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Post by phdamage on Jan 5, 2023 9:59:41 GMT -6
www.wavealchemy.co.uk/product/pulse/anyone see/try this? banner ad up at the purple site. I normally ignore these things, but I loved the PCM60. gonna demo for sure. Though, this must have been done already, no?
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Post by bgrotto on Jan 5, 2023 10:15:07 GMT -6
Oh man, I LOVED the PCM60. What a great box. The perfect balance of simplicity of use and great sound.
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Post by drbill on Jan 5, 2023 10:21:27 GMT -6
I never really loved the 60 when I had it. The only place I used it was on the small rooms. That was really great. The rest of it was meh for me.
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Post by notneeson on Jan 5, 2023 11:44:57 GMT -6
Not a big fan of the PCM60 vs plugins. Same for the PCM70 we had, honestly. It was cool, but a very long way from something I can’t live without. Even the chambers at Hyde Street are pretty interchangeable with plugins when I go back to projects where I got to use them but had to recut certain things offsite later on.
I’ll tell you what though, the real chamber got the band excited and that definitely matters.
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Post by Ward on Jan 5, 2023 11:48:56 GMT -6
Had the 60 and 70. Both sounded kind of guitar-amp springy IRL. Will the plugin sound like that?
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Post by M57 on Jan 5, 2023 13:27:06 GMT -6
The PCM60 was my first reverb. I probably bought it within the year from when it came out; used it with my Fostex 8-track until my first digital box somewhere in the 90's. Never used it again. Sold it 4 or 5 years ago for decent money and don't miss it one bit. I seem to recall it thick and hairy with a noise floor that drove me nuts. The only reason I'd consider buying the plugin would be to remind myself how much better off I am without it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 13:38:19 GMT -6
Had the 60 and 70. Both sounded kind of guitar-amp springy IRL. Will the plugin sound like that? 60 and 70 were the boxes that taught me even with pro level EFX boxes always bring them back through a channel not an EFX return. They needed EQ and a bit of Dynamics or yeah they sounded like guitar boxes. They also fall in that camp wher most people just used presets. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 14:04:13 GMT -6
Can someone explain why Lexicon, TC Electronic, etc can't just release all their reverbs as plugins? Is it just a matter of not devaluing their hardware? It's all digital, shouldn't be hard right?
Example... I want to know why my beat up little TC Electronic M300 that I've had for 20 years (and was cheap then) sounds so much better than plugins that cost $200. Why don't the grandfathers of reverb just release all their old algorithms for $50/pop and clean up?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 14:41:31 GMT -6
Can someone explain why Lexicon, TC Electronic, etc can't just release all their reverbs as plugins? Is it just a matter of not devaluing their hardware? It's all digital, shouldn't be hard right? Example... I want to know why my beat up little TC Electronic M300 that I've had for 20 years (and was cheap then) sounds so much better than plugins that cost $200. Why don't the grandfathers of reverb just release all their old algorithms for $50/pop and clean up? Lexicon doesn’t have the original code for some products, I get the feeling with Lexicon now being 99% consumer Samsung doesn’t know what to do with Lex and the pro heritage and unless They form a dedicated studio software division they will simply take licensing requests. All of Harman old software assets seam to either be used in either automotive or, HiQNET install control / Audio over Ethernet. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 14:53:39 GMT -6
Can someone explain why Lexicon, TC Electronic, etc can't just release all their reverbs as plugins? Is it just a matter of not devaluing their hardware? It's all digital, shouldn't be hard right? Example... I want to know why my beat up little TC Electronic M300 that I've had for 20 years (and was cheap then) sounds so much better than plugins that cost $200. Why don't the grandfathers of reverb just release all their old algorithms for $50/pop and clean up? Lexicon doesn’t have the original code for some products, I get the feeling with Lexicon now being 99% consumer Samsung doesn’t know what to do with Lex and the pro heritage and unless They form a dedicated studio software division they will simply take licensing requests. All of Harman old software assets seam to either be used in either automotive or, HiQNET install control / Audio over Ethernet. What about TC? Aren't they owned by Behringer? Instead of ripping everyone else's code off, why not just repackage code they already own? Maybe that's too foreign of a concept for them. They've been in the thieving business for so long they don't even know how to sell something legitimately. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 5, 2023 15:52:56 GMT -6
Lexicon doesn’t have the original code for some products, I get the feeling with Lexicon now being 99% consumer Samsung doesn’t know what to do with Lex and the pro heritage and unless They form a dedicated studio software division they will simply take licensing requests. All of Harman old software assets seam to either be used in either automotive or, HiQNET install control / Audio over Ethernet. What about TC? Aren't they owned by Behringer? Instead of ripping everyone else's code off, why not just repackage code they already own? Maybe that's too foreign of a concept for them. They've been in the thieving business for so long they don't even know how to sell something legitimately. I don’t know as much about TC, Music Group as Lexicon. They have tried to release a few well regarded plugin reissues with dedicated controllers. I think they maybe rethinking the approach because while the controllers are great 100 different controllers is a dealbreaker! |
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Post by jmoose on Jan 5, 2023 16:17:02 GMT -6
What about TC? Aren't they owned by Behringer? Instead of ripping everyone else's code off, why not just repackage code they already own? Maybe that's too foreign of a concept for them. They've been in the thieving business for so long they don't even know how to sell something legitimately. This has been talked about endlessly over the years and basically, its kinda like asking why can't we build pyramids anymore. How did we as a society "forget" that piece of knowledge? Nobody knows but the bottom line is its gone. TC has the same problem as Lexicon in that not only are the people who wrote all the code & created these things dead but the company itself is a zombie and a shadow of its former self. Offices closed, consolidated several times over and no way back. Probably 10 years ago? I had a good conversation with some of the TC folks about "new stuff" and of course the 2290 comes up. That team kinda collectively rolled their eyes... said they're well aware that all anyone wanted from them was a 2290 "klone" - and its basically impossible. If it was possible it would've been done already. That's probably why they've shifted to building $99 disposable guitar pedals. PCM60? I dig 'em in certain applications. Yeah grainy dark & noisy. Sometimes that's what 'ya need. Trashy is a valid sound too. Gotta have contrast. Not interested in a plug version though... in hardware I have 2 Lex MPX1 which have an excellent PCM60 emulation and in plugs the UAD 224 covers all that ground and then some. Maybe if I didn't have that stuff already, not something I'd want as a primary verb but color? Absolutely maybe. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 5, 2023 16:24:28 GMT -6
Lexicon does have plugins that I believe has the code from some of their hardware. The lex plugins are worth it when on sale.
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Post by Ward on Jan 5, 2023 16:43:49 GMT -6
SNIP Probably 10 years ago? I had a good conversation with some of the TC folks about "new stuff" and of course the 2290 comes up. That team kinda collectively rolled their eyes... said they're well aware that all anyone wanted from them was a 2290 "klone" - and its basically impossible. If it was possible it would've been done already. That's probably why they've shifted to building $99 disposable guitar pedals. 2290 you say? How would anyone ever figure out it was just a lo-fi cloning delay with a sloped attack on the repeats? Seriously.... that isn't 'rocket surgery'! Ever use one? I'm sure you have. They didn't wow me. Sounds quality of a midiverb 2. What about the QRS? Now that was a reverb that was REALLY useful and wish it were available in a plugin. Last time I used one was mixing records in 1998-2000. unbeatable at the time. outside a 480. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2023 17:51:18 GMT -6
What about TC? Aren't they owned by Behringer? Instead of ripping everyone else's code off, why not just repackage code they already own? Maybe that's too foreign of a concept for them. They've been in the thieving business for so long they don't even know how to sell something legitimately. This has been talked about endlessly over the years and basically, its kinda like asking why can't we build pyramids anymore. How did we as a society "forget" that piece of knowledge? Nobody knows but the bottom line is its gone. Haha... this basically sums it up. You know what? Now that you mention it the "t" in my T.C. Electronic logo always points perfectly to the Sirius star. Proving without a doubt that quality digital reverb was brought to us by ancient aliens along with stealth technology, rocket boosters, and velcro. No wonder all the great audio gear is made in Germany! Operation Paperclip!!! |
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Post by drbill on Jan 5, 2023 19:14:02 GMT -6
What about the QRS? Now that was a reverb that was REALLY useful and wish it were available in a plugin. . Your wish is a command..... savantaudiolabs.com/product/quantum-2772-evolution/Been jonesing to try this one. Alongside my 50 other reverb plugins... LOL I'm actually kind of surprised no one here has brought it up to discuss. |
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Post by jmoose on Jan 5, 2023 19:57:54 GMT -6
2290 you say? How would anyone ever figure out it was just a lo-fi cloning delay with a sloped attack on the repeats? Seriously.... that isn't 'rocket surgery'! Ever use one? I'm sure you have. They didn't wow me. Sounds quality of a midiverb 2. Sure I've logged hours on the 2290. IMO its a classic for a reason. Overkill for standard delays but it could do some tricks I still can't find in other boxes or plugs. But seriously, if the algorithm was that easy to replicate then someone including TC themselves would've done it already. But that hasn't happened and so here we are going around the campfire once again. Which is as it should be! Instead they told me & the rest of the crew I was with that day... the closest they were ever going to get was the D2 rack delay that had already been out for years. I'll also say that none of the new stuff they talked about has ever come to life. That version of the company is dead. At this point TC lives on like Midas... alive but more or less as a new company with little connection to the flagship pro gear they used to make. And so we today get $99 disposable pedals and glitchy plugs. Whoo hoo progress! |
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Post by Ward on Jan 6, 2023 12:09:47 GMT -6
What about the QRS? Now that was a reverb that was REALLY useful and wish it were available in a plugin. . Your wish is a command..... savantaudiolabs.com/product/quantum-2772-evolution/Been jonesing to try this one. Alongside my 50 other reverb plugins... LOL I'm actually kind of surprised no one here has brought it up to discuss. If we don't stop sharing the brain, we'll never have an argument. Ugh!! |
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Post by drbill on Jan 6, 2023 12:17:57 GMT -6
If we don't stop sharing the brain, we'll never have an argument. Ugh!! Haha! Maybe we should start a new thread. Surely SOMEbody here has tried it. I was on end of year sales for $69. I should have jumped on it..... |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 6, 2023 12:25:41 GMT -6
If we don't stop sharing the brain, we'll never have an argument. Ugh!! Haha! Maybe we should start a new thread. Surely SOMEbody here has tried it. I was on end of year sales for $69. I should have jumped on it..... Yeah, I was really tempted and I still am even at $99 |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 6, 2023 14:46:25 GMT -6
I had a PCM 60, bought it the first week it came out. It was revelation to hear that quality reverb at home. I believe it was $1500 at the time. In 2023 money, that's $4,150. It listed for $4,800. Between, the 7th Heaven, EMT-140, Relab XL480, Sound Toys Plate, Exponential reverbs, Valhalla, and a few other reverb plug-ins I have, I think having a PCM 60 plug-in is a little silly unless there's a specific sound you really really want.
I hated the inability to tweak the reverb, and the PCM 70 offered more. At the time it was great to have though. I was writing and producing music for radio and TV commercials then. I used big expensive studios a lot, but with the development of digital reverb, drum machines, and Kurzweil and Proteus, all I needed was a Neumann U87, an RE-20, some 57's, a board, DBX compression, some NS-10's and I could do smaller jobs at home. It was the first time we could get near studio quality sounds at home that were relatively affordable.
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Post by drumsound on Jan 6, 2023 18:05:56 GMT -6
I still have my PCM60, so I've considered getting the demo and A/Bing. But, I'm also lazy.
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Post by seawell on Jan 6, 2023 18:37:14 GMT -6
Does anyone know the story behind losing the code on some of the classics? Was there a fire or something? That just seems so strange.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 19:07:58 GMT -6
The plug is just a convolution. jmoose is right. These companies are mostly dead. It’s like saying England now is the same as it was in 1023 because there’s still a king. This plug is a bunch of irs won’t do any of the crazy non-linear shit or have the sound which was all from the analog parts, nasty old converters, and distortion on the primitive dsp chips trying to run the algorithms. For old reverb sound, I can recommend in no particular order: Eventide SP2016 Reverb plug. Clone of a clone of a clone (like the Softube Chandler plugs  ) but better than that because hey Tony Agnello recreated his own code for the updated SP2016 hardware from Eventide and Princeton digital, they made the old plug of that from the algorithms straight but it just sounded good but not great, and then they redid the plug to run the algorithms like the old hardware at the old weird sample rate, making it sound great. PSP EMT 2445. EMT 244 and 245 algorithms provided by Barry Blesser, who consulted on it and EMT blessed it. I love this plug on snare and guitar. You can jerry rig it into stereo too and it sounds great. Read the manual Goodhertz Megaverb. This is a must buy. Alesis Midiverb II inspired filth but it can be much more hifi and do gated Yamaha SPX 90 madness. You can dial in a lexicony sound but if you want the lexicon, the standard is still Relab LX 480 if you want to sound like Bon Jovi or 90s country or something. It’s cool but why? I’d take the sonsig everyday. I couldn’t afford this until the last couple of years but when I heard the Sonsig, and already had the way more lofi Megaverb, I was like what’s the point? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 19:37:28 GMT -6
2290 you say? How would anyone ever figure out it was just a lo-fi cloning delay with a sloped attack on the repeats? Seriously.... that isn't 'rocket surgery'! Ever use one? I'm sure you have. They didn't wow me. Sounds quality of a midiverb 2. Sure I've logged hours on the 2290. IMO its a classic for a reason. Overkill for standard delays but it could do some tricks I still can't find in other boxes or plugs. But seriously, if the algorithm was that easy to replicate then someone including TC themselves would've done it already. But that hasn't happened and so here we are going around the campfire once again. Which is as it should be! Instead they told me & the rest of the crew I was with that day... the closest they were ever going to get was the D2 rack delay that had already been out for years. I'll also say that none of the new stuff they talked about has ever come to life. That version of the company is dead. At this point TC lives on like Midas... alive but more or less as a new company with little connection to the flagship pro gear they used to make. And so we today get $99 disposable pedals and glitchy plugs. Whoo hoo progress! The newer pedals are glitchy too. I did a record that just came out where the vocalist tracked through a tc electronics digital stomp pedal to cassette. I didn’t advise this and it was tracked before I was brought in. One track, it worked perfectly and I needed no compression on the vocals in the mix. Just a bit of eq because the pedal’s reverb was harsh. The next track, at the same levels same day, the pedal pretty much misfired. The reverb was pumping randomly, compression was off, I think it messed up internally or something and the pumping shit out the tape or output stage in certain parts. Massive gating, compression, and limiting was needed. I had comp words from worse takes to get audible words that hadn't been obliterated. I had to use Oxford dynamics to do it it all with only one vca as a multi-effect to reduce imd. Then I had to automate every word on every track like crazy with Eventide Ompressor plugin on vocal bus acting as a leveler with 1 ms attack and slow release and gain reduction limitation. also same record, bass was tracked through 20+ year old sunn amp and cab for most of the tracks. The track with the misfiring tc pedal was tracked through a Behringer combo that was lying around when the old Sunn rig broke. All the sunn stuff needed was eq and a bit of compression. The Behringer bs? They would have been better DIing. That one track needed to have all these weird bs cut out with Nova, then run into germanium distortion, then digitally reamped through a bunch of tube plugs acting as a head into an ir of an mc930 on an orange cab, eqed, massively compressed, and then a chorus and send to a delay meant for 80s Vangelis style synths just go get a good full sound. Then the melodic parts and not the distorted metal rumble parts had to be manually fader ridden up part by part to match the guitars, which used decent gear. Fuck Uli Behringer. You’re better off using nothing and just playing VSTis than touching his equipment and synths. Or buying real gear because it’s cheaper in the long run than the billable hours needed to cover up the Sonic abominations from his awful equipment. There are no gems in the “Music Group”. It’s all bad. People are copers and want to pretend their cheap junk is useful and legitimately okay instead of harmful pieces of shit. Owning nothing is better than owning Behringer. |
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) but better than that because hey Tony Agnello recreated his own code for the updated SP2016 hardware from Eventide and Princeton digital, they made the old plug of that from the algorithms straight but it just sounded good but not great, and then they redid the plug to run the algorithms like the old hardware at the old weird sample rate, making it sound great.