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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 1:47:42 GMT -6
Why would the sub have to crossover at 150 hz? I would love to get the 25's, but if I need good subs with them, the 20's will probably be more in my budget range. I feel like everything ATC does is insanely high quality, from what I've been reading. I'd like to grab a mono sub that I can finely tune the crossover on, and crossover much lower than 150hz. I'm going to quote this for posterity, thanks Kcat: "The atc 25 are like what 100% more then the lyd48, will my mixes sound 100% better: I doubt it." Not sure about the math but yes, nods.. Monitors in the high end pixie dust fairy land are mostly excellent and also a bit unnecessary. All of this is mainly just preference, you might roll thunder on the ATC's or you might not.
Just pick three, find what your room likes and what helps you to translate to all of those pesky mediums. Also some subs have a high crossover and some don't, the Core Subs for example have a Linkwitz at 80Hz. Whether or not you'd need a sub for the 25's? Well that's on you, it entirely depends on what you do. When I worked on metal songs with ATC's in the past I rolled everything off below 40Hz to avoid a bass buildup train wreck so a sub wouldn't have added anything to the party. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2022 2:27:30 GMT -6
I am still leaning towards saving up for the ATC SCM20 with a sub. Btw, I hit up that site about the Quested H208, they said it's gone. Would've been awesome. ATC 20's are looking like a solid move though, maybe midway through next year, to take my mixing to the next level. In the meantime I might try to pick up a sub and a pair of vintage JBL control monitors, just to keep things exciting... If we are going down the ATC route you want the SCM25's, subs can cause havoc with a room and ideally you need two of them. Also why would you get super accurate monitors only to have low grade performance up to the crossover of around 150Hz? Decent sealed subs cost a fortune (plus they weigh a ton), probably more than the SCM 20's themselves and LMF performance is where high end speakers shine.
Placement and taking advantage of boundary walls (bass buildup) makes a lot of difference, REW showed the ATC SCM 25's in my room extending down to 40Hz which is higher than I like but for many that would cover it. If I still did mainly rock / metal there wouldn't be any need for a sub..The ATC SCM 50's that a retailer kindly lent me extended down to about 32Hz. ATC don't even rate them at these levels, that's the result of a half decent room..
ATC freq ratings are based on where they start to distort as much as where they actually start to roll off. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2022 2:45:00 GMT -6
The ATC 20 vs 25 debate is an interesting one, I don’t think I would call either “better” it’s a lot of what works for you. Considering the modern idea of near field can mean less than a meter, for many 25’s just don’t congeal, 3 ways need a bit more space, plus for many the crossover points of a 3 way just don’t sit well. While the ATC drivers in the 25’s are magnificent, they are not the SL woofer or S mid, most don’t notice till they compare to the bigger systems with the SL and S.
For many the 20 is a magic box, a traditional English 2 way with some of the finest drivers in the world, but for some the crossover point is annoying others miss that mid dome. The tweeters in both have their own fan base.
With ATC’s and mono subs it’s really easy to play where is the sub, simply because the sub is going to have very different distortion characteristics. Stereo subs close to each mains creates a more coherent illusion.
Where to cross a sub comes down to 3 major factors, the mains, the sub and the room. The idea is to find what sounds best without getting to a point where we are pushing the limits of the sub or mains. Lots of experimenting mesuring and listening.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 27, 2022 3:43:22 GMT -6
A sub would definitely excite the room to much and be a mistake as would the 45’s. One has to consider the room you’re putting the monitors into. All these high end monitors are definitely a big long term investment. All three points, edited of course. The 45's don't have enough low end, IMHO. Even for the room you're in, OP. I had them for six years, I think. Gotta be a reason Barefoot put out a sub for them was my conclusion as I had to put a sub in my own space just to hear what was going on down there. Even the 25’s have enough low end in my treated room, as I said it really is room dependent and further to that the placement in the room. I will say though, when I first got the ATC I had to get used to the complete lack of distortion across the bandwidth as at first it gives the impression of being a tad light in the bass when I’m reality it’s all there in the proportions I wanted just unbelievably clean and articulate, also you have to watch the volume as it’s too easy to turn them up as the lack of distortion gives the illusion your ears are safe - when of course they’re not. The 45’s were physically too big for my room, otherwise I would of bought them. I really wanted the 50’s but imho they require a much larger space. I’ll use ATC monitors going forward now whatever the model number, it’s my idea of how audio should be presented coming out of a speaker. Not everyone’s taste of course. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 27, 2022 3:50:35 GMT -6
Also, are you saying with the SCM25's I wouldn't need a sub, but with the 20's I would? Possibly. In my room I definitely don’t need a sub with my 25’s. Maybe you will with the 20’s? My only reservation about the 20’s is the lack of dedicated mid driver and really a large amount of the marquee of the ATC sound is their dome mid driver - the 25’s being the ground floor entrance to that building. The mid driver is truly an X Ray machine into the music and I think the reason I got into ATC monitors that and the traditional engineering approach and super low distortion. Just another point to consider. Ideally you really need to demo all these different monitors so you can decide the aspects you personally value and can hear. You might demo 25’s and disagree with all the aspects that float my boat and prefer something totally different! |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 27, 2022 4:25:09 GMT -6
The ATC 20 vs 25 debate is an interesting one, I don’t think I would call either “better” it’s a lot of what works for you. Considering the modern idea of near field can mean less than a meter, for many 25’s just don’t congeal, 3 ways need a bit more space, plus for many the crossover points of a 3 way just don’t sit well. While the ATC drivers in the 25’s are magnificent, they are not the SL woofer or S mid, most don’t notice till they compare to the bigger systems with the SL and S. For many the 20 is a magic box, a traditional English 2 way with some of the finest drivers in the world, but for some the crossover point is annoying others miss that mid dome. The tweeters in both have their own fan base. With ATC’s and mono subs it’s really easy to play where is the sub, simply because the sub is going to have very different distortion characteristics. Stereo subs close to each mains creates a more coherent illusion. Where to cross a sub comes down to 3 major factors, the mains, the sub and the room. The idea is to find what sounds best without getting to a point where we are pushing the limits of the sub or mains. Lots of experimenting mesuring and listening. I don’t think those SL drivers can fit in a 25 cabinet! But you’re spot on the higher you go up the ATC food chain the closer you get to sonic perfection. I mixed an EP for a friend in a fantastic studio that had ATC 150’s. I will never forget the experience those 150’s were utterly breathtaking in every single aspect - beyond stunning. For $23k that’s what you get - perfection. I guess my baby 25’s offer a bit of that ATC magic for a small project studio setting at a closer to affordable price (relatively speaking) |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 27, 2022 5:25:18 GMT -6
There’s a pair of demo atc25 at vintage king $1000 off, if you pay off in 12 months zero interest.
If you are saving up anyway, pay of what you can finance any balance ?
As a side note, anybody with lyd48’s ever find them hissy?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 5:26:06 GMT -6
I don’t think those SL drivers can fit in a 25 cabinet! But you’re spot on the higher you go up the ATC food chain the closer you get to sonic perfection. I mixed an EP for a friend in a fantastic studio that had ATC 150’s. I will never forget the experience those 150’s were utterly breathtaking in every single aspect - beyond stunning. For $23k that’s what you get - perfection. I'm not sure if it's the same over there but some of the B-Stock / Ex-Demo offers seem incredible, currently there's a major pro audio retailer selling a B-Stock pair of ATC SCM 100's for less than a pair of 50's. It was the same when I was demo'ing, the SCM50's we're actually cheaper than the 25's.
It was more about size and weight.. 165lb's a speaker is a lot. Nobody's mentioned PSI yet, I was very much impressed by the A23-M's. The A21 has a 10" woofer, no DSP, class G/H & A/B amps, 38Hz low end frequency, 5 year warranty. Not bad for $7.5k. The only reason I didn't go for the A-23's is my desk, I needed something that could be mounted horizontally. I did ask PSI about it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 27, 2022 5:35:02 GMT -6
“and super low distortion“ What you might call cleaness is typically how I react listening to atc demos: there is just this clarity, spaciousness snd detail.m, even on line. Demoed live some 25’s and was utterly impressed, kind of blows my mind that the more expensive atc, get even better !  But, they’ll be whispering sweet nothings, till I win the lottery ! |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 27, 2022 7:43:14 GMT -6
“and super low distortion“ What you might call cleaness is typically how I react listening to atc demos: there is just this clarity, spaciousness snd detail.m, even on line. Demoed live some 25’s and was utterly impressed, kind of blows my mind that the more expensive atc, get even better ! But, they’ll be whispering sweet nothings, till I win the lottery ! …. and if I win the lottery, I’ll buy you a pair |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 27, 2022 8:49:34 GMT -6
Ha ha, I’m down, but there is always the dyn 5 pairs of lyd48 giveaway !
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Post by noob on Dec 27, 2022 11:06:13 GMT -6
Yeah I will definitely have to demo any before buying, esp in that price range! If I can find a pair of 25's used for around the price of new 20's, that might be something I'd be interested in. I guess at the end of the day I'm figuring why spend almost $4k, when I know there's something a little better for just a little more. As a mix engineer, most people wouldn't understand my financial priorities.... lol
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 27, 2022 11:54:10 GMT -6
Yeah I will definitely have to demo any before buying, esp in that price range! If I can find a pair of 25's used for around the price of new 20's, that might be something I'd be interested in. I guess at the end of the day I'm figuring why spend almost $4k, when I know there's something a little better for just a little more. As a mix engineer, most people wouldn't understand my financial priorities.... lol Monitors, in my very humble opinion are critical. Everything you hear, from every note that is written and performed to the sound of every instrument, voice, mic, pre-amp, processor, effect, room acoustics and even cable .... .... ALL come out of your monitors and into your ears. Given my time again, I would of bought my ATC 25's first before I spent a cent on anything else. I would of built my entire studio from the 25's upwards. Equally, if I was forced to sell everything, I'd rather end up with a laptop, one pre, one mic and my ATC 25's than any other combination. It took me decades to learn that lesson. My humble advice would go - be patient, save for longer and if you can stretch go for the very best you can afford - I think it's worth the extra investment. |
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Post by noob on Dec 27, 2022 11:57:39 GMT -6
Yeah I will definitely have to demo any before buying, esp in that price range! If I can find a pair of 25's used for around the price of new 20's, that might be something I'd be interested in. I guess at the end of the day I'm figuring why spend almost $4k, when I know there's something a little better for just a little more. As a mix engineer, most people wouldn't understand my financial priorities.... lol Monitors, in my very humble opinion are critical. Everything you hear, from every note that is written and performed to the sound of every instrument, voice, mic, pre-amp, processor, effect, room acoustics and even cable .... .... ALL come out of your monitors and into your ears. Given my time again, I would of bought my ATC 25's first before I spent a cent on anything else. I would of built my entire studio from the 25's upwards. Equally, if I was forced to sell everything, I'd rather end up with a laptop, one pre, one mic and my ATC 25's than any other combination. It took me decades to learn that lesson. My humble advice would go - be patient, save for longer and if you can stretch go for the very best you can afford - I think it's worth the extra investment. That makes perfect sense, and I'm pretty much in the same boat of thinking. Why would I compromise when it comes to this, it's important to hear things as authentically as I possibly can. Some of my favorite producers/engineers work off of ATC's, so I think it's time for me to start saving. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 13:10:07 GMT -6
I gotta ask because I'm genuinely curious, where exactly is the compromise? We have BlackDawg on Genelec's, Mcirish and Ragan on LYD 48's, John Kennedy on Amphions. Just a small excerpt of the professional levels of quality displayed on this forum alone. The Hanes uses Genelec's / Proac's, Adrian Breakspear when I last spoke to them they were on 1031's.. We're talking award winners or nominee's..
You might work best with ATC 25's or you might not even get along with them, I know another world class mixer who went Gethain over ATC, it's not something I'd do but it works for them. I'm sorry to name drop a bit here but Noob, you came in with a $3.5K budget. For that money there are extremely viable solutions that might just work for you over anything mentioned here, I'd never push someone towards buying anything no matter how much I personally enjoy something. Take the Core's for example, I'm used to Dynaudio's presentation style because of the LYD's but many wouldn't share that sentiment, some might like them, some may hate them, some may produce their best work ever, I don't know..
Again, when we're talking this money we're past the usual technical limitations which means high orders of distortion, lack of clarity, small sweetspots (phantom centre), noise and complete frequency inaccuracy. Monitors are personal and my advice is don't dismiss anything out of hand, if the ATC's really are the only thing that will work for you cool. All that's lost is a bit of time.. If it goes the other way and you prefer something cheaper like the HEDD Type 20's then you saved yourself a lot of money.
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Post by noob on Dec 27, 2022 13:29:26 GMT -6
I gotta ask because I'm genuinely curious, where exactly is the compromise? We have BlackDawg on Genelec's, Mcirish and Ragan on LYD 48's, John Kennedy on Amphions. Just a small excerpt of the professional levels of quality displayed on this forum alone. The Hanes uses Genelec's / Proac's, Adrian Breakspear when I last spoke to them they were on 1031's.. We're talking award winners or nominee's.. You might work best with ATC 25's or you might not even get along with them, I know another world class mixer who went Gethain over ATC, it's not something I'd do but it works for them. I'm sorry to name drop a bit here but Noob, you came in with a $3.5K budget. For that money there are extremely viable solutions that might just work for you over anything mentioned here, I'd never push someone towards buying anything no matter how much I personally enjoy something. Take the Core's for example, I'm used to Dynaudio's presentation style because of the LYD's but many wouldn't share that sentiment, some might like them, some may hate them, some may produce their best work ever, I don't know.. Again, when we're talking this money we're past the usual technical limitations which means high orders of distortion, lack of clarity, small sweetspots (phantom centre), noise and complete frequency inaccuracy. Monitors are personal and my advice is don't dismiss anything out of hand, if the ATC's really are the only thing that will work for you cool. All that's lost is a bit of time.. If it goes the other way and you prefer something cheaper like the KH310's then you saved yourself a lot of money. Just to be clear, my Amphions are amazing. I don't think that any of these speakers, including the Barefoots, would be something that wouldn't work for me. The way I'm looking at it now, is if I want to invest and actually make myself a better mixing engineer, I want to buy the highest quality microscope I can find. I also use the Slate VSX software often, and always find myself gravitating towards the ATC's in every room (I get that these are just emulations, but the frequency representations are somewhat accurate). I'm not sold on ATC's entirely, but I just keep reading incredible things about them online, and what I'm hearing is that they are some of the most honest monitors out there. I have heard great mixes that were done off of Auratones, heck even car speakers. I don't think "greatness" is about the speakers themselves, but the ears that are hearing them. That being said, I don't necessarily think a set of dynaudio's, genelecs, or even barefoots would be a compromising - since I already have One15's that do a lot of midrange work already, I really just want another set that will pair well with the One15's and give me more insight and depth into my mix. From what I've been reading, if you have a mix sounding great on ATC, they will translate very well, which is by far the most important part for me. I've also never personally loved the genelec sound for mixing, more for tracking. I've used dynaudio extensively in different studios, I'm just not set with what I've read Lyd 48's, but I haven't heard them in person yet. That being said, everything is subjective, I don't expect what I'm reading or what I've heard in my experiences to make sense to anyone else. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 13:48:57 GMT -6
I have heard great mixes that were done off of Auratones, heck even car speakers. I don't think "greatness" is about the speakers themselves, but the ears that are hearing them. That being said, I don't necessarily think a set of dynaudio's, genelecs, or even barefoots would be a compromising - since I already have One15's that do a lot of midrange work already, I really just want another set that will pair well with the One15's and give me more insight and depth into my mix. From what I've been reading, if you have a mix sounding great on ATC, they will translate very well, which is by far the most important part for me. I've also never personally loved the genelec sound for mixing, more for tracking. I've used dynaudio extensively in different studios, I'm just not set with what I've read Lyd 48's, but I haven't heard them in person yet. We've gone a bit past the LYD's haven't we?  I recently did a test of all of these (back in July?).. The Core's for me won out the first round (up against Genelec "The one's" (8341), KH310 and LYD 48's). I couldn't get hold of the HEDD type 20's, I tried for months.
Then I put them up against the ATC SCM 50's, PSI A-23M's and Geithain RL930's. That's where we got into the land of nitpicking, so again it came down to room, speaker size, price, listening distances, preferences etc. etc. because of the LYD's I think I was already a bit bias. From what you're saying, it seems you're already an ATC fan so..
The ATC SCM's wouldn't be an addition IMO, they would be a singular replacement. They can do it all.
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Post by noob on Dec 27, 2022 13:53:05 GMT -6
The ATC SCM's or any of the above monitors wouldn't be an addition IMO, they would be a singular replacement. They can do it all..
I am starting to realize this, which is why I am so intrigued by them ( not sold yet, but very very interested  ). If all goes well, who knows, I may end up being able to sell my S8's and my One15's... But, still a lot more listening and research to do. I truly do appreciate all your insight! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 29, 2022 17:52:17 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 29, 2022 17:54:52 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 29, 2022 18:08:07 GMT -6
If I remember correctly the new ones have the in house built tweeter and while it isn’t that big a deal if they are more than 5-7 years old they don’t have the dome from the mid used as a dust cap on the woofer. Still nice speakers. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 29, 2022 23:24:58 GMT -6
Speaking of the KH310s, if they're good enough for Bob Clearmountain...
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2023 9:33:52 GMT -6
If I remember correctly the new ones have the in house built tweeter and while it isn’t that big a deal if they are more than 5-7 years old they don’t have the dome from the mid used as a dust cap on the woofer. Still nice speakers. I saw these, and very tempting because I live so close. I could go pick them up easily, but I was reading a lot of people like the active 20's more. I don't know if I'm ready to pull the trigger just yet, but seems like a good deal! |
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2023 9:35:30 GMT -6
Not a day goes by I don't daydream about some quested H208's though...
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2023 11:11:28 GMT -6
Does anyone know anything about Tyler Acoustics? Very intrigued by their speakers, handmade and seemingly very competitively priced for the quality.
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I recently did a test of all of these (back in July?).. The Core's for me won out the first round (up against Genelec "The one's" (8341), KH310 and LYD 48's). I couldn't get hold of the HEDD type 20's, I tried for months.
). If all goes well, who knows, I may end up being able to sell my S8's and my One15's... But, still a lot more listening and research to do. I truly do appreciate all your insight! 