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Post by EmRR on Aug 2, 2022 12:20:18 GMT -6
With respect, I suggest that long listening is for the artist, mixer and producer to make creative decisions. Mastering is less creative and more quality control, spectral balancing for translation, album cohesiveness and tonal enhancement. The role of the ME is different from the rest of the people involved. If the creative decisions haven't already been made before getting to mastering then perhaps it's not ready yet. If you don't appreciate what mastering is and what it is not then you will continue to be disappointed. It's a different mindset from recording and mixing, and should have different expectations. this ^
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Post by EmRR on Aug 2, 2022 12:30:44 GMT -6
My dream would be if an online mastering engineer spent extra time listening to the mix, had great customer service and picked up the phone, and really let themselves get deep into the song, mix, lyrics, before touching anything. Maybe they even want to know the band bio. Our perceptions are based on so many factors. Maybe they just got done mastering a super loud hip hop masterpiece where everything is over produced and slammin, they are all amped up from that and then they put on my folk rock track with room mics and they wish they could change the channel. But they work through it anyway, because they need to make money, it comes out way too loud and bright and they are just happy to move on. Then you ask them for a revision, their gonna say it needs to be remixed. I know this happens a lot these days Now imagine attending the session, the guy sees you.. you tell him about the song, he builds a backstory, his mind can connect to the song, and it’s going to go a different route with you there You're dreaming of significant time input that most won't pay for. The good guys don't need that much time to get it right having never heard it. Anyone who turns down a reasonable revision request should never be used again, and probably not paid for the incomplete work. They aren't professionals, they probably aren't any good at what they claim to do, or aren't charging enough.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 2, 2022 13:47:41 GMT -6
Thinking about what artistic things can even BE done in mastering that'd benefit from being immersed in the song. I could add reverb or automate the mix level. Maybe process some song sections differently from others. I've done those things, rarely. Not much else I can think of. Practically nothing compared to what can be done in recording/mixing. And many clients would object to me doing those things because it's generally not my place to be so invasive. Like the guy earlier in this thread complaining about MEs who tamper with the mix too much.
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Post by christopher on Aug 2, 2022 22:01:22 GMT -6
I did a terrible job explaining myself earlier, and I apologize. The mastering engineers here are great, I’m really venting about the majority of the ones who aren’t here that I’ve used, and really it’s not their fault: we’ve been told this is how it is supposed to go. I guess I started asking myself: why? Was it always this way?
This is a recent discovery, learning that it used to be either a producer or band member would fly with the tapes to attend the mastering session. Or maybe a rapport was built where they no longer had to.
Another reality: in the old days you had to talk on the phone.
So either way, a 3 minute phone call would take pages of text to write out, a bunch of Q&A could be covered, really simple dumb stuff. That’s all gone now.
Today my experience is: I send a short email of a few sentences: wait in anxiety for any response.
Next day: maybe a response.. of one or two sentences with a price attached.
I respond with a question: wait in anxiety for a response
Next day: a couple sentences in response with options and upsell prices.
I respond and send a payment with links: did you get them? How long? Any thoughts?
Next day: no response, wait in anxiety 24/7 doing mental backflips
Next day: a single sentence: got payment will start the process
Time passes: anxiety., worry,… concern
Email: files ready
mastering engineer waits in anxiety and concern
Check the files out… ok, interesting choice… I’ve heard it this way because I know this song inside and out, as I’ve been working on it for months… and purposefully chose not to go this route becaus it highlights weaknesses in the talent and detracts from communicating the intention of the song this way.
Compose an email.. how do I explain this in a couple sentences? I try…
Mastering engineer: defensive with up charges attached
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 2, 2022 22:28:38 GMT -6
dammmmmmn. That's wild. I don't do most things past -10. But I guess would and could if needed. So much for the loudness wars being over. Definitely not over. Just check Spotify "new releases" with normalization turned off. -6 LUFS is a common max short term LUFS these days, with integrated LUFS coming in around -8. I don't master to the meters but I often end up about 1 to 2dB softer than that while maintaining good punch and dynamic feel. Most clients are happy with that loudness. If the tone is balanced and lively then you don't need quite as much limiting. Yeah true. I guess I just don't like doing it I suppose. I usually do -10 Short term which ends up around -14 to -12 depending on the tune. I just don't like squeezing stuff that much if I have to. I also try and tell folks that platforms are expecting that loudness now and there isn't much point to louder anymore. I don't get much push back on that usually. I did a terrible job explaining myself earlier, and I apologize. The mastering engineers here are great, I’m really venting about the majority of the ones who aren’t here that I’ve used, and really it’s not their fault: we’ve been told this is how it is supposed to go. I guess I started asking myself: why? Was it always this way? This is recent discovery, learning that it used to be either a producer or band member would fly with the tapes to attend the mastering session. Or maybe a rapport was built where they no longer had to. Another reality: in the old days you had to talk on the phone. So either way, a 3 minute phone call would take pages of text of write out, a bunch of Q&A could be covered, really simple dumb stuff. That’s all gone now. Today my experience is: I send a short email of a few sentences: wait in anxiety for any response. Next day: maybe a response.. of one or two sentences with a price attached. I respond with a question: wait in anxiety for a response Next day: a couple sentences in response with options and upsell prices. I respond and send a payment with links: did you get them? How long? Any thoughts? Next day: no response, wait in anxiety 24/7 doing mental backflips Next day: a single sentence: got payment will start the process Time passes: anxiety., worry,… concern Email: files ready mastering engineer waits in anxiety and concern Check the files out… ok, interesting choice… I’ve heard it this way because I know this song inside and out, as I’ve been working on it for months… and purposefully chose not to go this route becaus it highlights weaknesses in the talent and detracts from communicating the intention of the song this way. Compose an email.. how do I explain this in a couple sentences? I try… Mastering engineer: defensive with up charges attached Yeah I've seen that happen to clients I've mixed for. Never fun. But you just want better communication is all which is understandable. Hell I usually am struggling to get artists to give me enough info lol But this makes sense. Your first one didn't, that came off as a major investment of time and would make it like $500-800 a track haha
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 23:56:13 GMT -6
I did a terrible job explaining myself earlier, and I apologize. The mastering engineers here are great, I’m really venting about the majority of the ones who aren’t here that I’ve used, and really it’s not their fault: we’ve been told this is how it is supposed to go. I guess I started asking myself: why? Was it always this way? This is a recent discovery, learning that it used to be either a producer or band member would fly with the tapes to attend the mastering session. Or maybe a rapport was built where they no longer had to. Another reality: in the old days you had to talk on the phone. So either way, a 3 minute phone call would take pages of text to write out, a bunch of Q&A could be covered, really simple dumb stuff. That’s all gone now. Today my experience is: I send a short email of a few sentences: wait in anxiety for any response. Next day: maybe a response.. of one or two sentences with a price attached. I respond with a question: wait in anxiety for a response Next day: a couple sentences in response with options and upsell prices. I respond and send a payment with links: did you get them? How long? Any thoughts? Next day: no response, wait in anxiety 24/7 doing mental backflips Next day: a single sentence: got payment will start the process Time passes: anxiety., worry,… concern Email: files ready mastering engineer waits in anxiety and concern Check the files out… ok, interesting choice… I’ve heard it this way because I know this song inside and out, as I’ve been working on it for months… and purposefully chose not to go this route becaus it highlights weaknesses in the talent and detracts from communicating the intention of the song this way. Compose an email.. how do I explain this in a couple sentences? I try… Mastering engineer: defensive with up charges attached That’s pretty typical in this era of brickwalling, clipping, and “secret sauce” modern tube goop.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 3, 2022 9:36:42 GMT -6
I did a terrible job explaining myself earlier, and I apologize. The mastering engineers here are great, I’m really venting about the majority of the ones who aren’t here that I’ve used, and really it’s not their fault: we’ve been told this is how it is supposed to go. I guess I started asking myself: why? Was it always this way? This is a recent discovery, learning that it used to be either a producer or band member would fly with the tapes to attend the mastering session. Or maybe a rapport was built where they no longer had to. Another reality: in the old days you had to talk on the phone. So either way, a 3 minute phone call would take pages of text to write out, a bunch of Q&A could be covered, really simple dumb stuff. That’s all gone now. Today my experience is: I send a short email of a few sentences: wait in anxiety for any response. Next day: maybe a response.. of one or two sentences with a price attached. I respond with a question: wait in anxiety for a response Next day: a couple sentences in response with options and upsell prices. I respond and send a payment with links: did you get them? How long? Any thoughts? Next day: no response, wait in anxiety 24/7 doing mental backflips Next day: a single sentence: got payment will start the process Time passes: anxiety., worry,… concern Email: files ready mastering engineer waits in anxiety and concern Check the files out… ok, interesting choice… I’ve heard it this way because I know this song inside and out, as I’ve been working on it for months… and purposefully chose not to go this route becaus it highlights weaknesses in the talent and detracts from communicating the intention of the song this way. Compose an email.. how do I explain this in a couple sentences? I try… Mastering engineer: defensive with up charges attached Thanks, that's much more clear. First thing: Get some Xanax man! JK Second: If that's your experience then keep shopping around until you find someone who doesn't give you anxiety or treat you that way. It shouldn't feel like that at all. Third: You're here in the Bay Area, right? There are plenty of options for attended sessions here. No need for you to do online mastering if you dislike that process. Some clients prefer attending. No problem. Most prefer the convenience of not attending. No problem. It's up to the client which way to go. Either way, once you find the right ME for you it should be a painless, dare I say enjoyable experience. No stress, just good sounding music. I can tell you that for me, if it's an unattended session, then email is better than phone calls because I have a written record of the conversation. I'm dealing with a number of clients at the same time and relying on memory from a phone call is risky. If a lot of interaction is needed then I prefer attended sessions because even a phone call pales compared to being in the room.
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Post by bossanova on Aug 3, 2022 10:03:21 GMT -6
With respect, I suggest that long listening is for the artist, mixer and producer to make creative decisions. Mastering is less creative and more quality control, spectral balancing for translation, album cohesiveness and tonal enhancement. The role of the ME is different from the rest of the people involved. If the creative decisions haven't already been made before getting to mastering then perhaps it's not ready yet. If you don't appreciate what mastering is and what it is not then you will continue to be disappointed. It's a different mindset from recording and mixing, and should have different expectations. this ^ I still like Mixerman's analogy that a good mastering engineer is akin to a professional art framer: they use their expertise and detached perspective to present a work of art in a way that highlights and enhances what's already there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2022 10:54:18 GMT -6
I still like Mixerman's analogy that a good mastering engineer is akin to a professional art framer: they use their expertise and detached perspective to present a work of art in a way that highlights and enhances what's already there. Yes but then loudness war is like scanning a painting, making it the resolution of a CRT TV, and then blowing it up to the size of the canvas and hoping it doesn’t all look like shit.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 3, 2022 11:11:36 GMT -6
I still like Mixerman's analogy that a good mastering engineer is akin to a professional art framer: they use their expertise and detached perspective to present a work of art in a way that highlights and enhances what's already there. Yes but then loudness war is like scanning a painting, making it the resolution of a CRT TV, and then blowing it up to the size of the canvas and hoping it doesn’t all look like shit. Actually Mixerman likes to slam his mixes for loudness before mastering in order to limit the ME's options, thus maintaining more control over the final results. He's not alone in that. A number of top tier mixers do that. The paintings are blown up already sometimes. MEs are not the main impetus for the loudness war. Clients are.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 4, 2022 2:39:14 GMT -6
For me now with all that is music production and digital delivery in 2022. My approach to “mastering” has changed.
I have adopted way more onto my stereo mix bus.
HEDD 192 > VCA comp > Phoenix Mastering Plus vari MU > The Swift tube EQ > HEDD 192 (tape and pentode FX) > Cubase.
When I’ve finished a mix - I’ve finished the mix and it sounds exactly the way I want it to sound.
All the magic, depth, tone, impact and vibe are right there baked with total confidence and zero compromise into my stereo file.
Then at the mastering stage if anything more than a 0.5db to 1db EQ move is needed something went wrong for me at the mix stage.
The files get this gentlest of hands with EQ to match tracks with a nudge here or there - sometimes a few tracks even get a flat transfer!
Then 1dB of mastering compression care of Sonoris Mastering compression (it has a unique gelling envelope) and 1-3db of my beloved TC Brickwall limiter and the jobs done.
My approach has definitely evolved over the last 10 years.
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