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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2022 12:01:23 GMT -6
Let's do this.. Genelec 8341: (Price offered 5,200 Euro's / 5,309 USD) Let's start with the positives, GLM is simply put fantastic. Once calibrated you have the option to receive a report detailing all of the issues in your room plus some handy positioning guides. It even gives recommendations and ways to improve your setup, I have REW and ARC 3 to compare results against but it seemed pretty accurate. I had to incorporate a wind down curve for the treble which knocked 4dB off the top because they're very bright out of the box. However my room didn't like the rear ports being positioned almost towards the ceiling, GLM corrected for it but with a sealed or front ported my room is +-4dB down to 35Hz (+-2dB for mids and treble). The correction factor with these were nearly 18dB for 60Hz downwards which was quite surprising.. Apart from that my conclusion is that the Genelec "the one's" are okay, better than the LYD's for sure but in terms of LMF to mid range clarity and sound stage (phantom centre etc.) the Core 59's are far better even if that comes with a few compromises. Also they're expensive and I'm still not a fan of metal tweeters, although I could honestly see the 8341's being the perfect nearfield for those in a less than ideal room. Due to their size they'd also be perfect for mobile tracking and to be fair there's no reason why I couldn't get a translatable mix from them (in fact I did try and after a few corrections plus some adaption time there were no issues), ultimately though for the price I just wasn't that impressed. Dynaudio Core 59: (Price offered 4,810 Euro's / 4,911 USD) The 59's certainly rely on their DSP to correct things, out of the box they appear overly bright and in terms of phase alignment completely inconsistent. That being said a -2dB dip on the treble and a couple of positioning switches later and oh my word. Besides from PSI and ATC these are potentially some of the best monitors I've heard, mid range clarity is incredible, bass and LMF is perfectly defined, there's no trace of distortion at levels that'll keep your hearing in a near / midfield position. The phantom centre / stereo field will stand up to the likes of Geithain, I wish they had something like Geithain's cardioid bass dispersion technology but hey they're a lot cheaper. I spotted so many issues with various mixes through the Core 59's and everything was simple to correct, I recieved more information from them than my three sets of headphones and didn't even bother to use my mixcubes. The 59’s when tested translated perfectly fine.. So, I haven't really got anything bad to say about them but this is a review so I will go out of my way to find things. For a start their physical size / weight is kind of crazy for anything but a soffit mount. Also they really could have done with some waveguides, again just like the ATC approach their success will entirely depend on your room. DSP is fine to an extent but just to reiterate the 59’s bass dispersion in my cave studio is a bit wonky (that's a technical term). I have to move back another meter from the listening position (1.5 - 2M) to really get the full effect which due to their ridiculous sweet spot and power isn't much of an issue, it's just annoying.
One more thing to add, I'm not a fan of pulling out the unprotected drivers to mount them in a horizontal position. Even if you slip with the magnetic caps out of the box you're going to damage the cone. Be very careful.. Seriously, I don't know why Dynaudio don't offer these in a horizontal setup straight out of the box?
Previously quite a few people asked why I didn't just go for the ATC SCM 25's? Well, besides from bass there's the cost, the SCM 25's are 9,165 Euro's / 9,537 USD in my neck of the woods, that's over $4.5K more expensive. In the US prices are slightly closer but check out Thomann US, the Core 59's are $4998.00.. Neumann KH310: (Price offered 4,112 Euro's / 4,198 USD) Hmm, what's there to say about the Neumann's that already hasn't been said? Accurate bass / LMF and decent mid range clarity if not a bit dry. I found them slightly laid back in terms of HF response (which is a positive I guess?) but compared to the Core 59's they came off a bit boxy sounding. The stereo imaging isn't as sharp as the Genelec's or Core 59's and overall they did struggle to compete in this test. Although the KH310's are extremely good monitors, every single one of these including the LYD 48's are. However it's the price of the Neumman's not the monitors themselves that I have the biggest issue with. Now they're on the street personally I'd just save up another $700.00 and buy the Core 59's.. LYD 48: (Price at purchase 1,600 Euro's / 1,633 USD) The LYD's were my main monitors for about 5 years, out of 30 sets in the lower end these remained triumphant all the way through but unfortunately the Core 59's absolutely crushed them. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, over many moons I've had no issues with the LYD's and there's quite a few artists on this board like Ragan or Mcirish creating incredible sounding songs with them. Fact of the matter is these are $1.6K monitors that simply put don't belong in this test. Don't get me wrong they put up a good fight, the Neumann's are better but only in some area's by a certain amount. Tested against other $2K options and the LYD's mid / treble clarity / stereo imaging and bass response is rather impressive, the Core's however improve on every aspect. LMF's have far more clarity, stereo imaging is massive in comparison, instead of phantom centre they should call the 59's phantom surround sound, bass is far more defined and they just sound larger, less boxy and critical analysis is far easier. Although shouldn't that be the case? The Core 59's cost nearly $3.3K more, if they weren't at least twice as good what's the point of them?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2022 12:47:04 GMT -6
Reserved for the HEDD Type 20's, they'll be arriving next week.
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Post by mcirish on Jul 25, 2022 16:07:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the reviews and thoughts on these monitors. I wish my wallet was as excited as my eyes were to read the reviews. ha! I really would like to have the Core 59's, but I don't think that's going to happen unless some of my music starts selling higher numbers. The end result might not justify the price difference, though I'm sure I would enjoy them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2022 10:43:29 GMT -6
Well, because I like to be super decisive I've added the ATC SCM25's, 45's, PSI A-23M, D&D 8C studio and the KH420's to the list. I'll be testing them at a different location and taking the two winners back to urr compare against the LYD's although unless someone specifically asks I'll forgo including them in the review.
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Post by Quint on Jul 28, 2022 11:38:01 GMT -6
Well, because I like to be super decisive I've added the ATC SCM25's, 45's, PSI A-23M, D&D 8C studio and the KH420's to the list. I'll be testing them at a different location and taking the two winners back to urr compare against the LYD's although unless someone specifically asks I'll forgo including them in the review. I'd be real curious about those ATCs. Actually, I'd be curious about all of these new candidates.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2022 12:08:18 GMT -6
It'll be a couple of weeks at least before I can get a demo room and the monitors sorted out. Until then back to the music..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 30, 2022 13:56:30 GMT -6
Well, because I like to be super decisive I've added the ATC SCM25's, 45's, PSI A-23M, D&D 8C studio and the KH420's to the list. I'll be testing them at a different location and taking the two winners back to urr compare against the LYD's although unless someone specifically asks I'll forgo including them in the review. Danny Maybe it’s time to give the folks at Quested a call and go all in on a custom rig😜
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 14:08:05 GMT -6
Maybe it’s time to give the folks at Quested a call and go all in on a custom rig😜 In for a penny and all that jazz..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2022 19:16:49 GMT -6
So, this external bout of testing was going to take too long. Nearly two months in total and I need my studio completed at every level so I asked for the final invoice. I was pretty shocked, the Core's retail price usually demands a $1700.00 premium over the Neumann KH310's. There was only $50.00 difference, that for me made the Core 59's a no brainer.. However I'm never satisfied so I tested out the ATC SCM25's.
I'll be blunt, there really wasn't much in it. Of course they don't sound the same but in terms of imaging, clarity etc. I didn't rate one over the other and decisions in terms of preferences stemmed from a matter of practicality. The ATC's are better nearfield monitors, they're smaller than the Dyn's and it turns out my room likes boundary loading so they worked like a charm.
The Dyn's ideally need to be at least 2M / 6.5ft away and they take up a lot of real estate but due to DSP they get along with a wider variety of rooms. I tried the ATC's in my large tracking room and they didn't quite perform as well. Apart from that I'm not sure what else I can say? In terms of performance they're both great but if you're looking at ATC it might be worth giving the Core 59's a demo too.
Awesome, I think it's time to end this test.. It was an adventure and in the end I chose the Dyn's even though they only just work in my 14.5 X 13 room. Any smaller and I'd be tempted to look into something else.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 20:59:04 GMT -6
So, a couple of month update. I still need to try the Core 59's in a horizontal position, taking them apart and rotating the tweeter is giving me the wibbles seen as they're are a $6K set of speakers but it's on my list to do. Thankfully I have an adjustable chair so it's okay for now but it needs doing.
Anywho, I think my biggest "issue" with them is they're a bit dry and boring. Extremely analytical, massive stereo field, seriously tight bass, low distortion and you can hear stuff that monitors costing far more couldn't deliver. Although again, boring.. That being said when the novelty wears off and you start "experimenting" which generally leads to discovery time. Anyway in my old studio I had some Event Opal's and some big ass hi-fi speakers for client listening. Y'know something that's utterly inaccurate but makes you feel bass through your spine and gives you the "feels".
Sometimes you wanna rock out and I asked myself are these really the "all-purpose" speakers I want? Well, I just said screw it and upped the LF 15dB on my board hoping they wouldn't bust a tweeter.. Let's just say the headroom on these things are simply nuts. Bass tweeter wasn't even flexing, LMF is still magnitudes clearer than my previous LYD-48's and I'm sat here laughing at the level of overkill these things are for a home studio, even if you have a 27 X 17 X 9.5 room. I've tested them in a 14 X 12 X 9.5 room as well and they were absolutely fine, they are certainly far more finicky about placement and setup than the LYD's, Genelec's, Geithain's etc. were and the dip switches are a necessity but they're sort of like the TLM-170. Not necessarily the most impressive out the box but infinetely flexible. But of course they also do the flat, boring, studio thing very well too.
Just a note though, I'd rather these speakers be overkill than a compromise. IMO there shouldn't ever be much in the way of guessing..
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Post by drumsound on Oct 1, 2022 22:16:21 GMT -6
I thought you were going with the ATCs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 23:17:04 GMT -6
Did you ever get to hear the hedd 20s?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 23:32:16 GMT -6
Did you ever get to hear the hedd 20s? Unfortunately I did not..
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 1, 2022 23:37:12 GMT -6
The thing about good (?) headphones is they take the room and positioning anomalies out of the question, you just have to learn them and how they translate including soundstage. Now donning flamesuit aussi !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 16:56:08 GMT -6
The thing about good (?) headphones is they take the room and positioning anomalies out of the question, you just have to learn them and how they translate including soundstage. Now donning flamesuit aussi ! Exactly and to be fair at a certain price point monitors become a matter of preference. They're all very different but in a technical sense there's no glaring issues with any of them, now admittedly due to having the LYD-48's for years I'm very much already in the Dynaudio camp. However it was truly impressive to take those Beyer's off my ears and only hear a small(ish) difference (probably due to parastic (room) losses and design). That rarely happens, usually sets of headphones / monitors sound wildly different.
Yes, the Core's have a better stereo spread, phantom centre / seperation and everything is a bit clearer down the middle but in my testing the Beyer's faired well against some pretty expensive monitors in the $3 - 6K range. That just raised a lot of questions, including room treatment this whole venture can get pricey and with a pair of decent closed backs it makes you wonder if the investment was worth it? I had to reach this stage to realise but its been interesting nevertheless. I must say it's an experience having the room shake and your derrier rumble though, in terms of smiles can's don't have the same effect.
Anyway the Core 59's (like the LYD's) IMO have a price vs. performance advantage and yes I can certainly see the appeal of ATC / PSI, for some nothing else will do and I'm sure some won't like either the 59's or the DTX 700 Pro X's. That being said if you're looking in that direction I would certainly add the 59's to the demo list, they're IMO worth a try at least and ultimately I'm glad that I decided to stick with them.
In terms of headphones (again) it's re-assuring that I can move between the two without having to second guess myself, the Core's translate well to other mediums so if I decide to skip the studio and work from the sofa I don't have to worry about it being completely wrong. I'll remove my other post because this explains everything much better..
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Post by mcirish on Oct 3, 2022 9:17:40 GMT -6
I'm still very jealous about the 59's. I have LYD48 and Air 6 Dynaudios. The 59's are a dream but a financially non-doable dream currently. I think Dynadio speakers are a love it or hate it kind of thing. I know some people don't like them. I've found them to be fairly accurate and non-fatiguing. That's very important if I have to mix for 8-10 hours. The tweeters in the Dynaudios just sound nice and smooth. I still hope to have extra cash someday for the Core 59's, but for now, the LYD48's are doing a great job.
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Post by ericn on Oct 3, 2022 9:43:26 GMT -6
I'm still very jealous about the 59's. I have LYD48 and Air 6 Dynaudios. The 59's are a dream but a financially non-doable dream currently. I think Dynadio speakers are a love it or hate it kind of thing. I know some people don't like them. I've found them to be fairly accurate and non-fatiguing. That's very important if I have to mix for 8-10 hours. The tweeters in the Dynaudios just sound nice and smooth. I still hope to have extra cash someday for the Core 59's, but for now, the LYD48's are doing a great job. All speakers are a love it or hate it. Most are a love hate relationship after the honeymoon period, maybe we need speaker relationship consultants.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 3, 2022 10:06:30 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 13:21:11 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear. Many modern monitors are way worse than NS10m Studio at all price points. Many use shitty heavy woofers, have gross ports, and ringing metal tweeters. They not reactive to your changes, always sound like the speaker, and the overly complex crossovers suck the life out of them and eat into the low headroom of the shitty plate amps.
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Post by ericn on Oct 3, 2022 20:03:47 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear. You don't listen to monsters you listen through monitors. You lean what they get right and what they get wrong. Some speakers are just easier to learn for particular individuals.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 4, 2022 1:21:28 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear. The main reason I bought ATC SCM 25's was simply I'm time limited making music and they allow me to make very rapid tracking, arranging and mixing decisions. They are specifically engineered to be brutally honest, the mid driver alone is literally X-Ray vision into a mix. They "scream" at you, if something is even slightly off - there's no second guessing. You get to spot on very, very quickly. From a single clashing bass note to an inappropriately voiced chord to the level, pan and EQ masking of every single element of the mix. That's a big part of what you pay for. Speed. That simple in my book. Previously I used Klein and Hummel 0300's I had them for 12 years and even after all that time I still felt myself swimming around in a sea of indecision so everything took way, way longer and needed multiple cross referencing with other systems and HD600 headphones, it was tedious for me. Not any more, the best decision I ever made for my music making was investing in ATC 25's. Talk about a breath of fresh air!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2022 7:00:35 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear. They "scream" at you, if something is even slightly off - there's no second guessing. You get to spot on very, very quickly. So do the Dyn's unfortunately and it doesn't do much for one's previous mixing attempts. Then again it doesn't do much for a few extremely popular pro mixes either to be fair.
It does make me question the whole buying via a scientific approach, as much as I enjoy reading technical details it wasn't those that scored the highest that put a lens on potential issues. Don't get me wrong some monitors are crap and they don't score well either but there's a fine line somewhere.
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Post by svart on Oct 10, 2022 7:08:01 GMT -6
Do you ever find it funny that we (or at least me) stress over monitors, yet some pretty OK mixes were done on NS10s. I'm not sure anyone can say that Bob Clearmountain was a hack at mixing, but his speaker choice was pretty sub-par by today's standards. I guess that just re-confirms that it's the Ears and not the Gear. Not really ears-vs.-gear to me.. It's how the monitors present the audio to the ears.. NS10's are fooling the ear a great deal, but the inverse loudness curve they present cause the ear and the brain to over-compensate in a way that makes a very pleasing result. Their tendency to boominess also tricks the user to mix with less low mids also helping to create mixes that work elsewhere on smaller speakers. I'd say that "ear-vs.-gear" would be much more applicable if we had some kind of perfectly ideal speaker that everyone used so that the only difference between engineers was their mix, not their setup.
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Post by RealNoob on Oct 10, 2022 8:28:32 GMT -6
I have the 48's and Genelec 8330s (Not the ones) here. I hated the Genelecs when they were as far back as the 48's. However, the longer I own them both, the more I am being drawn to the 8330s (with SAM). In a true nearfield configuration, they have unbelievable low end for such small monitors - no sub needed at all. They also sound more balanced when placed closer. What I mix on them sounds good on the 48's. Conversely, what I mix on the 48's may still have a bit of zinginess on the Genelecs.
Also, Genelecs are vocal up and 48's are vocal down. I tend to mix vocal up by default so mixing on the Genelecs aso makes the overall balance right, even on avantones. Weird how preference can change. I'm still heavily using references for this and likely the next album until truly settled.
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2022 8:34:09 GMT -6
I have the 48's and Genelec 8330s here. I hated the Genelecs when they were as far back as the 48's. However, the longer I own them both, the more I am being drawn to the 8330s (with SAM). In a true nearfield configuration, they have unbelievable low end for such small monitors - no sub needed at all. They also sound more balanced when placed closer. What I mix on them sounds good on the 48's. Conversely, what I mix on the 48's may still have a bit of zinginess on the Genelecs. Also, Genelecs are vocal up and 48's are vocal down. I tend to mix vocal up by default so mixing on the Genelecs aso makes the overall balance right, even on avantones. Weird how preference can change. I'm still heavily using references for this and likely the next album until truly settled. This what I always talk about you have to know your speakers, sounds like know both Rob. Plus you went through the fun (sic) of learning placement.
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