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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 15:07:36 GMT -6
This type of deep audio tech is beyond my expertise but I'm learning a lot from listening (reading) you guys. So I wanna throw this out there. I hear some of you saying Class D amps are still born to die. Dan @tomegatherion recently quoted a friend as saying the following... "Okay my tech friend who is an engineer says the ti chip amp based class d modules in the KRKs dying probably had nothing to do with iffy capacitors if it turns on. All class D amps and thus switch mode power supplies are on a death march from the moment they’re turned on. There’s nothing “greener” about them. 5 years is the absolute maximum lifespan and a couple years is the average according to him. Expensive monitors with them are not worth buying.
When I showed him a picture of the Pascal based plate amps and dsp module in the Dynaudio Core 7 his response was “Craptacular”
“Class D amps begin to die the moment they're powered on. High frequency switching transistors in power applications causes gate degradation."" So this guy's thinking aligns with everything I've always heard, but is it still accurate? The Lyd 48's are Class D and have been out for a while and I haven't yet heard stories of these things just dying at 5 years. It seems hard to imagine that the newer Core would be less reliable. [Side note, which is worse... "craptastic" or "craptacular?" I'm going with "craptacular."] I hear others of you say that, as with many things in audio, Class D is way better than it used to be. Why? And how do we know this? Is it better AND more reliable than it used to be or just better? This thread is meant to be a conversation starter. Let it fly boys! I'm here to learn... (Paging ericn)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 15:30:33 GMT -6
Load of rubbish, I've had the LYD's nearly six years and they're still going strong, Ragan had them before me I believe. I know someone who bought Geithain's with their RL Class D and they've had theirs well over a decade. Klaus Heinz (HEDD / ADAM) has stated on more than one occasion that a modern class D amp can go toe to toe with a Class A nowaday's..
Besides some very early oopsies I've yet to see any technical evidence that a modern class D is actually worse. Although I'm always happy to learn something new so bring on the scientific examples.
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 15:47:54 GMT -6
You can’t define a class of amp simply by the Class, I have heard some high dollar Class D that I like and a few home builds that were nice as well. I also have heard class A builds that sounded like crap, Yet I’m sitting here in 40 degree weather with the AC on because a giant class A amp is heating the room. 99% percent of Generic OEM Class D plate amps suck, sorry they do they are price point pieces all about the spec sheet wars not quality, now the Typical AB at the same price sucks as well, it will lack the power, probably number of channels DSP and still suck. The next Question is in a Small studio is do I need all that power? Really? In a monitor situations I want an amp as good as my mic pre’s ! Yeah I’m willing to pay for it!
The other thing is not all the same , Some like Hypex, others ICE, not Every live class D is a Powersoft or home amp a Bel Canto.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 15:53:26 GMT -6
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 15:54:54 GMT -6
You can’t define a class of amp simply by the Class, I have heard some high dollar Class D that I like and a few home builds that were nice as well. I also have heard class A builds that sounded like crap, Yet I’m sitting here in 40 degree weather with the AC on because a giant class A amp is heating the room. 99% percent of Generic OEM Class D plate amps suck, sorry they do they are price point pieces all about the spec sheet wars not quality, now the Typical AB at the same price sucks as well, it will lack the power, probably number of channels DSP and still suck. The next Question is in a Small studio is do I need all that power? Really? In a monitor situations I want an amp as good as my mic pre’s ! Yeah I’m willing to pay for it! The other thing is not all the same , Some like Hypex, others ICE, not Every live class D is a Powersoft or home amp a Bel Canto. But is that new? Is it only recently that manufacturers started making high quality Class D amps? Because the perception that Class D is, at a minimum, less reliable and less repairable is certainly not limited to Dan's friend.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 15:55:32 GMT -6
I actually read that right before I posted this! Super helpful in understanding how the different types work.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 16:10:22 GMT -6
You can’t define a class of amp simply by the Class, I have heard some high dollar Class D that I like and a few home builds that were nice as well. I also have heard class A builds that sounded like crap, Yet I’m sitting here in 40 degree weather with the AC on because a giant class A amp is heating the room. 99% percent of Generic OEM Class D plate amps suck, sorry they do they are price point pieces all about the spec sheet wars not quality, now the Typical AB at the same price sucks as well, it will lack the power, probably number of channels DSP and still suck. The next Question is in a Small studio is do I need all that power? Really? In a monitor situations I want an amp as good as my mic pre’s ! Yeah I’m willing to pay for it! The other thing is not all the same , Some like Hypex, others ICE, not Every live class D is a Powersoft or home amp a Bel Canto. But is that new? Is it only recently that manufacturers started making high quality Class D amps? Because the perception that Class D is, at a minimum, less reliable and less repairable is certainly not limited to Dan's friend. The rep is based on the cheapest builds, in the pro touring world Powersoft and Lab Gruppen CLass D have been some the standards for at least 15 years, Highend Consumer Jeff Roland and BEL CANTO just as long. In the non Digital world Class H had the same rep based on cheap crap, Have seen crest 8001’s on major tours since the late 80’s.
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Post by svart on Jan 5, 2023 16:15:23 GMT -6
This type of deep audio tech is beyond my expertise but I'm learning a lot from listening (reading) you guys. So I wanna throw this out there. I hear some of you saying Class D amps are still born to die. Dan @tomegatherion recently quoted a friend as saying the following... "Okay my tech friend who is an engineer says the ti chip amp based class d modules in the KRKs dying probably had nothing to do with iffy capacitors if it turns on. All class D amps and thus switch mode power supplies are on a death march from the moment they’re turned on. There’s nothing “greener” about them. 5 years is the absolute maximum lifespan and a couple years is the average according to him. Expensive monitors with them are not worth buying.
When I showed him a picture of the Pascal based plate amps and dsp module in the Dynaudio Core 7 his response was “Craptacular”
“Class D amps begin to die the moment they're powered on. High frequency switching transistors in power applications causes gate degradation."" So this guy's thinking aligns with everything I've always heard, but is it still accurate? The Lyd 48's are Class D and have been out for a while and I haven't yet heard stories of these things just dying at 5 years. It seems hard to imagine that the newer Core would be less reliable. [Side note, which is worse... "craptastic" or "craptacular?" I'm going with "craptacular."] I hear others of you say that, as with many things in audio, Class D is way better than it used to be. Why? And how do we know this? Is it better AND more reliable than it used to be or just better? This thread is meant to be a conversation starter. Let it fly boys! I'm here to learn... (Paging ericn ) I know Dan has an axe to grind on Class D.. I'm trying to be civil here but it's absolutely false about gate degradation, etc. Class D amps are technically the same thing as a half-bridge motor controllers and they are used in millions of products for decades and decades now (I should know, I designed them for a few years). The pitfalls are known to a point where simple rules of thumb are used by most. There are ZERO engineers designing PWM controllers to fail. Failures cost money for everyone. I deal with it every day in the design world. There's some kind of universal belief that bean-counters rule the engineering world (and there are definitely cost analysis done, etc) but for the most part there isn't a bunch of non-engineers dictating the parts used, even in China. I deal with chinese production all the time and can say that even the worst production facilities are putting the part choices on the engineers simply for blame-shifting's sake. That said, ANY capacitor taking significant pulse currents will eventually dry up and fail. We see it in analog power supplies and we see it in SMPS power supplies. Old tube guitar amps need recaps because they were the WORST at hard ripple currents across the caps yet we just take that as "normal" lifespan and nobody complains about it, yet it's practically identical in failure modes.. However, when a SMPS fails because the caps take the same beating, "it's crap" is the general consensus. My take is that it's because it's a complex system that is hard to understand at a high level and even harder to understand the nuances in the details of, so folks just don't "get" it. Some WILL die because the caps being used aren't up to the long-term task. Most will be FINE for a decade+. Caps are RATED for ripple and most even openly specify if they are "for SMPS" or general purpose. The only drawback is that Class D amps tend to increase in distortion the closer you get to their saturation currents, aka; the max power output. That's why folks tend to over-spec their class-D amps a bit so that they never reach a higher distortion level.
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Post by Quint on Jan 5, 2023 16:27:11 GMT -6
My Class D Dynaudio BM5As are about 20 years old at this point and still going strong like the day I bought them, for whatever that's worth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 16:31:56 GMT -6
But is that new? Is it only recently that manufacturers started making high quality Class D amps? Because the perception that Class D is, at a minimum, less reliable and less repairable is certainly not limited to Dan's friend. Just an edit here: This is what CAN happen in a less than ideal design, not what will happen. There's plenty of technical documentation on the subject..
They are certainly more complicated. PWM's can cause quality issues with low frequency reproduction, some got around it by using different amps like a class A on the sub or mid, badly designed output filters (L-C) can cause some pretty nasty reliability issues and SMPS designs can reduce headroom. Although this isn't exactly unknown and we're not talking about low end monitors with generic OEM's here. The Core's, KII's, D&D's etc. cost a fortune. The only amp type with problems is Class B, the rest are fine.
There is no way you need the amount of power these sorts of monitors throw out, what's the Core 59's again? 1150 (500 / 500 / 150) watt in total? We're not talking about volume here, obviously. (Size, quality, quantity, imp, dispersion etc. etc.) but no matter how you look at it those amps are not going to be stressed in a near / mid position like ever.. They've got bags of headroom. When you compare it to the LYD-48, (80 / 50 / 50) there's a fair bit of difference. Hmmm..
Is this new? No, but of course more efficient cheaper designs develop as tech progresses just like mic's etc. but again we're not talking about cheap monitors here.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 5, 2023 16:38:14 GMT -6
If you are curious, here’s that vid about the 48’s that failed, can’t say how these were used or possibly overdriven ?
Maybe Dyn limits the bass extension/volume due to the class D distortion near/at their max ?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 16:43:46 GMT -6
That said, ANY capacitor taking significant pulse currents will eventually dry up and fail. We see it in analog power supplies and we see it in SMPS power supplies. Old tube guitar amps need recaps because they were the WORST at hard ripple currents across the caps yet we just take that as "normal" lifespan and nobody complains about it, yet it's practically identical in failure modes.. However, when a SMPS fails because the caps take the same beating, "it's crap" is the general consensus. My take is that it's because it's a complex system that is hard to understand at a high level and even harder to understand the nuances in the details of, so folks just don't "get" it. This is a really interesting point. I actually just had a bunch of work done on a Fender Deluxe I've owned for 25 years. Second time I've had it re-capped. Didn't think twice about it. But the difference is that any schmo at a decent guitar shop can get my tube amp back and running in a few days. Not the same with a capacitor in a digitally controlled near field monitor, right?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 16:46:26 GMT -6
If you are curious, here’s that vid about the 48’s that failed, can’t say how these were used or possibly overdriven ? Maybe Dyn limits the bass extension/volume due to the class D distortion near/at their max ? The problem with the internet and discussions of reliability is often if you trace all the reports down it comes down to an ample size of one example, statistically insignificant. But if repeated a 100 times it appears significant.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 5, 2023 17:00:13 GMT -6
I just thought this interesting as he has other large monitors, so I wondered if he ignored the Dyn caution and drove them loud with the extended bass ?
I don’t see a lot about dyn failures ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 17:07:15 GMT -6
I'm not wading into this flame war. I trust my techs. They're all disposable unlike most class ab non chip amps. I've said my part. Bye.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 17:16:17 GMT -6
This is a really interesting point. I actually just had a bunch of work done on a Fender Deluxe I've owned for 25 years. Second time I've had it re-capped. Didn't think twice about it. But the difference is that any schmo at a decent guitar shop can get my tube amp back and running in a few days. Not the same with a capacitor in a digitally controlled near field monitor, right? What's the difference between a cap in a MIC, SMT Neve or a monitor? Bear with me here because it's a technical rabbit hole, whatever their core function is (like coupling caps or crossovers requiring various sizes etc.), it's still just a bunch of capacitors. The only potential destroyer is the DSP algorithms used for driver phase alignment etc. if wherever that gets stored dies unless the manufacturer can repair it they're useless. However DSP, NVRAM chipsets and other microcontrollers hardly ever seem to go wrong. I've seen multiple instances of them lasting 30+ years, I'd be more worried about you than the monitors. ..
Svart makes a great point as per usual, the dilalectric "gel" does run dry but this isn't restricted to class D amps. Just about any electronic devices out there..
P.S I still would probably avoid taking them to a guitar shop though, that's just a tidbit of advice.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 17:34:52 GMT -6
I'm not wading into this flame war. I trust my techs. They're all disposable unlike most class ab non chip amps. I've said my part. Bye. Haha... not meant as a flame war! Really meant to spur debate. Your tech is not alone, I am (was?) biased against Class D myself but I don't as much knowledge as you guys to really even understand the difference. To me, the less complicated/fewer parts something has... the better. As a non-engineer, it just intuitively seems like switching an amp on and off thousands (millions?) of times might wear it out. I don't know, that's probably the lamest way to explain how Class D works but that's what I got!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 17:36:47 GMT -6
This is a really interesting point. I actually just had a bunch of work done on a Fender Deluxe I've owned for 25 years. Second time I've had it re-capped. Didn't think twice about it. But the difference is that any schmo at a decent guitar shop can get my tube amp back and running in a few days. Not the same with a capacitor in a digitally controlled near field monitor, right? What's the difference between a cap in a MIC, SMT Neve or a monitor? Bear with me here because it's a technical rabbit hole, whatever their core function is (like coupling caps or crossovers requiring various sizes etc.), it's still just a bunch of capacitors. The only potential destroyer is the DSP algorithms used for driver phase alignment etc. if wherever that gets stored dies unless the manufacturer can repair it they're useless. However DSP, NVRAM chipsets and other microcontrollers hardly ever seem to go wrong. I've seen multiple instances of them lasting 30+ years, I'd be more worried about you than the monitors. ..
Svart makes a great point as per usual, the dilalectric "gel" does run dry but this isn't restricted to class D amps. Just about any electronic devices out there..
P.S I still would probably avoid taking them to a guitar shop though, that's just a tidbit of advice.
You're not taking your Core 59's to Banjo Mart for a quick tune up?
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Post by Ward on Jan 5, 2023 17:37:18 GMT -6
So . . . powered monitors
are the built in amps predominately Class D these days?
P.S. Someone had to bring it up!!
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 17:38:28 GMT -6
So . . . powered monitors are the built in amps predominately Class D these days? P.S. Someone had to bring it up!! Almost all.
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Post by Ward on Jan 5, 2023 17:39:27 GMT -6
So . . . powered monitors are the built in amps predominately Class D these days? P.S. Someone had to bring it up!! Almost all.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 17:41:23 GMT -6
But my 2 favorites have not umm Switched for the most part.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 17:41:25 GMT -6
You're not taking your Core 59's to Banjo Mart for a quick tune up? I could give it a try but as soon as the hammer and chisel come out you'll see a shadow shaped hole in the wall with an imprint of the 59's.
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Post by svart on Jan 5, 2023 18:04:40 GMT -6
That said, ANY capacitor taking significant pulse currents will eventually dry up and fail. We see it in analog power supplies and we see it in SMPS power supplies. Old tube guitar amps need recaps because they were the WORST at hard ripple currents across the caps yet we just take that as "normal" lifespan and nobody complains about it, yet it's practically identical in failure modes.. However, when a SMPS fails because the caps take the same beating, "it's crap" is the general consensus. My take is that it's because it's a complex system that is hard to understand at a high level and even harder to understand the nuances in the details of, so folks just don't "get" it. This is a really interesting point. I actually just had a bunch of work done on a Fender Deluxe I've owned for 25 years. Second time I've had it re-capped. Didn't think twice about it. But the difference is that any schmo at a decent guitar shop can get my tube amp back and running in a few days. Not the same with a capacitor in a digitally controlled near field monitor, right? They technically could! The problem being the thing I described, it seems overly complicated to someone who doesn't work with them. But with anything, time and experience can alleviate that. Overall failures might be more complicated if more than one part fails though.
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Post by plinker on Jan 5, 2023 20:23:58 GMT -6
From an science/engineering perspective, Class D is completely ON.
From an implementation perspective (maybe what Dan is referring to), I think the power supplies are completely "on" and the amplification is, at least, %80, THERE.
To say otherwise, sounds like Fletcher's sig-quote of "Protools is to audio what flourescence is to light" -- true, in 1990.
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