! Back in my full time touring days, I did that ‘KC to Chicago’ (passing Champaign) drive more times than I can possibly remember. Stay on 55 instead of hitting 57 and you'll make it here. I keep saying one of these days Tony, one of these days! |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 10, 2023 20:35:27 GMT -6
Actually, he is. Listening Party! Anyone who might find themselves in/driving through Central Illinois is welcome. Seriously, I'll happily make time to hand and chat and show off the monitors. Eric, just drive to StL and turn left! Stay on 55 instead of hitting 57 and you'll make it here. I keep saying one of these days Tony, one of these days! I live in Dallas but I am going to visit one day too. |
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Post by plinker on Jan 10, 2023 20:46:29 GMT -6
When I got the Pelonis 4288 mkiis, and sound anchor stands for them at the same time, I was like FUUUCK when I put on some well mixed and mastered CDs of mine. I can’t mix for shit but, I can certainly hear if you can’t mix for shit either. 😂 I'm still jealous!
edit: to be more specific, I'm still jealous that you bought the BIG Pelonis -- not that I can/'t mix for shit.
I can't, but still...
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