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Post by ragan on Jan 5, 2023 21:50:16 GMT -6
I work on half bridge, PWM drivers every day. Ones that have to work in much more strenuous and high risk situations than audio amps (they cannot be accessed/repaired if they fail). They are up to the task and not on any kind of “death march”. If they were unreliable, we (and the rest of the engineering world) would not use them.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 6, 2023 5:01:00 GMT -6
I work with half bridge, PWM drivers every day. Ones that have to work in much more strenuous and high risk situations than audio amps (they cannot be accessed/repaired if they fail). They are up to the task and not on any kind of “death march”. If they were unreliable, we (and the rest of the engineering world) would not use them. Hey Ragan, just curious as to what you work with. Totally agree btw. I have friends who’ve had monitors with class D amps running for well over a decade. They almost never turn them off, and they work day in and day out!
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 6, 2023 6:08:23 GMT -6
For reliability, not sure a switching circuit vs. a non-switching circuit is considered more reliable per se? As a complete product I think it comes down to alot of factors of the design and component selection that determines this.
You could flip it also and even look at it this way….. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and some passives too. Class D (as a whole) runs cooler than ClassA/B, so off the bat has some advantage there.
In terms of sound, I much prefer Class A/B for monitoring. The first time i made the switch it was like the lights came on and i could experience/hear audio so much better. Not saying great work cant be done on Class D, just my preference.
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Post by svart on Jan 6, 2023 7:57:21 GMT -6
From an science/engineering perspective, Class D is completely ON. From an implementation perspective (maybe what Dan is referring to), I think the power supplies are completely "on" and the amplification is, at least, %80, THERE. To say otherwise, sounds like Fletcher's sig-quote of "Protools is to audio what flourescence is to light" -- true, in 1990. Not sure what you're saying here. Class D amps have two parts. One is the SMPS portion, which is similar to any other power supply but the power output is scaled for the needs of the second stage, the PWM drive. This creates a series of pulses with widths related to the amount of power in the audio signal. The PWM frequency is much higher than audio frequency and can be analogous to the sampling frequency of a DAC. These pulses are passed through a low-pass filter to average out their powers and smooth it into a sinusoidal wave, also very similar to how a reconstruction filter works on the output of a current-mode DAC. So if there is little or no audio, the pulses are very narrow which means the current consumption is very small, smaller than idle currents of an A/B amp. MOSFETs are very efficient if you switch them quickly. Their ON state is very low resistance so that they do not waste power in heat like BJTs do. Their OFF state is low leakage, so they don't waste heat there either. Only in the transition period do they become quasi-resistive and if you can switch with fast enough speed relative to the audio then you minimize their waste heat during that period as well. Overall, that's why a Class-D with similar powers to an A/B amp can run completely fanless and heatsink-less while the A/B will need significant cooling. It's "ON" but it's also "OFF" during that time too while an A is truly always on and an A/B is lower current for some period of the cycle but still pulling more current during it's idle times than a Class D. One big drawback for Class-D is that as you approach their saturation limits (both the FET pulsewidth and output inductor current) you start getting drastic increases in distortion. One should always overspec a Class-D amp's power by some amount for this reason.
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Post by svart on Jan 6, 2023 8:07:29 GMT -6
For reliability, not sure a switching circuit vs. a non-switching circuit is considered more reliable per se? As a complete product I think it comes down to alot of factors of the design and component selection that determines this. You could flip it also and even look at it this way….. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and some passives too. Class D (as a whole) runs cooler than ClassA/B, so off the bat has some advantage there. In terms of sound, I much prefer Class A/B for monitoring. The first time i made the switch it was like the lights came on and i could experience/hear audio so much better. Not saying great work cant be done on Class D, just my preference. With power supplies, there is always some kind of pulse. For AC it's the rectified AC that still pulses. For SMPS it's the rectified AC and then usually a PWM pulse in the secondary. SMPS can be a bit harder on caps, but overall SMPS is by far the more used devices in the world now so it's why we see more failures of them. Heat below Tj (silicon junction temperature limit) will NOT damage an IC. They're designed to work at pretty high temps and the minerals, metals and chemicals used to make the chips are generally all high melting point. Typical Tj for a part might be 125C+. Using the part ABOVE Tj will likely kill it over time as the metal bond wires at the die level will likely disintegrate first. The same can't be said for electrolytic caps. They have a finite lifespan, but contrary to a lot of thoughts out there, most quality brand caps can last decades or more unless abused. Excess heat in any form will destroy them faster. Heat can be externally applied or pulse currents in excess of their rating can cause internal heating that will degrade the electrolyte and cause further internal heating. Replacing caps in older equipment seems like normal maintenance but that's mostly because older electrolytic caps were of inferior quality and technology. Also, as I mentioned before, tube amps tended to only half-wave rectify so the caps needed to handle high average DC voltage plus high AC ripple at the same time which is generally not a great design practice, and resulted in caps needing to be replaced fairly often. Similar to how tubes should technically work for a lifetime, but we run them very hot and in ways that abuse them that shorten their lives in return for tone.
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Post by christopher on Jan 6, 2023 10:58:35 GMT -6
Its awesome to have an expert who has built these designs, thanks Svart! I'm learning a lot.
I think its interesting that Class D only started taking over when SMD and pick/place took over. And the same time some places started doing multi-layer PCB's where the circuit is hard to figure out. Size of layout shrank, and cost shrinks, next its the heatsink where they cut way back since Class D runs less hot. I just read that an amp for each channel in a consumer device is down to a 10cm square, so they can cram multi-channel surround easily into designs.
From a high performance perspective, why are they using off the shelf plate amps? Why not fully discrete (except for ICs) through hole repairable amps if Class D truly holds the performance edge?
(What I mean is.. shouldn’t we have discreet class D amps? Is there a plate amp PCB out there that high end manufacturers could reach to instead of the prefab stuff?)
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 6, 2023 11:47:54 GMT -6
Its awesome to have an expert who has built these designs, thanks Svart! I'm learning a lot. I think its interesting that Class D only started taking over when SMD and pick/place took over. And the same time some places started doing multi-layer PCB's where the circuit is hard to figure out. Size of layout shrank, and cost shrinks, next its the heatsink where they cut way back since Class D runs less hot. I just read that an amp for each channel in a consumer device is down to a 10cm square, so they can cram multi-channel surround easily into designs. From a high performance perspective, why are they using off the shelf plate amps? Why not fully discrete (except for ICs) through hole repairable amps if Class D truly holds the performance edge? (What I mean is.. shouldn’t we have discreet class D amps? Is there a plate amp PCB out there that high end manufacturers could reach to instead of the prefab stuff?) Most speaker builders are not amp builders, the cheap plate amps are just easy. Honestly if they were doing A/AB it would be the cheapest as well. The only 2 who I can think of in the pro world who have not are ATC and except for a few exceptions Quested who uses MC2 as their OEM. The other thing is that with a cool running class D you don’t have a giant heat source inducing even more power compression.
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Post by svart on Jan 6, 2023 13:27:37 GMT -6
Its awesome to have an expert who has built these designs, thanks Svart! I'm learning a lot. I think its interesting that Class D only started taking over when SMD and pick/place took over. And the same time some places started doing multi-layer PCB's where the circuit is hard to figure out. Size of layout shrank, and cost shrinks, next its the heatsink where they cut way back since Class D runs less hot. I just read that an amp for each channel in a consumer device is down to a 10cm square, so they can cram multi-channel surround easily into designs. From a high performance perspective, why are they using off the shelf plate amps? Why not fully discrete (except for ICs) through hole repairable amps if Class D truly holds the performance edge? (What I mean is.. shouldn’t we have discreet class D amps? Is there a plate amp PCB out there that high end manufacturers could reach to instead of the prefab stuff?) Well, I'm no "expert" but the technology is similar to stuff I've done that I understand what it's doing in more detail than others. SMD probably took over because of the amount of parts needed to support the design architecture and the intended physical size. I'm sure you could do a through-hole Class D amp but it would be huge! Let's face it, it's a budgetary concern too. SMD is easily stuffed by machines. Through-hole isn't. When you do find through-hole machines in the industry, the cost per-part is much higher to the point where it can actually be cheaper to do through-hole by hand. On the other hand, there's also an IC vs. discrete performance disparity too. ICs can do things like standardize timings that would see tolerance issues outside of the IC in the discrete world. There's a situation when switching your FETs where you want one FET turning OFF at a known instance in time while the next FET is turning ON. You need these timings to be VERY close to each other for efficiency's sake, but NOT overlapping as they would essentially "fight" each other in a condition known as "shoot-through". While you could certainly design your discrete circuit to have a known timing, the tolerance between discrete parts could cause the timing window to be much, much wider (or even narrower) than you anticipate. Trace lengths need to be tuned, parts need to be selected, extra testing needs to be done on each unit at production. All things that add unnecessary costs to a design for very little payoff for the producing company. As was brought up before, there's few folks out there equipped and willing to even try repairing something of this complexity (although it can be done!) so designing for serviceability is rarely considered. Companies also don't want folks messing with stuff like this because a poor repair can cause more damage to the product and to reputations... Anyway, I don't think that Class-D has a "performance" edge in terms of fidelity. Apples and oranges in that regard. What it does have is a performance edge in terms of heat dissipation and size for the fidelity. As you've noted, a multi-hundred watt Class-D amp can be TINY and not need significant heat control and still have enough fidelity to compete with others. That's where Class-D really shines.
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Post by plinker on Jan 6, 2023 13:56:03 GMT -6
From an science/engineering perspective, Class D is completely ON. From an implementation perspective (maybe what Dan is referring to), I think the power supplies are completely "on" and the amplification is, at least, %80, THERE. To say otherwise, sounds like Fletcher's sig-quote of "Protools is to audio what flourescence is to light" -- true, in 1990. Not sure what you're saying here. <snip> I'm sorry -- I understand Class D, I was just doing a poor job of saying that I think Class D is legit -- "game on". I'm totally into it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 7:06:36 GMT -6
Not sure what you're saying here. Class D amps have two parts. One is the SMPS portion, which is similar to any other power supply but the power output is scaled for the needs of the second stage, the PWM drive. That's not how I remember it, you can have analogue controlled Class D with linear power supplies, SMPS is not required and those who refer to this as "digital amplification" is also wrong. On a quick side note Class D AC is cool, it generally has less distortion and lower output impedance. Anyway, SMPS means switched mode power supply and as you sort of said it's a replacement for traditional bulky linears, SMPS regulates the output voltage like the output stage of a class D. Because of that they are far more efficient and weigh less.. SMPS has become popular for other reasons though, they maintain output levels under different loads and with advanced filtering can be on par with any linear in terms of ripple voltage and have zero switching noise (if done right), yes they do eminate a lot of RFI radiation but it's not that difficult to sort out. You can't keep load from dropping with a non regulated linear and a basic RC is just not on the same level. The problem with SMPS is it just outright hard clips whereas linear soft clips, linear drops the voltage as current increases when it approaches its limit, although the ripple also increases so you just end up increasing the amount of capacitance. We used to build or get supplies from OEM network suppliers for very expensive video conferencing or live production systems. Its been a while though (I've started to move out of audio completely because of money) so this has been a nice refresher, thanks.
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