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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 13:33:21 GMT -6
I feel like I see monitors stacked on top of each other in some studio pics. I personally have never done this (never needed to and it just intuitively seems like a bad idea) but is it actually a bad idea? If so, why?
I've got a new pair of KH310's coming and they're gonna take up most of the space where I used to have two sets of monitors. I'm probably gonna come up with a different solution other than stacking (like I said, just seems wrong) but I figured maybe one of you tech minded folks might chime in with something like "actually, the reality is it makes no difference, stack if you want" or "stacking monitors is probably the dumbest thing you can do and here's why."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 13:38:26 GMT -6
Speakers should be at ear height which can't happen if one is stacked above the over, there's a ton of positioning / acoustical advice out there from manufacturers with reasons why they should be setup in a specific way. Visit Genelec, there's an entire section dedicated to this stuff.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 13:43:46 GMT -6
Speakers should be at ear height which can't happen if one is stacked above the over, there's a ton of positioning / acoustical advice out there from manufacturers with reasons why they should be setup in a specific way. Visit Genelec, there's an entire section dedicated to this stuff. That's definitely an obvious reason, but couldn't you angle them down? I'm not really advocating for this just for the record! More kind of curious. Like I said, it seems intuitively like a really bad idea but it also seems like some folks do it. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2023 13:57:18 GMT -6
Sympathetic vibration between the two monitors would be at least a theoretical issue.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 14:04:32 GMT -6
Sympathetic vibration between the two monitors would be at least a theoretical issue. Even if you're only playing one set at a time? |
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Post by copperx on Jan 2, 2023 14:14:05 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't know. It seems like if you're playing one set at a time and you have the tweeters firing correctly at your ears it shouldn't be a big deal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by christopher on Jan 2, 2023 14:24:44 GMT -6
My reading would indicate that an angled down position could be better if you have a minimally treated box shape room, since you are now spraying waves into angled space.
I sometimes put one on the floor angled up like a floor monitor if the room is bothering me
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2023 14:34:20 GMT -6
Well, if you were going for optimal performance, you want the foundation of each monitor to be secure and isolated.
I see stacked monitors and I wonder if they should be isolated from each other, so even when played separately you get the best performance ?
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 2, 2023 14:35:21 GMT -6
My reading wound indicate that an angled down position could be better if you have a minimally treated box shape room, since you are now spraying waves into angled space. I sometimes put one on the floor angled up like a floor monitor if the room is bothering me The problem with the angling method is that you’ve now introduced an unknown in terms of where the sound is bouncing around. Monitors that are parallel to the ground/ceiling produces a situation that’s much more a known quantity and therefore more predictable. And therefore treatable with room treatment. I wouldn’t hesitate to angle the monitors in a pinch, or if they were small nearfields played not very loudly (like the Pelonis 42s) but it’s generally not a great long term solution. Of course, if it’s working for you, great! |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 2, 2023 15:33:13 GMT -6
When I first opened my room (20ish years aro) I had NS10s on top or horizontally positioned Mackie HR824s. The Mackies still had a giant hole in the midrange and the NS10s were still annoying as shit.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 2, 2023 15:35:50 GMT -6
When I first opened my room (20ish years aro) I had NS10s on top or horizontally positioned Mackie HR824s. The Mackies still had a giant hole in the midrange and the NS10s were still annoying as shit. Oh man, I had a very close friend who had the 824s at his studio, and every time we mixed there, it had that smiley curve hole-in-the-middle sound to me. I was using Events at the time, which was damn near the opposite. |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 2, 2023 15:38:14 GMT -6
When I first opened my room (20ish years aro) I had NS10s on top or horizontally positioned Mackie HR824s. The Mackies still had a giant hole in the midrange and the NS10s were still annoying as shit. Oh man, I had a very close friend who had the 824s at his studio, and every time we mixed there, it had that smiley curve hole-in-the-middle sound to me. I was using Events at the time, which was damn near the opposite. I had Events in my 'home mastering' room at the time. I guess that made sense. I still have the Event's but the other sets are gone. I should probably sell the Events. They were good in a pinch when my amp blew up using passive speakers. I'm bad at selling things... |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2023 15:38:37 GMT -6
Should have stacked them and run together: flat as a pancake !  |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2023 15:51:20 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 17:32:11 GMT -6
When I first opened my room (20ish years aro) I had NS10s on top or horizontally positioned Mackie HR824s. The Mackies still had a giant hole in the midrange and the NS10s were still annoying as shit. Haha. So this would be a vote for "makes no difference!" |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 17:36:43 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter. Take a room like this. I mean, the back wall is way too close to the board. And I don't even think they're using any GIK stuff at all. Literally impossible to make anything good in there. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2023 18:31:50 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter. Take a room like this. I mean, the back wall is way too close to the board. And I don't even think they're using any GIK stuff at all. Literally impossible to make anything good in there. Exactly. Motown. Columbia 30th st. Etc. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2023 18:46:42 GMT -6
And or abstract discussions of rooms you don’t record in ? If we want to get objective, run your rew sweeps and see if there is any significant differences? Why do we isolate monitors, if it doesn't matter ? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2023 18:47:41 GMT -6
Biggest issue is going to always be the fact that you are increasing the baffle and how it affects the soundstage and mid bass. Ideal? No but if it works it works, hell you probably put a big old video monitor between them that screws it up anyway.😁
Sympathetic vibration is going to be a very minor issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 18:59:28 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter. It's not theoretical if it's easily measureable, I'm sure many of the studio's who invested a fortune into acoustically designed rooms would disagree with the statement it doesn't "matter". Back in the day engineers would deal with a mountain of issues and early records were not at the peak of fidelity, technology wouldn't allow for it to be. The mark of a good engineer is being able to lessen the impact to a reasonable extent, I'm sure many of us have made the best out of less than ideal on location engineering. You just have to make it work..
Also, if you gave someone the option to work on some NS-10's in a utterly crap room or work in a fully treated enviro with soffit mounted ATC's I wonder how many would go for the former option?
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Post by noob on Jan 2, 2023 19:07:38 GMT -6
It all depends on how big the monitors you are stacking on top of the Neumanns are. If they are small, not a huge deal, as long as they aren't too far above your ear holes. If they are bigger and have some low end punch, I'd avoid that personally.
If I were you I'd probably pick 2 sets that I like and put them side by side. Top of monitors is usually a place for a grotbox if anything.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2023 19:07:52 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter. It's not theoretical if it's easily measureable, I'm sure many of the studio's who invested a fortune into acoustically designed rooms would disagree with the statement it doesn't "matter". Back in the day engineers would deal with a mountain of issues and early records were not at the peak of fidelity, technology wouldn't allow for it to be. The mark of a good engineer is being able to lessen the impact to a reasonable extent, I'm sure many of us have made the best out of less than ideal on location engineering. You just have to make it work..
Also, if you gave someone the option to work on some NS-10's in a utterly crap room or work in a fully treated enviro with soffit mounted ATC's I wonder how many would go for the former option?
Danny I don’t disagree but most of the world class room acoustics are main centric, near fields are generally an afterthought. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2023 19:24:16 GMT -6
Any worries about theoretical problems are swamped by the average shitty room they're in. Historically, look at the unbelievably bad control rooms and monitor positions in many large golden age studios. Didn't matter. It's not theoretical if it's easily measureable, I'm sure many of the studio's who invested a fortune into acoustically designed rooms would disagree with the statement it doesn't "matter". Back in the day engineers would deal with a mountain of issues and early records were not at the peak of fidelity, technology wouldn't allow for it to be. The mark of a good engineer is being able to lessen the impact to a reasonable extent, I'm sure many of us have made the best out of less than ideal on location engineering. You just have to make it work..
Also, if you gave someone the option to work on some NS-10's in a utterly crap room or work in a fully treated enviro with soffit mounted ATC's I wonder how many would go for the former option?
You completely missed what I said. Look at 'classic' rooms and listen to the records made in them. Yeah, they could measure all that stuff back in the 1930's. Clearly doesn't mean they did in many/most famous cases. Not to the level it matters whether speakers are stacked or angled! I have yet to work in a space where that level of minutia would matter; well designed rooms, crap rooms, you name it. There's always some other larger problems that t-ru-m-p-s all that. Just look at the evidence! |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2023 19:25:33 GMT -6
It's not theoretical if it's easily measureable, I'm sure many of the studio's who invested a fortune into acoustically designed rooms would disagree with the statement it doesn't "matter". Back in the day engineers would deal with a mountain of issues and early records were not at the peak of fidelity, technology wouldn't allow for it to be. The mark of a good engineer is being able to lessen the impact to a reasonable extent, I'm sure many of us have made the best out of less than ideal on location engineering. You just have to make it work..
Also, if you gave someone the option to work on some NS-10's in a utterly crap room or work in a fully treated enviro with soffit mounted ATC's I wonder how many would go for the former option?
Danny I don’t disagree but most of the world class room acoustics are main centric, near fields are generally an afterthought. Yeah, historically horn loaded mains mounted in the ceiling corners pointing down at a shallow back wall lined with reflective rack gear! Run at room swamping node exciting volcanic levels! Everyone's impressed but nobody can hear shit! The people who've worked there have learned how to hear through and around it. It ain't so precious. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 2, 2023 19:28:35 GMT -6
It all depends on how big the monitors you are stacking on top of the Neumanns are. If they are small, not a huge deal, as long as they aren't too far above your ear holes. If they are bigger and have some low end punch, I'd avoid that personally. If I were you I'd probably pick 2 sets that I like and put them side by side. Top of monitors is usually a place for a grotbox if anything. Little 5" jobs I use to just give my ears a reset. I don't think they'll fit side by side with the Neumann's. I could put one of them on stands but it kind of impedes my access to all my patching. Not the biggest deal either way. I guess the real question is would the monitors on top change the sound of the ones on the bottom. I can't see why they would. |
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