|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 13:45:03 GMT -6
Hi all, so I’m looking for a pair of ribbons for their figure 8 strengths; I ordered a pair of stagers and unfortunately their transformer design was picking up a bad buzz in my room. This is an issue with certain transformer mics, while others are completely fine. I can’t figure out why but I assume it’s related to the shielding in the mic or something. Anyways, I really want a pair of ribbons, and my understanding is there aren’t really any transformerless ribbon designs, and I’m wondering if an active design might be the ticket. The AEA N22s and N8s are at the top of the list, along with the active Samar offerings. Anyone have any direct experience with these mics in a situation that struggles with EMI?
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jan 8, 2023 13:55:09 GMT -6
Hi all, so I’m looking for a pair of ribbons for their figure 8 strengths; I ordered a pair of stagers and unfortunately their transformer design was picking up a bad buzz in my room. This is an issue with certain transformer mics, while others are completely fine. I can’t figure out why but I assume it’s related to the shielding in the mic or something. Anyways, I really want a pair of ribbons, and my understanding is there aren’t really any transformerless ribbon designs, and I’m wondering if an active design might be the ticket. The AEA N22s and N8s are at the top of the list, along with the active Samar offerings. Anyone have any direct experience with these mics in a situation that struggles with EMI? The shell of most mics would attenuate EMI fields by 60db+. My opinion is that it's not the transformer but the grounding of your location. I believe most active ribbons still use a transformer but put an active driver on the output. The bumblebee active is a good mic as well. |
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 14:04:17 GMT -6
Hi all, so I’m looking for a pair of ribbons for their figure 8 strengths; I ordered a pair of stagers and unfortunately their transformer design was picking up a bad buzz in my room. This is an issue with certain transformer mics, while others are completely fine. I can’t figure out why but I assume it’s related to the shielding in the mic or something. Anyways, I really want a pair of ribbons, and my understanding is there aren’t really any transformerless ribbon designs, and I’m wondering if an active design might be the ticket. The AEA N22s and N8s are at the top of the list, along with the active Samar offerings. Anyone have any direct experience with these mics in a situation that struggles with EMI? The shell of most mics would attenuate EMI fields by 60db+. My opinion is that it's not the transformer but the grounding of your location. I believe most active ribbons still use a transformer but put an active driver on the output. The bumblebee active is a good mic as well. You may very well be right, but I have condenser mics with transformer designs that have no issue; some tube, some fet, while others do. Not sure what else to make of the problem. The reason I was suspecting EMI was that my transformerless mics are consistently whisper quiet. |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jan 8, 2023 14:39:27 GMT -6
A transformer is required even in an active mic. Somewhere I saw a rundown of the amplification problems with such low impedances, fraction of an ohm, and a transformer is still the best method. So it's something about the shielding.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2023 14:50:28 GMT -6
If it’s 60 Hz it is most likely ground, it could still be EMI but odds are it’s ground. Of course it could also be your gain staging an simply how your setting up for the output of the ribbon.
I personally would start at checking your out let’s with one of those $4 outlet anylizer plugs with the LED md you can find at any home center. Best to eliminate a possible problem rather than argue about it.
The other thing is you didn’t say what ribbons have been problematic.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 14:50:55 GMT -6
A transformer is required even in an active mic. Somewhere I saw a rundown of the amplification problems with such low impedances, fraction of an ohm, and a transformer is still the best method. So it's something about the shielding. I don’t know how it works, I’m just going off observation. I recently returned a Soyuz bomblet; I opened it up and it had an exposed toroidal transformer. I know my Soyuz 017 also has a toroidal transformer, but it’s in a can, and doesn’t pickup the same buzz. Also bought a Soyuz 1973; essentially a transformerless Bomblet; no issue. Hence my hypothesis about shielding. But back to ribbons…maybe I just need to try some out and see what happens. |
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 14:53:21 GMT -6
If it’s 60 Hz it is most likely ground, it could still be EMI but odds are it’s ground. Of course it could also be your gain staging an simply how your setting up for the output of the ribbon. I personally would start at checking your out let’s with one of those $4 outlet anylizer plugs with the LED md you can find at any home center. Best to eliminate a possible problem rather than argue about it. The other thing is you didn’t say what ribbons have been problematic. There isn’t much I can do about the grounding issue in my current rental situation. I know the outlet is at least grounded. I’m also right above the circuit breaker which I believe might be the culprit of the EMI. The only ribbons I’ve tried have been a stager SR-2N and a beyer m160. Both had un-useable buzz in my room. |
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 19:02:22 GMT -6
Hi all, so I’m looking for a pair of ribbons for their figure 8 strengths; I ordered a pair of stagers and unfortunately their transformer design was picking up a bad buzz in my room. This is an issue with certain transformer mics, while others are completely fine. I can’t figure out why but I assume it’s related to the shielding in the mic or something. Anyways, I really want a pair of ribbons, and my understanding is there aren’t really any transformerless ribbon designs, and I’m wondering if an active design might be the ticket. The AEA N22s and N8s are at the top of the list, along with the active Samar offerings. Anyone have any direct experience with these mics in a situation that struggles with EMI? The shell of most mics would attenuate EMI fields by 60db+. My opinion is that it's not the transformer but the grounding of your location. I believe most active ribbons still use a transformer but put an active driver on the output. The bumblebee active is a good mic as well. I appreciate the feedback regarding the grounding. Unfortunately I'm not sure what I can realistically do about it. I work out of an old apartment with crappy power and I've sort of had to work around it till now by finding mics that aren't problematic. It's the sort of buzz that I can minimize by rotating the orientation of the mic (and guitars for that matter) in the room, which I thought was a key indicator of EMI. Is that not necessarily true? |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2023 19:21:03 GMT -6
The shell of most mics would attenuate EMI fields by 60db+. My opinion is that it's not the transformer but the grounding of your location. I believe most active ribbons still use a transformer but put an active driver on the output. The bumblebee active is a good mic as well. I appreciate the feedback regarding the grounding. Unfortunately I'm not sure what I can realistically do about it. I work out of an old apartment with crappy power and I've sort of had to work around it till now by finding mics that aren't problematic. It's the sort of buzz that I can minimize by rotating the orientation of the mic (and guitars for that matter) in the room, which I thought was a key indicator of EMI. Is that not necessarily true? Yeah that makes it more likely an EMI issue and unfortunately probably a harder issue to deal with, probably the best advice I can give is to find a dealer who will work with you to find mics that will work in your situation and one less expensive possible solution, try some Canare L4-e6s mic and line cables. If it’s the cable picking it up and you’re hearing it more because of the gain needed to amplify the ribbons, L4- e6s. Because of EMI and RF issues Canare Starquad is the only analog cable I use in the live rig. If I could find it in the states in anything besides a bulk real I would probably use their Ethernet cable and DMX cable, it would mean the only non Canare cable I use would be power. Oh you will also fall in love with how flexible it is. |
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 8, 2023 19:25:32 GMT -6
I appreciate the feedback regarding the grounding. Unfortunately I'm not sure what I can realistically do about it. I work out of an old apartment with crappy power and I've sort of had to work around it till now by finding mics that aren't problematic. It's the sort of buzz that I can minimize by rotating the orientation of the mic (and guitars for that matter) in the room, which I thought was a key indicator of EMI. Is that not necessarily true? Yeah that makes it more likely an EMI issue and unfortunately probably a harder issue to deal with, probably the best advice I can give is to find a dealer who will work with you to find mics that will work in your situation and one less expensive possible solution, try some Canare L4-e6s mic and line cables. If it’s the cable picking it up and you’re hearing it more because of the gain needed to amplify the ribbons, L4- e6s. Because of EMI and RF issues Canare Starquad is the only analog cable I use in the live rig. If I could find it in the states in anything besides a bulk real I would probably use their Ethernet cable and DMX cable, it would mean the only non Canare cable I use would be power. Oh you will also fall in love with how flexible it is. Thanks for the tips Eric. I got the Stagers through Front End Audio. Maybe they'll work with me to try a few others out. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2023 20:10:40 GMT -6
Yeah that makes it more likely an EMI issue and unfortunately probably a harder issue to deal with, probably the best advice I can give is to find a dealer who will work with you to find mics that will work in your situation and one less expensive possible solution, try some Canare L4-e6s mic and line cables. If it’s the cable picking it up and you’re hearing it more because of the gain needed to amplify the ribbons, L4- e6s. Because of EMI and RF issues Canare Starquad is the only analog cable I use in the live rig. If I could find it in the states in anything besides a bulk real I would probably use their Ethernet cable and DMX cable, it would mean the only non Canare cable I use would be power. Oh you will also fall in love with how flexible it is. Thanks for the tips Eric. I got the Stagers through Front End Audio. Maybe they'll work with me to try a few others out. Anytime Chris, I think EMMR, and most of the other problem solvers here would agree with an interference issue eliminate the cable first, any star quad will be an upgrade, but it was one of the geekiest, picky radio station engineers and close friend (hey he married my receptionist ) who demonstrated if you have EMI or RF problems go Canare. talk to your sales guy and Shoot the guys at Stager a line, some times the manufacturer will be interested in solving your issue or know a solution. |
|
|
|
Post by hadaja on Jan 8, 2023 23:21:58 GMT -6
Samar has the AL95 piston style ribbons. I have found no noise with those and they are cheaper then Stager but sound a little different from them.
|
|
|
|
Post by damoongo on Jan 9, 2023 0:08:12 GMT -6
If the noise changes as you change the orientation of the mic, it's likely EMI.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jan 9, 2023 9:13:33 GMT -6
The shell of most mics would attenuate EMI fields by 60db+. My opinion is that it's not the transformer but the grounding of your location. I believe most active ribbons still use a transformer but put an active driver on the output. The bumblebee active is a good mic as well. I appreciate the feedback regarding the grounding. Unfortunately I'm not sure what I can realistically do about it. I work out of an old apartment with crappy power and I've sort of had to work around it till now by finding mics that aren't problematic. It's the sort of buzz that I can minimize by rotating the orientation of the mic (and guitars for that matter) in the room, which I thought was a key indicator of EMI. Is that not necessarily true? EMI, yes. But how do you think the EMI is affecting the mic? The shell of the mic acts as a shield, but a shield only works if the EMI ingress is shorted away from the system by a low impedance conductor, namely the ground. If the ground is not good then the shell only acts like an antenna.. Dumb question.. Have you tried a different cable? One that you know the shell of the XLR is grounded on both ends? |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jan 9, 2023 10:02:07 GMT -6
This is one of those spots a shell to pin 1 connection could be make or break, though it usually isn't. Someone here just recently commented on a lack of ground in mics making the connection to case unless pin 1 and shell are connected.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jan 9, 2023 10:41:18 GMT -6
Somewhere around here and I think on the purple site, I've shared about specific fixes for Gefell mics. Sounds like it could be similar issues. The fix is super simple. Take pin 1 and ground to the shell of the XLR on the mic end. Easier to do on a Switchcraft plug.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 9, 2023 11:03:56 GMT -6
I appreciate the feedback regarding the grounding. Unfortunately I'm not sure what I can realistically do about it. I work out of an old apartment with crappy power and I've sort of had to work around it till now by finding mics that aren't problematic. It's the sort of buzz that I can minimize by rotating the orientation of the mic (and guitars for that matter) in the room, which I thought was a key indicator of EMI. Is that not necessarily true? EMI, yes. But how do you think the EMI is affecting the mic? The shell of the mic acts as a shield, but a shield only works if the EMI ingress is shorted away from the system by a low impedance conductor, namely the ground. If the ground is not good then the shell only acts like an antenna.. Dumb question.. Have you tried a different cable? One that you know the shell of the XLR is grounded on both ends? It’s certainly worth a try |
|
|
|
Post by chrissweet on Jan 9, 2023 11:17:41 GMT -6
Somewhere around here and I think on the purple site, I've shared about specific fixes for Gefell mics. Sounds like it could be similar issues. The fix is super simple. Take pin 1 and ground to the shell of the XLR on the mic end. Easier to do on a Switchcraft plug. This is the first I’ve heard of this trick. Will definitely look into it. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jan 9, 2023 11:21:30 GMT -6
Somewhere around here and I think on the purple site, I've shared about specific fixes for Gefell mics. Sounds like it could be similar issues. The fix is super simple. Take pin 1 and ground to the shell of the XLR on the mic end. Easier to do on a Switchcraft plug. This is the first I’ve heard of this trick. Will definitely look into it. Found my original post : gearspace.com/board/high-end/111893-gefell-owners-users-what-you-need-know.html |
|
