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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 9:04:30 GMT -6
My 0300's lasted 12 years until the left monitor amp failed. I contacted Sennheiser to organise a repair and they told me the 0300's were out of production and to essentially "throw my pair in a skip" and buy a pair of 0310's instead. My friend is a professional technician and offered to repair the amp but Sennheiser refused to give him the schematic - so that was that. When I opened up the amp to look inside I was surprised to see such a cheap looking amp board, mostly SMC - the burnt out part was all SMC! I contacted ATC to ask them what they would do in this scenario, if I were to buy into their brand, and they told me they were still fixing speakers and amps from models in the 1970's! I thought that's the kind of service I'm looking for if I'm spending north of 5K on monitors - plus they use proper discreet full sized components in a class A/B MOSFET amp - proper old school electronics that's serviceable and every driver has a serial number they have records of - as ever - you get what you pay for. So over and above the famed ATC forensic mid driver I went for ATC -25's on the basis I'll be using them for the rest of my career and then passing them on to my grandchildren - I like to get maximum value for money in the long term. I vowed never to buy Sennheiser again!!! And then this year bought a multi channel G4 wireless system for my band from them - it's an excellent system too - darn them  I just hope for all the 0310 users out there, Senny don't discontinue the range as from my experience, if anything fails on them, you'll be buying again! So you got 12 years out of a set of speakers and then got mad that one popped and bought a 10K$ set of speakers to spite them instead of just buying a cheap used one and swapping the amp? Do you also get mad that Apple doesn't service your Mac after 12 years? I think the point was that if you are spending that much money on speakers, you want the company to be able to repair it if it breaks. 12 years is not that long, especially for high end monitors. I personally can't stand that it's normal now for companies to completely abandon their product lines and loyal customers. Apple's terrible servicing / planned obsolesce is becoming the industry standard. Personally, I am saving up for some ATC's now, and it gives me peace of mind to know that the company actually cares about their customers and still repairs monitors from the 70's. That is a huge selling point. When you are spending 8-9K on a new set of monitors, you want to know that you are locked in with a company you trust, not some big corporate factory making shareholders happy, that doesn't give a crap about you in the long-term. |
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Post by svart on Jan 10, 2023 9:33:33 GMT -6
So you got 12 years out of a set of speakers and then got mad that one popped and bought a 10K$ set of speakers to spite them instead of just buying a cheap used one and swapping the amp? Do you also get mad that Apple doesn't service your Mac after 12 years? I think the point was that if you are spending that much money on speakers, you want the company to be able to repair it if it breaks. 12 years is not that long, especially for high end monitors. I personally can't stand that it's normal now for companies to completely abandon their product lines and loyal customers. Apple's terrible servicing / planned obsolesce is becoming the industry standard. Personally, I am saving up for some ATC's now, and it gives me peace of mind to know that the company actually cares about their customers and still repairs monitors from the 70's. That is a huge selling point. When you are spending 8-9K on a new set of monitors, you want to know that you are locked in with a company you trust, not some big corporate factory making shareholders happy, that doesn't give a crap about you in the long-term. No, I get what they were trying to say. I think it's a ridiculously romantic notion that any company has ever supported their products for eternity. Why can't I get new OEM parts from Ford for my 67 Mercury? Why can't I get a brand new pentium 1 CPU for my 30 year old computer? Why can't I get a brand new capsule for my vintage u47? Because companies have always moved on. Spending money has never equaled forever support. It's just a way to talk yourself into something new and exciting. |
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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 9:46:19 GMT -6
It's not a question of if it is feasible for all companies, I understand it's not. The point is that it is feasible for ATC, which is what sets them apart, and is a huge selling point. Audio products and CPU products couldn't be more different by the way, so it's not a great comparison in the first place.
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Post by svart on Jan 10, 2023 10:00:18 GMT -6
It's not a question of if it is feasible for all companies, I understand it's not. The point is that it is feasible for ATC, which is what sets them apart, and is a huge selling point. Audio products and CPU products couldn't be more different by the way, so it's not a great comparison in the first place. But I think it's a great comparison. ATC is a niche company, designing and building all their stuff by hand, in-house and development is slow. They serve a small market with extremely high-priced offerings only available through specialized dealers, etc., and their customers want exactly what ATC builds, so ATC would be hesitant to just change their design ethos on a whim. I t's really easy to supply replacement parts for 30 years when you don't ever change your designs.
Sennheiser is more like my comparisons. Global companies, serving anyone and everyone, everywhere. Components are sourced from the world market for cost/performance. Things are improved and changed constantly to meet customer expectations, market changes, engineering practices, material/part/component obsolescence, etc. From what I gather, the 0300's lacked in some aspects. Sennheiser/Neumann improved the design to meet customer expectations for the brand name. Why would they continue to support an inferior product? Don't get me wrong, if money was no object I think I would have a set of ATCs in the studio. However, for me, 4K spent on the KH310D's that will last me 10+ years is a deal vs. 15K ATCs that might last me 40 or they could last me 10 before needing repair. The difference is that I can probably replace the KH310's a couple times for the same overall cost as the ATCs and still cost about the same for the same amount of time. However, I can go buy the KH310's online and have them shipped to me tomorrow. ATC not so much. I mean, I had a tailored shirt 20 years ago. Cost me a grip. Why didn't it last 20 years? Why did the cloth get thin from wear and why didn't the tailor warrant the wear and tear? |
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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 10:15:09 GMT -6
But again, I feel like you guys are focusing on why other companies can't do it. All I'm saying is that ATC can do it. That's the point. If the 0300's were inferior products, why release them in the first place? That's a question of QC, so I'm not sure it's an argument in favor of one of these global brands. 4k for KH301's and then buying an extra monitor when one breaks is basically the price of some new ATC's.
I guess it's just a question of personal taste and what people look for when they want to invest in a product that they're going to spend years and years working on, on a daily basis. For me, I am willing to spend more than my car is worth, because I rarely ever drive. I use my car once a week, maybe less. I use my monitors on a daily basis, for 10+ hours a day, and I make a living with them. Of course, that won't be the case for most people, but for me ATC's are an extremely rational decision. You aren't just paying for the monitors, you're paying for the company and the "care" of the people in that company.
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 10:34:39 GMT -6
I'm interested there's no interest here in the Focals with the mid and high that can switch to not include the bass driver; anybody given them a run (Trio 11 and Trio 6 BE) Cheers, Ross Focal’s biggest problem is the cones can’t keep up with the BE dome. Then if you switch out the BE for the Aluminum you miss the resolution of the BE. They do have a series that intergrate with the BE, but those are used exclusively in the very high dollar JM labs and some OEM. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 10:40:21 GMT -6
But agian, I feel like you guys are focusing on why other companies can't do it. All I'm saying is that ATC can do it. That's the point. If the 0300's were inferior products, why release them in the first place? 4k for KH301's and then buying an extra monitor when one breaks is basically the price of some new ATC's. The KH310's are probably closer (in terms of frequency range etc.) to the ATC SCM 50's which cost about $17K rather than the SCM20's? You're talking about a small 2-way monitor here not a full range three way which is a completely different product. For their original price of about $3700.00 the KH310's were obviously built to a budget and I wouldn't consider them high end.. However that doesn't mean they don't sound great and do their required functions. So why release them in the first place? Well, are people not allowed to have the option to buy a decent 3-way? Must they spend at least $10K on the ATC SCM 25's before they're not deemed "inferior"? Also no, I could buy a second set of 59's and still be $5K better off for it.. For you maybe, if you can get along fine with some KH310's then you could buy a lifetimes worth of spares for the cost difference. I removed my other post because I'm just repeating myself in various ways.. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 10:40:59 GMT -6
I think the point was that if you are spending that much money on speakers, you want the company to be able to repair it if it breaks. 12 years is not that long, especially for high end monitors. I personally can't stand that it's normal now for companies to completely abandon their product lines and loyal customers. Apple's terrible servicing / planned obsolesce is becoming the industry standard. Personally, I am saving up for some ATC's now, and it gives me peace of mind to know that the company actually cares about their customers and still repairs monitors from the 70's. That is a huge selling point. When you are spending 8-9K on a new set of monitors, you want to know that you are locked in with a company you trust, not some big corporate factory making shareholders happy, that doesn't give a crap about you in the long-term. No, I get what they were trying to say. I think it's a ridiculously romantic notion that any company has ever supported their products for eternity. Why can't I get new OEM parts from Ford for my 67 Mercury? Why can't I get a brand new pentium 1 CPU for my 30 year old computer? Why can't I get a brand new capsule for my vintage u47? Because companies have always moved on. Spending money has never equaled forever support. It's just a way to talk yourself into something new and exciting. Don’t really disagree but in the old days K&H was one of those company’s that did and ATC still is. Is it a true unreasonable metric when someone still meets it? Now I’ll put a little water on that ATC can’t provide the original Audax tweet used in the early speakers, Audax quit making it and replacement dia years ago, but they have a substitute, have yet to hear anyone complain about it most prefer the replacement. The original Audax wasn’t anyone’s favorite dome but it took lots of power. |
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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 10:52:00 GMT -6
But agian, I feel like you guys are focusing on why other companies can't do it. All I'm saying is that ATC can do it. That's the point. If the 0300's were inferior products, why release them in the first place? 4k for KH301's and then buying an extra monitor when one breaks is basically the price of some new ATC's. The KH310's are probably closer (in terms of frequency range etc.) to the ATC SCM 50's which cost about $17K than the SCM20's? You're talking about a small 2-way monitor here not a full range three way which is a completely different product. For their original price of about $3700.00 the KH310's were obviously built to a budget and I wouldn't consider them high end.. However that doesn't mean they don't sound great and do their required functions. So why release them in the first place? Well, are people not allowed to have the option to buy a decent 3-way? Must they spend at least $10K on the ATC SCM 25's before they're not deemed "inferior"? Also no, I could buy a second set of 59's and still be $5K better off for it.. For you maybe, if you can get along fine with some KH310's then you could buy a lifetimes worth of spares for the cost difference. I removed my other post because I'm just repeating myself in various ways.. Keep in mind, I don't own any ATC's yet. I have spent the past few months deciding on what to purchase. KH301's are still near the top of my list. It's not an "easy" question, and for most people, they will have very very different answers. I've been having a lot of similar conversations with some of my engineer friends. A lot of them seem to be saying, if you have the means to afford ATC's, you should get them. These are not amateurs, they are folks who are grammy winners, extremely trustworthy imo. I also know a ton of great engineers that work off of KH301's as well. And I think that they are amazing 3-way speakers. Not sure I would rank them next to ATC SCM 50's though. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 10, 2023 11:04:24 GMT -6
Not certain, there is one right answer, as its about preferences and cost distribution: up front or over time ?
The fact that you can get atc refurbed to factory spec is certainly an attribute, specially great if you live down the lane.
What does/will it cost to ship a set of bigger atc monitors to the uk and back and pay for the refurb vs just buying new monitors, say every 10 years ?
Comes down to preference and economics/affordability ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 11:11:11 GMT -6
Keep in mind, I don't own any ATC's yet. I have spent the past few months deciding on what to purchase. KH301's are still near the top of my list. It's not an "easy" question, and for most people, they will have very very different answers. I've been having a lot of similar conversations with some of my engineer friends. A lot of them seem to be saying, if you have the means to afford ATC's, you should get them. These are not amateurs, they are folks who are grammy winners, extremely trustworthy imo. I also know a ton of great engineers that work off of KH301's as well. And I think that they are amazing 3-way speakers. Not sure I would rank them next to ATC SCM 50's though. Hmm..You've got the KH310's, Genelec "the one's / 8341A" and HEDD type 20's. They all hang around the same level IMV with their own positives, but ask one person and you'll get a completely different response to the next. IMO they're all good so if that's your budget cool, try them.
Then on the next level up you've got the Core 59's, ADAM S3H's and the PSI A21-M's, this is where the realm of diminishing returns started to kick in for me.
Finally we've got ATC 3-ways, D&D, upper end PSI etc. and they are all fantastic but I already think the 59's or A21-M's are already a bit much for my studio so, I bought some compressors instead, sweet. The SCM 50's are more about physics than sound, small planets tend circle around them and crane's can barely hold a single speaker. They are very good though.
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Post by Quint on Jan 10, 2023 11:12:11 GMT -6
I dislike monitor shopping, because of:
1. It's inherent and elevated subjectivity.
2. The extra variables induced by the room and it's level of acoustic treatment or lack thereof.
3. The extra degree of difficulty and expense that comes with auditioning different monitors. It's not as easy to compare multiple sets of monitors in your room as it is to compare several different EQs or compressors. That's all assuming that you can even easily get a hold of the various monitors you're interested in auditioning together.
4. Monitors are just plain more expensive to buy than a lot of the other gear that we all talk about.
I'm at the point where I'll either repair or replace my 310s with another pair of 310s one day, if/when they need repair or replacing, or possibly go for one last "upgrade to the monitors I die with", and get a pair of ATCs.
But going thru multiple rounds of monitor upgrading over the remaining decades of my life? No thanks. My last pair of monitors are nearly 20 years old and, now with my new 310s, I don't want to go through that again for another 20 years, if I can avoid it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 10, 2023 11:14:12 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 11:26:12 GMT -6
I dislike monitor shopping, because of: 1. It's inherent and elevated subjectivity. 2. The extra variables induced by the room and it's level of acoustic treatment or lack thereof. 3. The extra degree of difficulty and expense that comes with auditioning different monitors. It's not as easy to compare multiple sets of monitors in your room as it is to compare several different EQs or compressors. That's all assuming that you can even easily get a hold of the various monitors you're interested in auditioning together. 4. Monitors are just plain more expensive to buy than a lot of the other gear that we all talk about. I'm at the point where I'll either repair or replace my 310s with another pair of 310s one day, if/when they need repair or replacing, or possibly go for one last "upgrade to the monitors I die with", and get a pair of ATCs. But going thru multiple rounds of monitor upgrading over the remaining decades of my life? No thanks. My last pair of monitors are nearly 20 years old and, now with my new 310s, I don't want to go through that again for another 20 years, if I can avoid it. You think it’s hard for you? Add politics to it, I had the Genelec rep and former US distributior and the US Quested distributor plus the reps for most of the other major manufacturers at the time all at my wedding reception! Think of how many people any choice would piss off🤪 |
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Post by Quint on Jan 10, 2023 11:27:51 GMT -6
I dislike monitor shopping, because of: 1. It's inherent and elevated subjectivity. 2. The extra variables induced by the room and it's level of acoustic treatment or lack thereof. 3. The extra degree of difficulty and expense that comes with auditioning different monitors. It's not as easy to compare multiple sets of monitors in your room as it is to compare several different EQs or compressors. That's all assuming that you can even easily get a hold of the various monitors you're interested in auditioning together. 4. Monitors are just plain more expensive to buy than a lot of the other gear that we all talk about. I'm at the point where I'll either repair or replace my 310s with another pair of 310s one day, if/when they need repair or replacing, or possibly go for one last "upgrade to the monitors I die with", and get a pair of ATCs. But going thru multiple rounds of monitor upgrading over the remaining decades of my life? No thanks. My last pair of monitors are nearly 20 years old and, now with my new 310s, I don't want to go through that again for another 20 years, if I can avoid it. You think it’s hard for you? Add politics to it, I had the Genelec rep and former US distributior and the US Quested distributor plus the reps for most of the other major manufacturers at the time all at my wedding reception! Think of how many people any choice would piss off🤪 Ha! I certainly don't need that extra variable to deal with too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 11:35:31 GMT -6
Comes down to preference and economics/affordability ? This forum's just crazy sometimes (and I get wrapped up in it too  )..
"Walks into RGO for a cheap mic, come's out with a million dollar studio on credit from VK"..
Just use whatever and make good shit. Seriously, some of the crap I had to use decades back sheesh..
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 11:45:03 GMT -6
Comes down to preference and economics/affordability ? This forum's just crazy sometimes (and I get wrapped up in it too )..
"Walks into RGO for a cheap mic, come's out with a million dollar studio on credit from VK"..
Just use whatever and make good shit. Seriously, some of the crap I had to use decades back sheesh..
Hey Danny you forgot a bunch of new Friends! On a more serious note, one of the biggest differences between this place and most of the other forums is we tend to run the guy who says “ you have to have —— if you want to do it right “ unless of course it’s a safety issue and as much we would love it if we all had ATC 50’s we realize everyone has their own budget. |
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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 11:48:24 GMT -6
Comes down to preference and economics/affordability ? This forum's just crazy sometimes (and I get wrapped up in it too )..
"Walks into RGO for a cheap mic, come's out with a million dollar studio on credit from VK"..
Just use whatever and make good shit. Seriously, some of the crap I had to use decades back sheesh..
Like people have said previously, it does come down to economics a lot of times, it's all extremely subjective. Can you make a great record with cheaper mics? Yes. Will you have to work 100x harder to get the sound you want? Also, yes. The same goes for monitors - and also, there is a point of diminishing returns, as you've mentioned. When I first got my One15's, it was like going from wearing foggy glasses to having 20/20 vision. It was at that point that I realized the importance of monitor quality and how much more efficient my workflow can be with great monitoring. I make mix decisions 10x faster than I used to. I used to spend an entire week mastering a project, now I can finish it in a day or two. It's like night and day. Mixing is way easier. Could I get the job done with some NS10's? Yeah of course, but it won't be as fun and it also will take a lot longer to figure out what's going on in the high end and low end of the mix. Could I work off of KH301's and get a great mix? Of course, they are great monitors. It takes time to learn any monitors, but I'm sure they would be an incredible investment. Are ATC's worth the massive increase in price? Maybe not for most people, but for some, maybe they would be. And that's where economics do play a role. If I can save up for 6 months and afford ATC's, I will take that extra ~10% clarity in the long-term over buying now for less. You can always use the less expensive gear, and get the job done. For those that want to maximize efficiency, clarity, and translation on all fronts, the top shelf gear tends to be worth it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 11:54:42 GMT -6
On a more serious note, one of the biggest differences between this place and most of the other forums is we tend to run the guy who says “ you have to have —— if you want to do it right “ unless of course it’s a safety issue and as much we would love it if we all had ATC 50’s we realize everyone has their own budget. HA, it's not necessarily about budget Eric.. I know this might be an odd concept but not everybody needs nor wants speakers that you can cook breakfast on or demolish a mountain with. As stange as it might sound I might actually like my Core 59's more than the ATC SCM's, just like some people prefer their Genelec's or KH310's. I get it, 100%..
There is really no right or wrong approach to this extremely subjective medium and outside of the tinterwebble the concept is simple. If I can't get stuff to translate after 3 months the monitors take a trip to e-bay.. That's my single criteria and it's no more complex than that.. Doesn't make for an enthralling discussion but hey, I do try..
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 12:01:27 GMT -6
On a more serious note, one of the biggest differences between this place and most of the other forums is we tend to run the guy who says “ you have to have —— if you want to do it right “ unless of course it’s a safety issue and as much we would love it if we all had ATC 50’s we realize everyone has their own budget. HA, it's not necessarily about budget Eric.. I know this might be an odd concept but not everybody needs nor wants speakers that you can cook breakfast on or demolish a mountain with. As stange as it might sound I might actually like my Core 59's more than the ATC SCM's, just like some people prefer their Genelec's or KH310's. I get it, 100%..
There is really no right or wrong approach to this extremely subjective medium and outside of the tinterwebble the concept is simple. If I can't get stuff to translate after 3 months the monitors take a trip to e-bay.. That's my single criteria and it's no more complex than that.. Doesn't make for an enthralling discussion but hey, I do try..
I forget not everyone wants speakers 6ft by 3 ft by 2in or 48x36x36, I’m sorry my brain doesn’t work that way😁 I mean the H208’s are the second smallest speakers I own and by god I have a wife that doesn’t see it as a problem 😁 |
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Post by matt on Jan 10, 2023 12:15:34 GMT -6
I suppose I fall into the "spend whatever you can" category. I've owned a pair of PMC twotwo 8s for seven years (!) and am eyeing their new 6-2 three-ways. And then there's the XBD option if you add a couple of 8-2 subs. Now that setup would rock . . .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 12:39:05 GMT -6
Like people have said previously, it does come down to economics a lot of times, it's all extremely subjective. Can you make a great record with cheaper mics? Yes. Will you have to work 100x harder to get the sound you want? Also, yes. The same goes for monitors - and also, there is a point of diminishing returns, as you've mentioned. You can always use the less expensive gear, and get the job done. For those that want to maximize efficiency, clarity, and translation on all fronts, the top shelf gear tends to be worth it. This thread started on the basis of $5K monitors and moved up from there, it's an equipment discussion auction house. Also I have some awesome cheap mic's, leave my precious alone..
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Post by noob on Jan 10, 2023 12:43:25 GMT -6
Like people have said previously, it does come down to economics a lot of times, it's all extremely subjective. Can you make a great record with cheaper mics? Yes. Will you have to work 100x harder to get the sound you want? Also, yes. The same goes for monitors - and also, there is a point of diminishing returns, as you've mentioned. You can always use the less expensive gear, and get the job done. For those that want to maximize efficiency, clarity, and translation on all fronts, the top shelf gear tends to be worth it. This thread started on the basis of $5K monitors and moved up from there, it's an equipment discussion auction house. Also I have some awesome cheap mic's, leave my precious alone..
I was under the assumption the topic was "those who tell you to spend whatever you can on monitors?" Just providing my 2 cents here. I don't think your opinion is wrong. Just speaking from experience. Have I used cheap stuff that worked well and got the job done? Yes, of course. Does the high end stuff sound that much better, make decisions way easier, and make workflow faster? Yes. It's really as simple as that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2023 12:50:36 GMT -6
I was under the assumption the topic was "those who tell you to spend whatever you can on monitors?" Just providing my 2 cents here. I don't think your opinion is wrong. Just speaking from experience. Have I used cheap stuff that worked well and got the job done? Yes, of course. Does the high end stuff sound that much better, make decisions way easier, and make workflow faster? Yes. It's really as simple as that. Unless it's stated that we are being serious, it's probably best to assume otherwise around these parts.
Nah, Gravy9 finally caved in after I kept throwing the 59's and KH310's in their direction. They saw the light and here's the thread.. Sure, 25 years doing this isn't much compared to some but in a vehement fashion I doth extole the pro's of a good monitor set. Seems I learned something at least, maybe?
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2023 13:07:21 GMT -6
This thread started on the basis of $5K monitors and moved up from there, it's an equipment discussion auction house. Also I have some awesome cheap mic's, leave my precious alone..
I was under the assumption the topic was "those who tell you to spend whatever you can on monitors?" Just providing my 2 cents here. I don't think your opinion is wrong. Just speaking from experience. Have I used cheap stuff that worked well and got the job done? Yes, of course. Does the high end stuff sound that much better, make decisions way easier, and make workflow faster? Yes. It's really as simple as that. My Noob friend I’m not picking on you here, you just made me think I needed to point this out specifically about monitors. First what is the real difference between a speaker and a monitor? Nothing technically it’s how we use them: we listen to speakers and we listen through monitors. The trick is to learn what ever you’re using for monitoring dose wrong and what it gets right. It’s one of the reasons big for hire rooms are reluctant to change monitors , clients know them and it takes time to learn new speakers. I mean a lot of mains suck and there are NS10’s sitting on the bridge! The biggest problem with modern home monitors is the lack of LF because you can’t hear what you can’t hear, yeah duh! All speakers suck, if you tried to sell a mic preamp with the distortion specs of a pair of ATC’s at 35hz, you would be laughed at. It’s how they distort learning that distortion and finding a speaker designers preferences you can work with. Notice I didn’t say like, why ? because some of us ( Dan😁) learn they can actually work with speakers they don’t like. |
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