|
|
Post by scumbum on Jun 6, 2014 9:37:49 GMT -6
That is why I mentioned burning down identical midi files with different software and hearing the engine, sans converters. R I'm not a midi guy so that midi sugesstion flew over my head at first . Now I get it , if your using midi you've eliminated the converters and are now strictly testing the DAW . Good idea . |
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Jun 6, 2014 9:49:21 GMT -6
I can offer an experience I had around 1997. We did a comparison between Pro Tools and Sonic Solutions using the same D to A converter. With no signal processing, they were indistinguishable. With a 2 dB. reduction in level Pro Tools sounded surprisingly worse than the Sonic. With the same 2 dB. reduction done in Pro Tools only using a Waves Renaissance equalizer gain control, it left the Sonic in the dust, a night and day difference. We then tried a .2 dB. change in each with the exact same results. Simply put, everybody does not use the same signal processing math. Thankfully Pro Tools has improved a great deal since then. Wow , it better have improved , thats horrible results ! Imagine a whole mix with tons of processing ! My friend bought a whole TDM rig back then for like $40,000 with tons of plugins . I never liked the results he got . I've been using PT LE 7.4 . Are the latest versions much better sounding than what I've been using ? What version of PT would you say started to get things right ? This is all the more reason to start using Harrison MixBus ! |
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 6, 2014 11:45:37 GMT -6
PT7.4 was a pretty big improvement. Because PT11 required recoding plug-ins for 64 bit memory addressing, some developers took the opportunity to improve their twenty year old code.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on Jun 7, 2014 10:55:32 GMT -6
I did it again recently with the same results.
R
|
|
|
|
Post by delcampo on Jun 7, 2014 12:09:54 GMT -6
"Digititus" is the crunchy sound of the truncation distortion caused by lack of dither. You can think of it as a chattering noise gate. Dither makes it chatter so fast that it sounds like hiss. The hiss actually retains low level information. Then there's aliasing which covers up midrange detail. I've heard the aliasing in a converter make the brushes on a snare drum go completely away! Unfortunately the MIDI crowd won the DAW market based the ability to do anything at all using cheap computer hardware. Things have improved a great deal but I still can't count on digital being properly coded and not screwing something up if I'm not very careful. The significance of dither in the daw world and the multitude of potential math errors via gain staging / plugs etc. is IME a subject very much in need of focusing on. I've been (since Bob, Paul Frindle & a couple others insights) applying a Sonnox dynamics plug w/ dithering sans any other processing on my stereo stems that feed the console & HW. I'm not completley sure whether it's "enough" addressing of truncation concerns but, simply what my habits & ears have settled on, for now. That and exceedingly selective gain & plug choices. I'm fwiw on Nuendo 5.5 & Mac here. It seems to me that this topic alone deserves further clarification & insights from those that have traveled the road & might be kind enough to offer further enlightenment. The degree of which so many recordists stand to benefit from thwarting the exponential build up of crunchy digi dirge as much as may be possible, with wise & relatively simple dithering choices is in my view, pretty major stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 7, 2014 14:39:47 GMT -6
I first learned about the necessity of dither from newsgroup postings by Jim Johnston of Bell Labs during the '90s. I was pleased to see Paul pick up the ball after JJ and the rest of his team got canned and he moved to Microsoft and the dark night of non-disclosure. Here are a couple of his recent video lectures that explain a lot:
|
|
|
|
Post by donr on Jun 7, 2014 22:50:02 GMT -6
Bob, in light of the perception of noise, would you recommend dithering in a multitrack DAW session whenever there's mix down, bouncing tracks, stems, etc. as well as mastering or otherwise 2 trk manipulation going on?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 8, 2014 8:52:05 GMT -6
We are always choosing between noise or even more audible distortion that can't be fixed after the fact. Dither prevents distortion, it doesn't just cover it up. There is way less noise from dithering than would be introduced by analog processing. It's incompetent engineering design that we even need to think about dither but it is what it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2014 10:08:23 GMT -6
Speaking of hiss as @bob_Olhsson said, why is it that plugin emulations of LA2As, LA3s, 1176s EQs etc produce more hiss than their hardware counterparts? Shouldn't they be virtually noise free and just perform the signal processing according to the 1s and 0s?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 8, 2014 11:00:36 GMT -6
Noise is often a main source of character. I think software developers often get carried away in an attempt to make effects more obvious.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 8, 2014 11:20:56 GMT -6
As to dither and jitter, these are effects that occur from the LR clock (word clock) of the converters. When the files are manipulated in the software the LR clock is not used to time the data. It is applied by the DAC during playback or the ADC during encoding.
What I hear from editing software is a detruction of the fidelity of the original track. When you stack up those tracks I hear that screeching top end that seems to be more extreme when mass compression is added on top. That is the sound of today's DAW productions, a top end that is not natural nor in porportion. It's the "kelly clarkson" type of sound I hear not only in modern pop productions but also in jingles on TV and movie trailers, the "Pro Tools" sound.
No matter how engaging the music may be, if I hear that sound I turn it off, it's not enjoyable. Even my cats will run out of the room if that stuff is being played here.
I have found a cure for it: Stay off the DAW's. Stick with a dedicated recorder and an analog mix/outboard setup. Then music sounds like it used to, engaging, easy to listen to, no fatigue.
Funny how we have all this modern technology and computing power, yet recorded music has never sounded so bad. There is a reason many worship the records of days past, not for just the music, but for the sounds.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 8, 2014 12:24:11 GMT -6
Dither has nothing at all to do with the clock. I think of it as being the equivalent of AC bias in an analog tape machine. Leave it off and you get a bunch of edgy-sounding distortion.
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Jun 8, 2014 13:00:26 GMT -6
Even my cats will run out of the room if that stuff is being played here. I knew this modern music was harmful to humans ...but its starting to affect the animals as well ? We need to get PETA involved . These Bastards have gone too far !!! |
|
