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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 2, 2023 15:57:44 GMT -6
I have a potential gig, could be big, involving immersive sound. I need a crash course on Atmos. I literally known nothing about immersive sound. I don’t necessarily need to be able to mix in Atmos, but I need a deep understanding of it to do this gig right.
Any good resources, YouTube videos, tutorials etc that I should look into? Any recommendations are truly appreciated.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 2, 2023 16:00:31 GMT -6
I have a potential gig, could be big, involving immersive sound. I need a crash course on Atmos. I literally known nothing about immersive sound. I don’t necessarily need to be able to mix in Atmos, but I need a deep understanding of it to do this gig right. Any good resources, YouTube videos, tutorials etc that I should look into? Any recommendations are truly appreciated. Paging @exponentialaudio Michael's done quite a bit of work in this realm, I believe. I think he even posted a video at one point that was a good primer, though I can't remember what the thread was or when. I may be misremembering something about the video, but I know Michael could point you in a good direction. |
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Post by dougwendal on Jan 2, 2023 16:29:47 GMT -6
Here's a video of Dave Way discussing ATMOS.
Mix with the Masters has some good ATMOS tutorials.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 2, 2023 16:37:35 GMT -6
Are you mixing or recording? This is a big subject. Can you be a bit more specific to start the conversation?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 2, 2023 17:05:08 GMT -6
Are you mixing or recording? This is a big subject. Can you be a bit more specific to start the conversation? Fair question…I’m literally learning about the gig as I write this so I don’t have a lot of info yet. But basically a venue needs an on cite audio engineer for an immersive Atmos exhibit. The music is already tracked and mixed (or perhaps sub mixed?). They need some one on-site, I think, as a technical director/audio mixer to make sure everything is playing back right, possibly tuning speaker systems etc. Due to some conflict they need some one next week, so not a lot of time to prepare. To be honest I have very little idea of the what the job is…but I’ve been offered the gig by people who know me very well and know my skill set, both in live sound and in the studio…I just don’t know what I don’t know…not sure what I’m jumping into but I’m doing my due diligence to prepare. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 2, 2023 18:31:50 GMT -6
Are you mixing or recording? This is a big subject. Can you be a bit more specific to start the conversation? Fair question…I’m literally learning about the gig as I write this so I don’t have a lot of info yet. But basically a venue needs an on cite audio engineer for an immersive Atmos exhibit. The music is already tracked and mixed (or perhaps sub mixed?). They need some one on-site, I think, as a technical director/audio mixer to make sure everything is playing back right, possibly tuning speaker systems etc. Due to some conflict they need some one next week, so not a lot of time to prepare. To be honest I have very little idea of the what the job is…but I’ve been offered the gig by people who know me very well and know my skill set, both in live sound and in the studio…I just don’t know what I don’t know…not sure what I’m jumping into but I’m doing my due diligence to prepare. okay, well good news is that won't be too hard providing you have an Atmos capable playback device. What are they using for it? The super cool think about Atmos is it is scalable with playback since it is object based. So long as the files are a true adm file then you have a device to play it back it'll decode it to whatever you have setup. Then it's just a matter of setting up the speakers correctly. If you're just trying to setup speakers and play it back through an audio interface, it'll get a bit more complicated. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2023 19:15:48 GMT -6
Long term an investment in an Atmos system is probably a great idea, but if you haven’t worked in Atmos or don’t understand it from the get go I honestly think you are doing your client and reputation a huge disservice. My goal with any client is to always be the first and last phone call and often that means admitting I can’t do it justice at this point in time. The investment and learning curve to be able to do a great job in Atmos are both quite high, getting it right is going to take time and doing it on the clients dime just seams like a recipe for disaster.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 20:12:05 GMT -6
I have a potential gig, could be big, involving immersive sound. I need a crash course on Atmos. I literally known nothing about immersive sound. I don’t necessarily need to be able to mix in Atmos, but I need a deep understanding of it to do this gig right. Any good resources, YouTube videos, tutorials etc that I should look into? Any recommendations are truly appreciated. Paging @exponentialaudio Michael's done quite a bit of work in this realm, I believe. I think he even posted a video at one point that was a good primer, though I can't remember what the thread was or when. I may be misremembering something about the video, but I know Michael could point you in a good direction. Responding to page. I don't think there's any such thing as a crash course in Atmos. There are some fundamental concepts you have to be familiar with and they're very different from dealing with channel-based mixing, whether stereo or 5.1. The more you know about it, the more different it is. I'd concur that Ceri Thomas's many tutorials are a good place to start, but there's really no substitute for getting your hands dirty. Working in stereo with phones or earbuds will at least help you visualize, but in the end there's no substitute for dropping some serious coin on at least a 7.1.4 monitoring system. It also matters whether you're recording the gig, mixing it, or both. Genre also matters. While I've mixed some pop stuff for fun, what you do is very different. A pop mix, with sources spaced all over (and some flying around) can be nice and tasteful. The classical world I mainly live in is different. Occasionally you'll have some source stuff in the wings or up above, but generally-speaking you're trying to get an audience-perspective sense of the room. A good rule of thumb if you're recording a gig for Atmos is to make sure you have a good stereo mic setup as a base. A more widely-spaced A/B pair is next and a few height mics comes after that. You may not use all the mics for the stereo mix, bu at least you'll have them for your own experiments in learning immersive. I'm really sorry but quick-and-dirty doesn't apply to Atmos any more than it does for stereo. It's not at all hard to do once you know how it works, but you do have some work to get there. There's some stuff on my web page (michaelcarnes.net) about a Jason Hardink piano session that will give you an example of my mic placement for a solo piano session. I hope it's useful, but everyone has a different approach. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 2, 2023 20:31:09 GMT -6
Long term an investment in an Atmos system is probably a great idea, but if you haven’t worked in Atmos or don’t understand it from the get go I honestly think you are doing your client and reputation a huge disservice. My goal with any client is to always be the first and last phone call and often that means admitting I can’t do it justice at this point in time. The investment and learning curve to be able to do a great job in Atmos are both quite high, getting it right is going to take time and doing it on the clients dime just seams like a recipe for disaster. Point well taken. This case is perhaps a little unique. Still learning the details so I don’t want to say too much, but the Atmos mix is done, my job is more to make sure the playback goes ok, that no one at the installation screws anything up, to help with acoustics of the space etc etc. The client in this case is an old friend and music colleague, he’s asking me to do the gig as a favor and is aware of my (lack of) experience in the format. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 2, 2023 20:33:53 GMT -6
Paging @exponentialaudio Michael's done quite a bit of work in this realm, I believe. I think he even posted a video at one point that was a good primer, though I can't remember what the thread was or when. I may be misremembering something about the video, but I know Michael could point you in a good direction. Responding to page. I don't think there's any such thing as a crash course in Atmos. There are some fundamental concepts you have to be familiar with and they're very different from dealing with channel-based mixing, whether stereo or 5.1. The more you know about it, the more different it is. I'd concur that Ceri Thomas's many tutorials are a good place to start, but there's really no substitute for getting your hands dirty. Working in stereo with phones or earbuds will at least help you visualize, but in the end there's no substitute for dropping some serious coin on at least a 7.1.4 monitoring system. It also matters whether you're recording the gig, mixing it, or both. Genre also matters. While I've mixed some pop stuff for fun, what you do is very different. A pop mix, with sources spaced all over (and some flying around) can be nice and tasteful. The classical world I mainly live in is different. Occasionally you'll have some source stuff in the wings or up above, but generally-speaking you're trying to get an audience-perspective sense of the room. A good rule of thumb if you're recording a gig for Atmos is to make sure you have a good stereo mic setup as a base. A more widely-spaced A/B pair is next and a few height mics comes after that. You may not use all the mics for the stereo mix, bu at least you'll have them for your own experiments in learning immersive. I'm really sorry but quick-and-dirty doesn't apply to Atmos any more than it does for stereo. It's not at all hard to do once you know how it works, but you do have some work to get there. There's some stuff on my web page (michaelcarnes.net) about a Jason Hardink piano session that will give you an example of my mic placement for a solo piano session. I hope it's useful, but everyone has a different approach. Thanks so much, that’s very helpful. I’m not expecting to learn everything overnight but I’m eager to jump head first into learning the fundamental concepts. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 3, 2023 10:41:14 GMT -6
I'm hearing things about this new fangled quadraphonic stereo stuff.
(I got jokes. I got bad cheesy cornball jokes.)
Atmos blows my mind.
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Post by seawell on Jan 3, 2023 10:59:49 GMT -6
I’ve been working my way through this one for a while, learning along the way:
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 11:09:19 GMT -6
Long term an investment in an Atmos system is probably a great idea, but if you haven’t worked in Atmos or don’t understand it from the get go I honestly think you are doing your client and reputation a huge disservice. My goal with any client is to always be the first and last phone call and often that means admitting I can’t do it justice at this point in time. The investment and learning curve to be able to do a great job in Atmos are both quite high, getting it right is going to take time and doing it on the clients dime just seams like a recipe for disaster. Point well taken. This case is perhaps a little unique. Still learning the details so I don’t want to say too much, but the Atmos mix is done, my job is more to make sure the playback goes ok, that no one at the installation screws anything up, to help with acoustics of the space etc etc. The client in this case is an old friend and music colleague, he’s asking me to do the gig as a favor and is aware of my (lack of) experience in the format. Here is the thing every good Atmos or even 7.1 room I have ever heard has been the result of a lot of tweaking. This is why I would never invest for a designated project. I would always make sure I had time to get it right first, even for QC. The other thing I have noticed is that most Atmos rooms have not invested in what is probably the most common means of consumption, the Atmos Soundbar, think of it as the NS10/ Auratone of the future and when it comes to surround of any kind review on this type of implementation is a must. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 3, 2023 11:18:19 GMT -6
Point well taken. This case is perhaps a little unique. Still learning the details so I don’t want to say too much, but the Atmos mix is done, my job is more to make sure the playback goes ok, that no one at the installation screws anything up, to help with acoustics of the space etc etc. The client in this case is an old friend and music colleague, he’s asking me to do the gig as a favor and is aware of my (lack of) experience in the format. Here is the thing every good Atmos or even 7.1 room I have ever heard has been the result of a lot of tweaking. This is why I would never invest for a designated project. I would always make sure I had time to get it right first, even for QC. The other thing I have noticed is that most Atmos rooms have not invested in what is probably the most common means of consumption, the Atmos Soundbar, think of it as the NS10/ Auratone of the future and when it comes to surround of any kind review on this type of implementation is a must. This is a great point and is why I’m considering just using Logic & my AirPods Max. I didn’t like Atmos mixes much at all on AirPods or Beats Studio headphones but it actually sounds really great on AirPods Max headphones. It’s the highest quality level I could see being mass adopted by the consumer at the moment. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 18, 2023 13:58:40 GMT -6
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 18, 2023 14:11:31 GMT -6
I mean devices like that have been out since 2019. Sound bars and small speakers like that. Most people barely know if it's on or off. Or care.. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 18, 2023 14:19:12 GMT -6
I mean devices like that have been out since 2019. Sound bars and small speakers like that. Most people barely know if it's on or off. Or care.. To be fair though Apple is on a different level and has a history of getting people to adopt things they don't want 🤣 |
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Post by drbill on Jan 18, 2023 14:27:48 GMT -6
And that right there is the crux of the matter. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 18, 2023 16:46:52 GMT -6
And that right there is the crux of the matter. Precisely. drbill, Blackdawg and seawell you're all seeing what I see: We care about immersive sound and are floored by it. The general public just wanna dance, karaoke, play air guitar and bang their heads. How do we reach them? Not through telling them to sit very still in a room surrounded by 13 speakers and just letting the technology speak to them. They want the music to speak to them. We have to communicate on their level. I love atmos. I know very few non-peers who do. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 18, 2023 17:32:18 GMT -6
I'm definitely on board with you guys as far as public interest. I offered to do a couple of Atmos mixes for free just to learn and both artists/bands didn't even know what it was. I worked for Apple for a couple of years in the iTunes support department. As a matter of fact, my first week was when Apple gave everyone that U2 album whether they wanted it or nor...LOL...what a mess that was! As a 20+ year Apple user and a former employee, I've just seen them force their will on people when they think they know what's best for them.
Removing disc drives from computers, hiding the iTunes Store by default once Apple Music took hold, leaving us with only two USB-C ports on current laptops... etc.., etc...
I hope it doesn't happen but I could see them only accepting new music in the Apple Music/iTunes Store that has an immersive version to force more adoption. It wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Post by drbill on Jan 18, 2023 18:09:38 GMT -6
I've just seen them force their will on people when they think they know what's best for them. Hmmmm, where does that sound familiar. LOL. Oops. No politics!!!!  BTW, I love mixing IMAX, 5.1, etc., but my favorite surround mixing thing was mixing for some Disney venues in Tokyo where I was mixing in 24 channel discrete surround, where I could make the audio move across the sonic speaker spectrum with a live singer or musician who moved throughout the venue. Audio followed them. Super fun. There was a highly advanced surround matrix company out of Sierra Madre CA of all places that invented the Tech. I think it was later bought by Meyers. Seriously advanced. Got some fun stories on that gig..... Action shows in Theme Parks can be really fun too. I got accused of blowing up an entire multi-6 figure system at 6 flags once. LOL. I wasn't even on site. But the sound designer didn't want to shoulder the responsibility. Big surround gigs are AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! But yeah, on point - as much as I loved mixing audio only projects on discrete 5.1, the market just did not support it. As overly aggressive as apple is, I don't even think they can budge things. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 18, 2023 18:18:46 GMT -6
I've just seen them force their will on people when they think they know what's best for them. Hmmmm, where does that sound familiar. LOL. Oops. No politics!!!! BTW, I love mixing IMAX, 5.1, etc., but my favorite surround mixing thing was mixing for some Disney venues in Tokyo where I was mixing in 24 channel discrete surround, where I could make the audio move across the sonic speaker spectrum with a live singer or musician who moved throughout the venue. Audio followed them. Super fun. There was a highly advanced surround matrix company out of Sierra Madre CA of all places that invented the Tech. I think it was later bought by Meyers. Seriously advanced. Got some fun stories on that gig..... Action shows in Theme Parks can be really fun too. I got accused of blowing up an entire multi-6 figure system at 6 flags once. LOL. I wasn't even on site. But the sound designer didn't want to shoulder the responsibility. Big surround gigs are AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! But yeah, on point - as much as I loved mixing audio only projects on discrete 5.1, the market just did not support it. As overly aggressive as apple is, I don't even think they can budge things. LOL don’t get me all riled up Bill! Man, that surround mixing sounds like a lot of fun! I reallly hope I’m wrong on the Apple thing 🤞 |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 18, 2023 18:22:57 GMT -6
Apple has already brought Atmos to the attention of a lot of people via streaming it if you have the right headphones. So more people are listening to it(binaurally) and it is getting more traction as Dolby just has been forcing themselves into all kinds of consumer products.
But doesn't mean they know how to work it. Or use it. Or will.
Time will tell. I'd love for it to become more popular. Immersive is awesome.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 18, 2023 18:23:45 GMT -6
Man, I honestly don't know where I'd go experience immersive audio other than the movie theater. One of the big ones (18 theater) locally just closed too....
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Post by drbill on Jan 18, 2023 19:09:30 GMT -6
I'm not a huge atmos expert, but generally, I like discrete formats - not stuff that auto folds down to whatever speaker config you might have. And definitely not to stereo phones. Call me a "discrete" surround snob. LOL
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