ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 22, 2022 0:29:12 GMT -6
Nice....but you need more gear!!! And cables!!! Still in flux, but getting there. It’s a mess and I realized I still don’t show the sidecar. Here’s a thing I realized after plotting all this stuff out. You have to have access to all this stuff - so when you get a sidecar that has idk - a huge amount of RUs, you gotta give space for heat and for being able to get your hands in there. Man, this has been interesting really plotting out where my hardware should go. i.postimg.cc/qM21k53q/F8671-ABA-F289-4-F17-8473-F92-A9-D670-D4-F.jpgAh yes the fun of figuring and fighting with cooling! First don’t rack mount your power amp, in general it not only eats up rack space but you will significantly cut down on heat in the rack. Ideally a nice open frame Sound Anchors amp stand so you get air flow underneath, on the cheap put a couple of bricks underneath position it on the floor between the speakers and you will also cut down on the speaker cable run. Also if you can put it on its own circuit breaker, if your still running the Lexicon / Bryston it’s the biggest current draw and heat producer you have. Now your also learning why my favorite racks are the straight Middle Atlantic install racks with removable sides. Straight racks make it easier to deal with spacing and air flow. If your rack rails will let you a good standard is 1/3 rack unit space between each piece in general it will give you enough flow unless of course the manufacturer insists that the thing needs more space. I have been fighting manufacturers for years on this but if the thing needs a rack space above and or below why the hell didn’t you just design the damn chassis for better cooling ? I mean YOU can call it one rack unit but if it needs a space above and below in practical terms it’s 3 fing rack units! Wait you put all the weight in the back, and you went with a really thin front ? How about mounts for rear rail support like every heavy amp except the original Peavey CS800 ! And yes being able to route and tie cables from the side just makes it so much neater and easy to troubleshoot ( those Middle Atlantic lacing bars were invented by Tom and Dana at Full Compass). Don’t feel bad these issues strike the best of us, here is another of Eric’s adventures in pro audio. I had a client a high school that had a pretty major sized install, the original amp rack was full matching amps that all sucked in air from the front and blew the hot air out the sides and the back, unfortunately before my time the top amp failed out of warranty and was replaced by a newer amp from the same manufacturer that sucked in air from the back and blew it out the front. The amp failed, it got repaired, it failed. Right before the incident that took me out I had convinced the administration to replace this amp with what was supposed to be there. Well my replacement convinced the teacher that he should go with this cheaper amp and spend the other funds on fun stuff. The 3rd day I was in the building after everything he comes in and in front of the owner tells me about this bargain, I shake my head and say “ your going to be sorry “ the owner tells me I’m losing my touch and never tell a client he bought the wrong thing from us. Well in 3 months the amp is in the shop 3 times because there is nothing wrong with the amp except it’s going into thermal shut down because of all the hot air it’s sucking in because it sucks in cold from the sides. Full Compass ate the cost of the right amp. Because nobody who was involved at the time understood you don’t mix manufacturers or series in a rack unless you know how they vent. To this day any time I see an install or road rack with mic and match amps I cringe.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 22, 2022 6:38:17 GMT -6
Nice....but you need more gear!!! And cables!!! Still in flux, but getting there. It’s a mess and I realized I still don’t show the sidecar. Here’s a thing I realized after plotting all this stuff out. You have to have access to all this stuff - so when you get a sidecar that has idk - a huge amount of RUs, you gotta give space for heat and for being able to get your hands in there. Man, this has been interesting really plotting out where my hardware should go. i.postimg.cc/qM21k53q/F8671-ABA-F289-4-F17-8473-F92-A9-D670-D4-F.jpgWhat's the other end of the room look like? Tracking end?
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Post by svart on Aug 22, 2022 7:14:55 GMT -6
Still in flux, but getting there. It’s a mess and I realized I still don’t show the sidecar. Here’s a thing I realized after plotting all this stuff out. You have to have access to all this stuff - so when you get a sidecar that has idk - a huge amount of RUs, you gotta give space for heat and for being able to get your hands in there. Man, this has been interesting really plotting out where my hardware should go. i.postimg.cc/qM21k53q/F8671-ABA-F289-4-F17-8473-F92-A9-D670-D4-F.jpgWhat's the other end of the room look like? Tracking end? If I remember correctly, that's it. He's standing pretty much in the doorway taking that picture. It's mostly a mix room, but he would stand in the open spot to the near left to do vocals and/or acoustic guitar.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 22, 2022 9:39:32 GMT -6
Still in flux, but getting there. It’s a mess and I realized I still don’t show the sidecar. Here’s a thing I realized after plotting all this stuff out. You have to have access to all this stuff - so when you get a sidecar that has idk - a huge amount of RUs, you gotta give space for heat and for being able to get your hands in there. Man, this has been interesting really plotting out where my hardware should go. i.postimg.cc/qM21k53q/F8671-ABA-F289-4-F17-8473-F92-A9-D670-D4-F.jpgWhat's the other end of the room look like? Tracking end?
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Post by mcirish on Aug 22, 2022 9:44:41 GMT -6
Very cool John. I love to see what people can do with limited space. Are the panels GIK?
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Post by Ned Ward on Aug 22, 2022 9:52:49 GMT -6
I use them as well. Great cables, also they have multi-channel snakes. Mike's great to work with. Redco is also excellent and use them for one-off cables. They will keep me from ever wanting to learn to solder...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 22, 2022 10:54:48 GMT -6
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Post by Omicron9 on Aug 22, 2022 12:10:03 GMT -6
What's the other end of the room look like? Tracking end? Johnkenn, Your space looks quite good; warm and tasteful color palette. Very welcoming. Are you happy with the acoustics? -09
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 22, 2022 13:21:17 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 22, 2022 13:27:00 GMT -6
So...that's kind've depressing to look at lol. Looks fucking great, though lol. I had a lot of auralex and tons of coverage...a lot less coverage now. I'd probably have to do some major bass trapping and two of those tuned membrane ones to really get better results.
That being said, the cloud surrounding my mix position has really made the stereo field and center image fantastic. Add in the Trinnov and it's the bomb.
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Post by jmoose on Aug 22, 2022 15:26:07 GMT -6
Still in flux, but getting there. It’s a mess and I realized I still don’t show the sidecar. Here’s a thing I realized after plotting all this stuff out. You have to have access to all this stuff - so when you get a sidecar that has idk - a huge amount of RUs, you gotta give space for heat and for being able to get your hands in there. Man, this has been interesting really plotting out where my hardware should go. Two words? Service Loop. Having enough wiggle room on each end of the cable runs is really essential. Being able to pull & replace a single rack box without disturbing everything else? Totally not overrated! For the sidecar rack you definitely want to use snakes, and probably in general you want to use snakes. Plan for expansion and build in extra lines & patchbay points. Maybe even a guest patchbay & tie lines? At some point a rack of "visiting gear" might show up and stay a while... being able to plug in another 4 odd channels of stuff (8 total, 4 out 4 back) and have it show up in the bays like it was always there? Also not overrated! Cable runs are always longer then we'd think. Especially keeping everything neat & tidy, kinda hidden? That rack 8 feet away & just out of arms reach might need a 20-25 foot run... Out of the bays... bundled nicely... turn & run down down the back of a desk leg... turn again & run across the floor out of foot traffic... turn again... up the rack... turn again & this time with service loops..? RedCo is great for turnkey custom work but you probably have sources in town that are competitive on price & delivery... Stock plug & go? I've used a bunch of Audiopile for installs & never had a problem. Snakes, single cables, the dsub bays? All fine & dandy for the price. Sits nicely between custom cable & Hosa. www.audiopile.net/DSUB-25-Pin-Male-D-sub-to-8-Channel-FXLR-Fantail_p_7078.htmlNothing wrong with regular old ProCo wiring either. Have a bunch of that myself. Whatever path you go just plan for expansion... what if you want to pop another 8 space rack of gear next to the sidecar? Or buy another sidecar rack? Someone brings a few pieces by for a demo or a couple days of work? In a perfect world you should be able to say no problem & grab a couple short patches... if its not that easy you probably need to rethink and retool a little. Buying cable kinda sucks. It seems expensive but really cable is super cheap compared to the time & labor of having to redo everything because hey ho, we've added another rack!
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2022 10:29:47 GMT -6
^^^ YES! Agreed.
Having things neat, tidy and serviceable cannot be overstated. This leads to comfort and less stress which leads to greater creativity which leads to better music.
To also add to the above, having cables that are not TOO long is critical for the neat / tidy thing as well. If you need 4 snakes that are 10' long, and you end up with 4 snakes that are 35' long, it's a serious bummer. It's one (not the only, but one) of the reasons I've gone to interchangeable Elco interconnects for all my racks. It makes them easy to move to a different location. Just change a pair of interconnects for up to 24 I/o and go! A day long job becomes a 5 minute job.
Wiring and interfacing a studio is so important. So simple, so complex, and so critical. Not to be overlooked or underestimated.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2022 17:33:58 GMT -6
^^^ YES! Agreed. Having things neat, tidy and serviceable cannot be overstated. This leads to comfort and less stress which leads to greater creativity which leads to better music. To also add to the above, having cables that are not TOO long is critical for the neat / tidy thing as well. If you need 4 snakes that are 10' long, and you end up with 4 snakes that are 35' long, it's a serious bummer. It's one (not the only, but one) of the reasons I've gone to interchangeable Elco interconnects for all my racks. It makes them easy to move to a different location. Just change a pair of interconnects for up to 24 I/o and go! A day long job becomes a 5 minute job. Wiring and interfacing a studio is so important. So simple, so complex, and so critical. Not to be overlooked or underestimated. Infrastructure, it’s not sexy, but makes life so much easier Live I’m so falling in love with audio over Ethernet, if your in the box and can afford to put conversion in each rack CAT4 or 5 cables is small and cheap!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 23, 2022 18:02:57 GMT -6
Wow John, that looks fantastic! I know you'll dial it in, but it's such a tasteful pro design. You can definitely be proud of it!
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2022 6:44:11 GMT -6
That looks pretty great though. As you already know, 90% of the result is 10% of the cost. The last 10% of the work is 90% of the cost. Below 100Hz was always going to be tough due to the room size. It's a lot less about angles and traps and more about the room size probably acting as a tuned resonator, similar to a speaker box.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 24, 2022 7:19:41 GMT -6
That looks pretty great though. As you already know, 90% of the result is 10% of the cost. The last 10% of the work is 90% of the cost. Below 100Hz was always going to be tough due to the room size. It's a lot less about angles and traps and more about the room size probably acting as a tuned resonator, similar to a speaker box. Think there’s any point to maybe adding some tunes membrane panels?
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2022 7:31:25 GMT -6
That looks pretty great though. As you already know, 90% of the result is 10% of the cost. The last 10% of the work is 90% of the cost. Below 100Hz was always going to be tough due to the room size. It's a lot less about angles and traps and more about the room size probably acting as a tuned resonator, similar to a speaker box. Think there’s any point to maybe adding some tunes membrane panels? Hard to say. That peak at 40hz is pretty huge (8dB-ish). Membranes might drop it a little if you can find the reflection points that cause the majority of it, but I'd think the panels you'd need to drop 8dB would have to be huge.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2022 9:33:40 GMT -6
^^^^^ This he is absolutely correct you would be giving up substantial floor space to reduce that much at 40HZ.
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Post by jmoose on Aug 24, 2022 13:58:35 GMT -6
^^^ YES! Agreed. Having things neat, tidy and serviceable cannot be overstated. This leads to comfort and less stress which leads to greater creativity which leads to better music. To also add to the above, having cables that are not TOO long is critical for the neat / tidy thing as well. If you need 4 snakes that are 10' long, and you end up with 4 snakes that are 35' long, it's a serious bummer. It's one (not the only, but one) of the reasons I've gone to interchangeable Elco interconnects for all my racks. It makes them easy to move to a different location. Just change a pair of interconnects for up to 24 I/o and go! A day long job becomes a 5 minute job. Wiring and interfacing a studio is so important. So simple, so complex, and so critical. Not to be overlooked or underestimated. I wasn't necessarily thinking cable/snake length... its a factor sure but really more about building in extra channels & room for expansion. Lets say that sidecar rack as of now is 8 channels of gear? 8 channels out 8 back is a 16 pair snake. While that works if your going putting in the time & investment in buying new cable & terminating patchbays? Cable is way cheaper then labor. Go big! I'd run for at least 16 channels of gear... 32 pair snake. 16 out & 16 back to the patchbays. That way if down the road a couple of big mono units, like pultec klones get swapped for a 500 rack & other things that need 6-8 channels instead of two we're not reinventing the wheel. Often a great solution is to put tie lines on the outboard rack. Get a single space panel, drop in 8 channels of TRS patch points that show up on the main bay. Then we can accommodate anything that isn't permanently bolted in. On the trapping & 40Hz..? Right only way to address that is with some massive Tom Hidley style bass traps. Rip out walls, build a 4 or 5 foot deep trap and put a false wall in front of it. Can only bend the laws of physics so much, and often not as much as we'd like.
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2022 15:54:25 GMT -6
^^^ YES! Agreed. Having things neat, tidy and serviceable cannot be overstated. This leads to comfort and less stress which leads to greater creativity which leads to better music. To also add to the above, having cables that are not TOO long is critical for the neat / tidy thing as well. If you need 4 snakes that are 10' long, and you end up with 4 snakes that are 35' long, it's a serious bummer. It's one (not the only, but one) of the reasons I've gone to interchangeable Elco interconnects for all my racks. It makes them easy to move to a different location. Just change a pair of interconnects for up to 24 I/o and go! A day long job becomes a 5 minute job. Wiring and interfacing a studio is so important. So simple, so complex, and so critical. Not to be overlooked or underestimated. I wasn't necessarily thinking cable/snake length... its a factor sure but really more about building in extra channels & room for expansion. Lets say that sidecar rack as of now is 8 channels of gear? 8 channels out 8 back is a 16 pair snake. While that works if your going putting in the time & investment in buying new cable & terminating patchbays? Cable is way cheaper then labor. Go big! I'd run for at least 16 channels of gear... 32 pair snake. 16 out & 16 back to the patchbays. That way if down the road a couple of big mono units, like pultec klones get swapped for a 500 rack & other things that need 6-8 channels instead of two we're not reinventing the wheel. Often a great solution is to put tie lines on the outboard rack. Get a single space panel, drop in 8 channels of TRS patch points that show up on the main bay. Then we can accommodate anything that isn't permanently bolted in. On the trapping & 40Hz..? Right only way to address that is with some massive Tom Hidley style bass traps. Rip out walls, build a 4 or 5 foot deep trap and put a false wall in front of it. Can only bend the laws of physics so much, and often not as much as we'd like. I never wire directly to gear - gear is always terminated at 2 - 4 female Elco's on the rear of the rack. Always 24 in 24 out no matter how little there is in the rack at that point. That makes it easy to hook up 24 in/out or 48 in/out depending on what's in the rack. Always room for growth. Almost always 24 i/o is enough. 2-4 interconnects is all it takes. Done. Longer/Shorter/Whatever. It is all reconfigured in minutes.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2022 16:31:59 GMT -6
^^^ YES! Agreed. Having things neat, tidy and serviceable cannot be overstated. This leads to comfort and less stress which leads to greater creativity which leads to better music. To also add to the above, having cables that are not TOO long is critical for the neat / tidy thing as well. If you need 4 snakes that are 10' long, and you end up with 4 snakes that are 35' long, it's a serious bummer. It's one (not the only, but one) of the reasons I've gone to interchangeable Elco interconnects for all my racks. It makes them easy to move to a different location. Just change a pair of interconnects for up to 24 I/o and go! A day long job becomes a 5 minute job. Wiring and interfacing a studio is so important. So simple, so complex, and so critical. Not to be overlooked or underestimated. I wasn't necessarily thinking cable/snake length... its a factor sure but really more about building in extra channels & room for expansion. Lets say that sidecar rack as of now is 8 channels of gear? 8 channels out 8 back is a 16 pair snake. While that works if your going putting in the time & investment in buying new cable & terminating patchbays? Cable is way cheaper then labor. Go big! I'd run for at least 16 channels of gear... 32 pair snake. 16 out & 16 back to the patchbays. That way if down the road a couple of big mono units, like pultec klones get swapped for a 500 rack & other things that need 6-8 channels instead of two we're not reinventing the wheel. Often a great solution is to put tie lines on the outboard rack. Get a single space panel, drop in 8 channels of TRS patch points that show up on the main bay. Then we can accommodate anything that isn't permanently bolted in. On the trapping & 40Hz..? Right only way to address that is with some massive Tom Hidley style bass traps. Rip out walls, build a 4 or 5 foot deep trap and put a false wall in front of it. Can only bend the laws of physics so much, and often not as much as we'd like. Snake and consoles always buy more than you need right now, unless you like putting money in your favorite gearpimps pocket.
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Post by bchurch on Aug 26, 2022 5:26:46 GMT -6
I have some Seismic Audio db25 cables that I needed in a pinch and honestly? I think they're absolutely fine. I don't really think about it - like, I don't patch in anything on inputs/outputs 25-32 on my interface and think, "huhwhuh? what's with the cables?!?!?!"
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Post by Omicron9 on Aug 29, 2022 10:55:44 GMT -6
Just bought on amazon/received one of the World's Best Cables. TRS 20' GAC4 with Neutrik black/gold TRS connectors. Excellent cable. Cost was $30. I can't even buy the raw cable and parts from Redco for that amount. Next time I need a cable or two, it will be the WBC cables. I'm impressed. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated in any way with either company mentioned here. I've been a loyal Redco customer for probably 20 years. To seawell: thank you for suggesting WBC. -09
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Post by seawell on Aug 29, 2022 11:00:32 GMT -6
Just bought on amazon/received one of the World's Best Cables. TRS 20' GAC4 with Neutrik black/gold TRS connectors. Excellent cable. Cost was $30. I can't even buy the raw cable and parts from Redco for that amount. Next time I need a cable or two, it will be the WBC cables. I'm impressed. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated in any way with either company mentioned here. I've been a loyal Redco customer for probably 20 years. To seawell : thank you for suggesting WBC. -09 You're very welcome! Same here, no affiliation and a long time redco customer. The extended wait times over the past couple of years with redco got me looking elsewhere and I stumbled upon worlds best cables.
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Post by Omicron9 on Aug 29, 2022 11:27:28 GMT -6
Just bought on amazon/received one of the World's Best Cables. TRS 20' GAC4 with Neutrik black/gold TRS connectors. Excellent cable. Cost was $30. I can't even buy the raw cable and parts from Redco for that amount. Next time I need a cable or two, it will be the WBC cables. I'm impressed. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated in any way with either company mentioned here. I've been a loyal Redco customer for probably 20 years. To seawell : thank you for suggesting WBC. -09 You're very welcome! Same here, no affiliation and a long time redco customer. The extended wait times over the past couple of years with redco got me looking elsewhere and I stumbled upon worlds best cables. seawell, I've made all the cables in my studio (literally dozens) except the snakes, and all using parts from Redco. I always use either Mogami 2534, or GAC-3 or GAC-4. I can solder very well, but for me soldering is a mind-numbing nightmare of hellish tedium. I also feel like it's taking me away from doing something constructive and creative, even tho I seem to need cables to do so; hence I know it's time well-spent, but man, I just hate spending an evening with a soldering iron. WBC is such a welcome alternative. The same cable and parts, pre-made, and for either about the same or in some cases, less than the cost of the parts. Ahhhh...... <exhaled sigh of relief> Thanks again, seawell. -09
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