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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 9, 2023 11:55:16 GMT -6
Fine, you're right.
I just wanna say I'm pretty shocked by these KH310's. I don't want to get too much into those monitors specifically, I just want to comment on the the cost/value balance of high(er) end monitors as a concept.
Quick summary... the cost value is actually pretty linear. First, some personal opinions.
Grain Of Salt
Whenever people have said things like "buy the best monitors you can afford" I've always taken it with a big grain of salt. In my head I'm kind of rolling my eyes and saying "yeah, you say that about literally every piece of gear." And in most cases it turns out not to be true. Take microphones for example.
In my years as a sideman I've used pretty much every mic you can imagine outside of the really esoteric stuff. In my years doing production work I've acquired a pretty solid mic collection.
My favorite microphone is my custom built Signal Art 48 that is just awesome. It costs a couple grand it sounds like it. My second favorite mic is my Lewitt 440. It cost a few hundred bucks and sounds like it's worth 10x that amount. In the middle is UT FET47 (I'm seeing a pattern here on mic design...), $800 and worth every penny.
But on the other hand I've bought expensive mics that are like "huh? what's the big deal" and I've acquired supposed hidden gem mics that are like "this is not a bargain, it's just cheap and bad."
Enter The KH310
So when I unboxed the new monitors I did so assuming it was about 50/50 that I would be re-boxing them and shipping them back in a few days. I just couldn't believe that monitors that cost 5x what they were replacing could actually be 5x better in any tangible way.
And boy was I wrong.
This is just a different game. It's like getting glasses for the first time. I remember when I got glasses when I was ten years old I said to my mom "I had no idea what leaves actually looked like." This is the same thing.
Some examples...
- My various hardware compressors sound completely different from each other. Even the cheaper ones I used for "transparency" like the RNC and the ART VLA. Two weeks ago I would have said they both basically have no sound but they can grab stuff and control it. Not so.
- I found out that I don't have a single delay plugin that can give me transparent delay to do things like build my own room effects. I had no idea these plugins were adding so much tone where I wasn't asking for it. Turns out what I really wanted was the bog simple Apple AUDelay (I'm chaining it into a tape sim so I needed something ultra-clean). What I thought was clean was not at all.
If you're still skeptical, read this
Here's the biggest example of all.
I was scoping out the Tegeler Creme RC just a few days before getting these monitors. My feeling was that it made a difference but that, honestly, I was having trouble hearing it. I could hear what the Creme was doing but I wasn't sure what the big deal was. So I cued up one of the reviews I had just watched a few days prior and watched it again.
While the reviewer was giving his opening spiel, I was reading something else and only half paying attention. The music started and I still was reading something else. Then...
"Whoa, what happened? Did something just come unplugged?"
Something happened to the music in the review that literally made me jerk my head up and say "what the hell just happened?" What happened? Dude hit the bypass button on the unit he was testing.
Are you getting this?
A hardware review that four days ago felt like the hardware was barely different than the bypass was now so distinct that it grabbed my ear even what I wasn't listening for it. If that doesn't say it all, what could? And oh yeah, I also have two sets of very premium headphones I switch between, that's not the issue.
I am now "monitor first" guy
So the next time someone tells me they've got money to put in their studio my advice is going to be this. And I can't believe I'm now one of "those" guys but... I guess I am now. Treat your room and then spend all your money on monitors. Like... every penny. Use whatever mics you already own and your stock plugins, you can iterate on all that later.
If I ran into money trouble, I'd rather be left with my laptop and these monitors than literally any other piece of gear I own.
What can I say? I've seen the light!
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Post by jmoose on Jan 9, 2023 12:40:23 GMT -6
Rad. So what monitors did you replace?
Speakers are arguably the most important piece of gear in the studio. If you aren't hearing things well most likely you probably aren't capturing what you hope you are. And thats going to lead to all sorts of translation issues.
I've often thought that if someone came through and took all my outboard gear, left me with a smackie console I'd probably still be able to cut solid tracks as long as I have the Dynaudios.
When you get down to it everything we do... every decision that gets made, everything we hear? It all comes out of speakers so if they're painting a cloudy picture? That's going to push everything sidewards.
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Post by drumsound on Jan 9, 2023 12:42:00 GMT -6
Very cool, 9. I'm curious, are these your first 3-way monitors? That was a thing that sparked me to do my monitor upgrades that I'm actually finalizing later today.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 12:51:01 GMT -6
Grain Of SaltWhenever people have said things like "buy the best monitors you can afford" I've always taken it with a big grain of salt. In my head I'm kind of rolling my eyes and saying " yeah, you say that about literally every piece of gear." And in most cases it turns out not to be true. Take microphones for example. Wow, it's like you've picked up some mind glasses as well. I do say that..
I'm joking of course, when you get past a couple of hundred there's generally some piece of equipment that I like. Unfortunately monitors don't seem to follow that sentiment and it doesn't stop at the KH310's either. Welcome to the club, you'll have REW, ARC or Sonarworks out in no time trying to squeeze every bit of extra awesomeness out of them..
P.S I don't want to be that person who said I told you so but.. I'm gonna do it anyway. Told ya so  ..
P.P.S There's an eerie pop on one of the songs I listen to that I'd never noticed before picking up my behemoths, first time I went outside to check if something was going on. The second time I thought I was going crazy and the penny dropped the third time around.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 9, 2023 14:07:01 GMT -6
Rad. So what monitors did you replace? Speakers are arguably the most important piece of gear in the studio. If you aren't hearing things well most likely you probably aren't capturing what you hope you are. And thats going to lead to all sorts of translation issues. I've often thought that if someone came through and took all my outboard gear, left me with a smackie console I'd probably still be able to cut solid tracks as long as I have the Dynaudios. When you get down to it everything we do... every decision that gets made, everything we hear? It all comes out of speakers so if they're painting a cloudy picture? That's going to push everything sidewards. Right... because even though the Mackie sucks, if I know HOW and exactly why it sucks I can work around it. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 9, 2023 14:09:49 GMT -6
Very cool, 9. I'm curious, are these your first 3-way monitors? That was a thing that sparked me to do my monitor upgrades that I'm actually finalizing later today. Yeah, and I think you're right. It might just be the nature of 3-way monitors. I was using KRK VXT6's before which I got on with very nicely for years until a woofer blew. I could have repaired the woofer (and still will) but honestly the monitors are only worth a few hundred bucks at this point and I was gonna spend half that to fix them. Seemed the right time. I also was using a pair of Pioneer RM-05's which I really like but are really most useful for being really fast/tight sounding. I've moved one off to the side and am running it in mono while I do level mixes. I used to use a bluetooth speaker for that but hey... we all deserve a little luxury! EDIT: I also have a pair of old LSR 2328Ps I use when I'm tracking drums in my rehearsal space. Nice and loud for the deaf ear set. But, again, two way. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 9, 2023 14:43:33 GMT -6
Speakers and mics, it all comes down to speakers and mics. they are the highest distortion devices we use, one is our crayons the other our paper.
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Post by svart on Jan 9, 2023 14:49:04 GMT -6
I mentioned this here a long time ago and while I know some folks agreed, others gave it a big fat MEH. If you can't hear what you're trying to hear, then what's the point of having good mics and gear and whatever?
Monitors should be first and foremost. I do think that the cost region that the KH310 plays in is where the diminishing returns start though. I would love some 15K$ ATCs, but I don't think I need to save up at this point..
Anyway, congrats on the KH310 monitors. I LOVE mine too. One of the best upgrades I ever did and worth every penny.
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Post by ericn on Jan 9, 2023 15:11:12 GMT -6
I mentioned this here a long time ago and while I know some folks agreed, others gave it a big fat MEH. If you can't hear what you're trying to hear, then what's the point of having good mics and gear and whatever? Monitors should be first and foremost. I do think that the cost region that the KH310 plays in is where the diminishing returns start though. I would love some 15K$ ATCs, but I don't think I need to save up at this point.. Anyway, congrats on the KH310 monitors. I LOVE mine too. One of the best upgrades I ever did and worth every penny. I’ll argue the point of diminishing returns is the ATC SCM50’s you get the S mid SL woofer so low distortion and useable low end, anything more is just SPL and more LF. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 9, 2023 15:11:55 GMT -6
A number of people here very happily running the 310’s:right, you are either all right or all wrong, I think I know which ?  |
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Post by Quint on Jan 9, 2023 15:16:05 GMT -6
If I ever upgrade from my 310s, it'll be for something like ATCs, but I kind of doubt that will ever happen. ATCs are a lot of money and it'd be hard to justify that kind of expense, especially when the 310s are already great.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 15:21:54 GMT -6
A number of people here very happily running the 310’s:right, you are either all right or all wrong, I think I know which ? There's always something "better" out there but you've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere, unless you're rich of course. The LYD's and KH310's had an amazing price / performance ratio when I was looking and that's rarer than you'd think. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 9, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -6
The 310 retail for around $7500 cdn plus tax and I can see a used pair for $4500, but is just not the right time for me:)
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2023 16:24:22 GMT -6
Rad. So what monitors did you replace? Speakers are arguably the most important piece of gear in the studio. If you aren't hearing things well most likely you probably aren't capturing what you hope you are. And thats going to lead to all sorts of translation issues. I've often thought that if someone came through and took all my outboard gear, left me with a smackie console I'd probably still be able to cut solid tracks as long as I have the Dynaudios. When you get down to it everything we do... every decision that gets made, everything we hear? It all comes out of speakers so if they're painting a cloudy picture? That's going to push everything sidewards. Yeah - everything before the speakers doesn’t really matter if you can’t really hear what you’re doing. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2023 16:26:13 GMT -6
Fine, you're right. I just wanna say I'm pretty shocked by these KH310's. I don't want to get too much into those monitors specifically, I just want to comment on the the cost/value balance of high(er) end monitors as a concept. Quick summary... the cost value is actually pretty linear. First, some personal opinions. Grain Of SaltWhenever people have said things like "buy the best monitors you can afford" I've always taken it with a big grain of salt. In my head I'm kind of rolling my eyes and saying "yeah, you say that about literally every piece of gear." And in most cases it turns out not to be true. Take microphones for example. In my years as a sideman I've used pretty much every mic you can imagine outside of the really esoteric stuff. In my years doing production work I've acquired a pretty solid mic collection. My favorite microphone is my custom built Signal Art 48 that is just awesome. It costs a couple grand it sounds like it. My second favorite mic is my Lewitt 440. It cost a few hundred bucks and sounds like it's worth 10x that amount. In the middle is UT FET47 (I'm seeing a pattern here on mic design...), $800 and worth every penny. But on the other hand I've bought expensive mics that are like "huh? what's the big deal" and I've acquired supposed hidden gem mics that are like "this is not a bargain, it's just cheap and bad." Enter The KH310So when I unboxed the new monitors I did so assuming it was about 50/50 that I would be re-boxing them and shipping them back in a few days. I just couldn't believe that monitors that cost 5x what they were replacing could actually be 5x better in any tangible way. And boy was I wrong. This is just a different game. It's like getting glasses for the first time. I remember when I got glasses when I was ten years old I said to my mom "I had no idea what leaves actually looked like." This is the same thing. Some examples... - My various hardware compressors sound completely different from each other. Even the cheaper ones I used for "transparency" like the RNC and the ART VLA. Two weeks ago I would have said they both basically have no sound but they can grab stuff and control it. Not so. - I found out that I don't have a single delay plugin that can give me transparent delay to do things like build my own room effects. I had no idea these plugins were adding so much tone where I wasn't asking for it. Turns out what I really wanted was the bog simple Apple AUDelay (I'm chaining it into a tape sim so I needed something ultra-clean). What I thought was clean was not at all. If you're still skeptical, read thisHere's the biggest example of all. I was scoping out the Tegeler Creme RC just a few days before getting these monitors. My feeling was that it made a difference but that, honestly, I was having trouble hearing it. I could hear what the Creme was doing but I wasn't sure what the big deal was. So I cued up one of the reviews I had just watched a few days prior and watched it again. While the reviewer was giving his opening spiel, I was reading something else and only half paying attention. The music started and I still was reading something else. Then... "Whoa, what happened? Did something just come unplugged?" Something happened to the music in the review that literally made me jerk my head up and say "what the hell just happened?" What happened? Dude hit the bypass button on the unit he was testing. Are you getting this? A hardware review that four days ago felt like the hardware was barely different than the bypass was now so distinct that it grabbed my ear even what I wasn't listening for it. If that doesn't say it all, what could? And oh yeah, I also have two sets of very premium headphones I switch between, that's not the issue. I am now "monitor first" guySo the next time someone tells me they've got money to put in their studio my advice is going to be this. And I can't believe I'm now one of "those" guys but... I guess I am now. Treat your room and then spend all your money on monitors. Like... every penny. Use whatever mics you already own and your stock plugins, you can iterate on all that later. If I ran into money trouble, I'd rather be left with my laptop and these monitors than literally any other piece of gear I own. What can I say? I've seen the light! Wait till you demo a Trinnov |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 9, 2023 16:27:03 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 9, 2023 16:34:45 GMT -6
Arguably, yes, as you have no sub integration issues and the 3 speakers were designed for each other’s performance and share the crossover.
The sealed 310 must provide all the bass you would ever need ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 9, 2023 16:40:52 GMT -6
interesting read JK, interesting result, would have thought the 3 way would outperform the amphion, more enveloping than the one 18, that’s saying something !
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 9, 2023 17:28:31 GMT -6
The problem with these monitor revelations is it just keeps going until you've defiantly lost the plot and spent too much .... unless you're earning the big bucks with your music/productions.
I went from TOA ME265's to Mackie HR824's .... it was a Wow.
Then from the Mackie's to the Klein and Hummel 0300's .... a Big Wow!
Then from 0300's to ATC 25's .... this was almost a full on epiphany - like a serious "oh my gosh" moment!!
That's my limit, I know some people have ATC 50's or Kii 3's etc but $12K+ is crazy.
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Post by christopher on Jan 9, 2023 17:34:34 GMT -6
In defense of my old stubborn ways: when people 15 years ago said get the most expensive “studio monitors” “you can afford”.. I’d go look in the $3k and under range and they’d sound nothing like a good set of speakers. At least not my spoiled ears raised on 4 way hifi.. I have always heard most 2 ways and felt, magic in>garbage out.. you just have to try to match the garbage sound together. Lately the tech has seemed to embrace correction, at least some way to adjust the balance, as well as great specs and nice 3 ways. I’m pretty tempted. Kh310 but also seeing 60 month financing? Very tempting now.
Ok ok ok.. I admit under $1k “monitors” are tools, not toys, some of these cheaper ones are great at forcing decisions even though some may be raspy and blurry, or overload easily etc. they may have a place for when you need them. Maybe
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 9, 2023 18:03:07 GMT -6
In defense of my old stubborn ways: when people 15 years ago said get the most expensive “studio monitors” “you can afford”.. I’d go look in the $3k and under range and they’d sound nothing like a good set of speakers. At least not my spoiled ears raised on 4 way hifi.. I have always heard most 2 ways and felt, magic in>garbage out.. you just have to try to match the garbage sound together. Lately the tech has seemed to embrace correction, at least some way to adjust the balance, as well as great specs and nice 3 ways. I’m pretty tempted. Kh310 but also seeing 60 month financing? Very tempting now. Ok ok ok.. I admit under $1k “monitors” are tools, not toys, some of these cheaper ones are great at forcing decisions even though some may be raspy and blurry, or overload easily etc. they may have a place for when you need them. Maybe Where are you seeing 60 month financing? Geez. I thought 48 no interest was good. They must be getting desperate to get people to pay the inflated prices. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 9, 2023 18:03:15 GMT -6
When I got the Pelonis 4288 mkiis, and sound anchor stands for them at the same time, I was like FUUUCK when I put on some well mixed and mastered CDs of mine. I can’t mix for shit but, I can certainly hear if you can’t mix for shit either. 😂
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 18:16:53 GMT -6
Hell yeah new monitor day! New drivers and amps that haven't begun their death march yet! Part of it isn't that you're getting a better speaker, you're getting a not broken speaker which is why all these used monitor prices are bogus. I think the KRK expensive 6" woofer models are better monitors than the KH 120 and 310... WHILE THEY LAST. The tweeters burn out, killing high frequency detail, and the plate amps will break in a couple years on the KRKs. The tweeter was probably cooked long before your woofer was which is why the KH310 seem like such a big upgrade. The KH310 will last until the plate amps give out or the heavily limited woofer cooks itself playing back kicks or resonances. christopher often the cheaper monitors or the passive monitors present more info than the expensive active ones. Not just only the info you need. JBL didn't turn on built in limiter for the 305's chip amp so it gets louder but more distorted in the low mids than most smaller expensive monitors. Even the Yamahas are more limited. Those cheap little JBLs will just play until the drivers crap out while more expensive small active monitors like all the 6" genelecs and the genelec wannabe neumanns simply won't let the woofer get louder. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 9, 2023 18:35:01 GMT -6
Hell yeah new monitor day! New drivers and amps that haven't begun their death march yet! Part of it isn't that you're getting a better speaker, you're getting a not broken speaker which is why all these used monitor prices are bogus. I think the KRK expensive 6" woofer models are better monitors than the KH 120 and 310... WHILE THEY LAST. The tweeters burn out, killing high frequency detail, and the plate amps will break in a couple years on the KRKs. The tweeter was probably cooked long before your woofer was which is why the KH310 seem like such a big upgrade. The KH310 will last until the plate amps give out or the heavily limited woofer cooks itself playing back kicks or resonances. christopher often the cheaper monitors or the passive monitors present more info than the expensive active ones. Not just only the info you need. JBL didn't turn on built in limiter for the 305's chip amp so it gets louder but more distorted in the low mids than most smaller expensive monitors. Even the Yamahas are more limited. Those cheap little JBLs will just play until the drivers crap out while more expensive small active monitors like all the 6" genelecs and the genelec wannabe neumanns simply won't let the woofer get louder. Dan without trying brings up something about most speakers DSP that always bugs me, in most DSP set ups you can set up a limiter after each crossover point, but you can’t link them. So if you key the LF limiter you can keep pushing the HF and MF and get this strange mix perspective. I know they are there for driver protection but still it wouldn’t be hard in DSP to give me a link / key option. Instead what I find myself and others doing is lowering the threshold on the input limiter so it kicks in a little earlier, limiting your overall SPL. Now besides this what I would love to see someone do is give me a heat sensor for each driver so I could key a true expander and compensate for power compression. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 18:36:43 GMT -6
The 310 retail for around $7500 cdn plus tax and I can see a used pair for $4500, but is just not the right time for me:) Killing the new monitor hype train a little bit because hey new monitors are great and all but 7500 for these new is ridiculous and most of that price is is just the Neumann brand name. Sennheiser jacked the price up far beyond what they're worth in many countries. They use generic Chinese drivers. The amps like most active monitors aren't good either. You used to be able to get them for 3k in the USA which is what sold pairs but for 7500 you're in Genelec and ATC territory which are more reliable, have more detail, more volume, and way better customer service for the jacked up prices. It's getting even worse. Sennheiser now wants to sell the 6" woofer KH150 monitor for 3k in the USA advertising a bunch of bullshit like DSP crossovers. Guess what? the cheapest possible stuff has DSP crossovers too because they're cheaper.
But for similar money you can get:
The old Dynaudio BM6a for 2200 still, the drivers are better, and any tech who can read a service manual can fix the amps. The Neumanns are wannabe Genelecs and 2k gets you real Genelec 8040s new and 8050 (bass and volume but crossover dip) are a little over 3k.
3k in the usa gets you the ATC SCM12 + a beefy power amp.
Barefoot Footprints. The hip hop guys love these. The woofers get loud when you turn them up.
4k gets you the Hedd type 20s on discount. |
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