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Post by noob on Jan 2, 2023 19:48:43 GMT -6
It all depends on how big the monitors you are stacking on top of the Neumanns are. If they are small, not a huge deal, as long as they aren't too far above your ear holes. If they are bigger and have some low end punch, I'd avoid that personally. If I were you I'd probably pick 2 sets that I like and put them side by side. Top of monitors is usually a place for a grotbox if anything. Little 5" jobs I use to just give my ears a reset. I don't think they'll fit side by side with the Neumann's. I could put one of them on stands but it kind of impedes my access to all my patching. Not the biggest deal either way. I guess the real question is would the monitors on top change the sound of the ones on the bottom. I can't see why they would. Nah that won't impact them much, 5" is fine. You can get a thin strip of foam or even soft rubber to put in between them to lessen any immediate impact. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 8:02:08 GMT -6
It all depends on how big the monitors you are stacking on top of the Neumanns are. If they are small, not a huge deal, as long as they aren't too far above your ear holes. If they are bigger and have some low end punch, I'd avoid that personally. If I were you I'd probably pick 2 sets that I like and put them side by side. Top of monitors is usually a place for a grotbox if anything. Little 5" jobs I use to just give my ears a reset. I don't think they'll fit side by side with the Neumann's. I could put one of them on stands but it kind of impedes my access to all my patching. Not the biggest deal either way. I guess the real question is would the monitors on top change the sound of the ones on the bottom. I can't see why they would. LF characteristics, basic physics, when the wave length being produced is larger than the dimension of the baffle it becomes an Omni radiatior so you change the LF and soundstage, plus an increase in early reflections in the highs and mids. So your changing the character of the speaker. Also if your listening off axis depending on the radiating pattern you could notice major changes or not, but there will probably be some peaks and dips they could make for some very interesting EQ choices. Yeah those pesky laws of physics. |
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 3, 2023 8:56:12 GMT -6
I have my 8330A's on top of my LYD48's. Of course, never run both at the same time. I worked to align the front faces and used GLM and Sonarworks respectively. Honestly, I didn't see any problems different from having them separate to having them stacked, in GLM. It actually got better. I realize this is likely a fluke but so far so good here. Analyzing with the LYD's, I didn't see or hear any problems there either.
The Genelecs have the proprietary "feet". I'm sure that helps. I do have them tilted down.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 3, 2023 9:47:31 GMT -6
Little 5" jobs I use to just give my ears a reset. I don't think they'll fit side by side with the Neumann's. I could put one of them on stands but it kind of impedes my access to all my patching. Not the biggest deal either way. I guess the real question is would the monitors on top change the sound of the ones on the bottom. I can't see why they would. LF characteristics, basic physics, when the wave length being produced is larger than the dimension of the baffle it becomes an Omni radiatior so you change the LF and soundstage, plus an increase in early reflections in the highs and mids. So your changing the character of the speaker. Also if your listening off axis depending on the radiating pattern you could notice major changes or not, but there will probably be some peaks and dips they could make for some very interesting EQ choices. Yeah those pesky laws of physics. But only on the top speaker, right? In theory the bottom speaker should remain the same? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 9:52:59 GMT -6
LF characteristics, basic physics, when the wave length being produced is larger than the dimension of the baffle it becomes an Omni radiatior so you change the LF and soundstage, plus an increase in early reflections in the highs and mids. So you’re changing the character of the speaker. Also if you’re listening off axis depending on the radiating pattern you could notice major changes or not, but there will probably be some peaks and dips they could make for some very interesting EQ choices. Yeah those pesky laws of physics. But only on the top speaker, right? In theory the bottom speaker should remain the same? Increased baffle effects both, dispersion and off axis effects depend on speaker positioning. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 3, 2023 10:04:53 GMT -6
But only on the top speaker, right? In theory the bottom speaker should remain the same? Increased baffle effects both, dispersion and off axis effects depend on speaker positioning. So basically even on the bottom speaker, having the top speaker on top essentially couples the two and acts like a part of the cabinet. Or at least it could. Am I getting close? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 10:09:56 GMT -6
Increased baffle effects both, dispersion and off axis effects depend on speaker positioning. So basically even on the bottom speaker, having the top speaker on top essentially couples the two and acts like a part of the cabinet. Or at least it could. Am I getting close? Nailed it, an increase in the baffle in any direction is going to have the same effect top, bottom, or side to side. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 10:12:42 GMT -6
I have my 8330A's on top of my LYD48's. Of course, never run both at the same time. I worked to align the front faces and used GLM and Sonarworks respectively. Honestly, I didn't see any problems different from having them separate to having them stacked, in GLM. It actually got better. I realize this is likely a fluke but so far so good here. Analyzing with the LYD's, I didn't see or hear any problems there either. The Genelecs have the proprietary "feet". I'm sure that helps. I do have them tilted down. It does depend on the type and size of speaker as well, coax's like Geithain's aren't too fussy about positioning (within reason) and that's why they get used a lot in mobile broadcast vans. Genelec's even with GLM can be a tad tetchy but they're generally pretty good, I thought mine had been positioned perfectly until I ran the GLM report and it said they were out of phase.
ATC's, Core 59's nah.. I think the main issue is they're nearly 4 foot long, originally I mounted said core's vertically and I had to do a crab style crouch for the sweetspot to appear. If I just sat down on the chair the stereo image would collapse, the phantom center disappeared and they'd become completely unintelligable. DSP helps to an extent with the Core's but they're not miracle workers.
As always there's a limit to things, YMMV etc. etc.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 11:00:44 GMT -6
I have my 8330A's on top of my LYD48's. Of course, never run both at the same time. I worked to align the front faces and used GLM and Sonarworks respectively. Honestly, I didn't see any problems different from having them separate to having them stacked, in GLM. It actually got better. I realize this is likely a fluke but so far so good here. Analyzing with the LYD's, I didn't see or hear any problems there either. The Genelecs have the proprietary "feet". I'm sure that helps. I do have them tilted down. It does depend on the type and size of speaker as well, coax's like Geithain's aren't too fussy about positioning (within reason) and that's why they get used a lot in mobile broadcast vans. Genelec's even with GLM can be a tad tetchy but they're generally pretty good, I thought mine had been positioned perfectly until I ran the GLM report and it said they were out of phase.
ATC's, Core 59's nah.. I think the main issue is they're nearly 4 foot long, originally I mounted said core's vertically and I had to do a crab style crouch for the sweetspot to appear. If I just sat down on the chair the stereo image would collapse, the phantom center disappeared and they'd become completely unintelligable. DSP helps to an extent with the Core's but they're not miracle workers.
As always there's a limit to things, YMMV etc. etc.
The advantage of a co-ax position wise is the same as a single driver full range, it’s true point source. You only have one driver axis you need to get right. Basically it’s point and shoot. A standard 2 way can get you close with a horn or wave guide but not as simple or easy as a true point source. The disadvantage is it’s hard to do a 3 way without problems. |
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Post by noob on Jan 3, 2023 11:02:31 GMT -6
Here's a picture of one of my favorite producers J LLoyd's studio. Take it for what it's worth. If you're a purist, yes it will effect the sound somewhat. But there's nothing wrong with this guys mixes... at all. Whatever works for you.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 12:00:09 GMT -6
The advantage of a co-ax position wise is the same as a single driver full range, it’s true point source. You only have one driver axis you need to get right. Basically it’s point and shoot. A standard 2 way can get you close with a horn or wave guide but not as simple or easy as a true point source. The disadvantage is it’s hard to do a 3 way without problems. We seem to of developed a habbit of stating the obvious at each other Eric. 
Did you know, water is wet?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 12:38:13 GMT -6
The advantage of a co-ax position wise is the same as a single driver full range, it’s true point source. You only have one driver axis you need to get right. Basically it’s point and shoot. A standard 2 way can get you close with a horn or wave guide but not as simple or easy as a true point source. The disadvantage is it’s hard to do a 3 way without problems. We seem to of developed a habbit of stating the obvious at each other Eric.
Did you know, water is wet?
Do tell😁 |
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2023 14:43:41 GMT -6
Sympathetic vibration between the two monitors would be at least a theoretical issue. Only if you use both at the same time. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2023 14:47:53 GMT -6
But only on the top speaker, right? In theory the bottom speaker should remain the same? Increased baffle effects both, dispersion and off axis effects depend on speaker positioning. I would assune that's only (primarily? if you have the baffles aligned? |
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2023 14:51:10 GMT -6
The advantage of a co-ax position wise is the same as a single driver full range, it’s true point source. You only have one driver axis you need to get right. Basically it’s point and shoot. A standard 2 way can get you close with a horn or wave guide but not as simple or easy as a true point source. The disadvantage is it’s hard to do a 3 way without problems. We seem to of developed a habbit of stating the obvious at each other Eric.
Did you know, water is wet?
What if you have canned, evaporated water from Missouri's Mule Trading Post? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 14:51:43 GMT -6
Sympathetic vibration between the two monitors would be at least a theoretical issue. Only if you use both at the same time. Comb filtering because of different phase and frequency response would be a much bigger deal if you used both at once. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2023 14:55:59 GMT -6
Only if you use both at the same time. Comb filtering because of different phase and frequency response would be a much bigger deal if you used both at once. No, they wouldn’t have to be aligned as long as the off set is less than the overall length of the baffle it’s going to function as an extended baffle, in other words the off set would have to be at longer than 1 wave length than the combined baffle |
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2023 14:56:18 GMT -6
Only if you use both at the same time. Comb filtering because of different phase and frequency response would be a much bigger deal if you used both at once. Which, of course, is kinda absurd, at least. If fact,most of the objections I've seen here have the same, or similar, objection - who the hell would be crazty enough to use both sets at the same time? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 15:10:10 GMT -6
Danny I don’t disagree but most of the world class room acoustics are main centric, near fields are generally an afterthought. Yeah, historically horn loaded mains mounted in the ceiling corners pointing down at a shallow back wall lined with reflective rack gear! Run at room swamping node exciting volcanic levels! Everyone's impressed but nobody can hear shit! The people who've worked there have learned how to hear through and around it. It ain't so precious. Yes and even in those “purpose built rooms” around a pair of mains, whatever small speakers that have been put on the bridge and pointed towards the engineer tend to have way more real world info what has been proven to work across rooms and engineer is usually not the mega money mains or the complex crossover ruler flat nearfields, perfect dispersion speakers but speakers that are totally ruthless and you can still buy them from about 200 for the acidic little JBLs (no sheen like the ones with the “too nice” JBL made drivers) to thousands for less resonant, more detailed, higher headroom pairs. Dan |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 15:17:00 GMT -6
Yeah, historically horn loaded mains mounted in the ceiling corners pointing down at a shallow back wall lined with reflective rack gear! Run at room swamping node exciting volcanic levels! Everyone's impressed but nobody can hear shit! The people who've worked there have learned how to hear through and around it. It ain't so precious. Yes and even in those “purpose built rooms” around a pair of mains, whatever small speakers that have been put on the bridge and pointed towards the engineer tend to have way more real world info. Yep, I've been in a ton of crappy rooms with LFAC's and mains.. I just used the NS10's or some headphones, the consoles were cool though. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 3, 2023 15:20:37 GMT -6
Here's a picture of one of my favorite producers J LLoyd's studio. Take it for what it's worth. If you're a purist, yes it will effect the sound somewhat. But there's nothing wrong with this guys mixes... at all. Whatever works for you. To me, this is the real insight: forget about perfection, know your talent, room and gear:,then use your experience and judgement, to serve the song, to the best of your abilities. Call me crazy, but I’d like to hear, a not perfect Steely Dan album: go figure ?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 15:53:22 GMT -6
Yes and even in those “purpose built rooms” around a pair of mains, whatever small speakers that have been put on the bridge and pointed towards the engineer tend to have way more real world info. Yep, I've been in a ton of crappy rooms with LFAC's and mains.. I just used the NS10's or some headphones, the consoles were cool though. Yeah and the contents of the rooms and components used in speaker models change all the time. soffit mount stuff or architectural features around a specific pair of towers or floorstanders seems like a bit of a waste to me. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 3, 2023 16:03:59 GMT -6
I love the '30's RCA manuals that recommend mounting a driver in a hole in a wall, and leaving an empty room behind it as the box. There's yer big baffle!
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Post by reddirt on Jan 3, 2023 16:14:16 GMT -6
IME p;ace the "best" set optimally; place some grippy yet absorptive mat between , angle the second set to your ears and notice that having the second set as an option is a heck of a lot better than having just one with a possible slightly better presentation which in practice you probably will find it difficult to hear anyway. Just make sure the boxes are decoupled (no they are not running at the same time) .
Just my .02 worth and yes i do it. Eve Audio 305 with KH 120 on top.
Cheers , Ross
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 16:14:48 GMT -6
Yep, I've been in a ton of crappy rooms with LFAC's and mains.. I just used the NS10's or some headphones, the consoles were cool though. Yeah and the contents of the rooms and components used in speaker models change all the time. soffit mount stuff or architectural features around a specific pair of towers or floorstanders seems like a bit of a waste to me. What is a waste of time is soffits bouncing off a desk, they spend god knows how much on all this equipment and don't even take into account the absolute basics of phsyics (yes Eric I hear you loud and clear). Okay so some of them lucked out but it's not a game of roulette I like to play. When I did my audio engineering degree this was like first month stuff, I was tearing apart an SSL 9K a couple of weeks after..
I've had 21 years in technical audio service, benchmark DAC / ADC design, audio programming, city wide PBX systems / switches, audio over IP and I've done some studio stuff in the mean time. I'm absolutely unsure how anyone who understands the sheer basics of all of this would make these mistakes. No, as an audio fidelity fan I don't necessarily agree that what some of these classic rooms created is something to be admired in terms of sonics, however that doesn't always have much bearing on the popularity of songs.
Y'know it's a case of whatever, they did well and were successful so good on them. For those who are striving for the next level though, get your monitors and room sorted it'll certainly do you no harm.
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