ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 22, 2022 5:46:48 GMT -6
I have yet to hear a dynamic beat a U87. Or any decent condenser for that matter..
Doesn't do too well with cookie monster vocals though..
You have to use a monster cable, or you might get sued.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 22, 2022 13:17:28 GMT -6
Gee I guess I now have to return all my Bad Company*/Marshall Crenshaw/Sinatra Reprise/Beach Boys/et al records... Where the studio lead vocals were cut on one of them pesky Shures. Even on a gold 546. But not my "Frampton Comes Alive"! Is there anyone else who... feels like I do? Chris *Got a later Paul Rodgers/Capitol story, if anyone wants to hear it. In any event my fave overall vocal microphones are within the 47 and 67 family. Along with the 44 Ribbon.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 22, 2022 13:30:16 GMT -6
I did just have an SM-7 win a shootout on a hard rock singer who's a serious belter. Sounds more focused on him, band-limiting and slower transients as a good thing? He sounded acceptable on about everything, but best on the SM-7. Go figure. I rarely use it anymore.
An RE-16 used for scratch vocals sounded perfect on another guy recently, the whole record is RE-16 leads.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2022 9:05:57 GMT -6
Gee I guess I now have to return all my Bad Company*/Marshall Crenshaw/Sinatra Reprise/Beach Boys/et al records... Where the studio lead vocals were cut on one of them pesky Shures. I suppose it depends what you're after, as EMRR said dynamics tend to be band limited and lack transient response. I generally prefer modern and detailed although it doesn't stop me from enjoying the vast array of vocal material recorded on dynamics. IME it's rare but sometimes a warts n' all condenser is the last thing you want, sonic fidelity and music holistically doesn't always fit hand in hand.
I still think specific decent condensers sound "better" than any dynamic I've come across, although that's not always to the benefit of the singer. I have a soft spot for the MD441, its general quality is exceptional and I can use it live or in the studio without issues. The top of the range ISK / 3U mic's give it a good run or beat it in some scenario's but apart from that I haven't found much that will contend for the same or less.
That's the other issue though, even two decades ago cheap condensers were generally horrible and dynamics could produce decent results for a fraction of the U87 or U67. The landscape has shifted quite a bit today. What isn't cheap is a decent space to use said condenser..
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2022 10:08:16 GMT -6
Gee I guess I now have to return all my Bad Company*/Marshall Crenshaw/Sinatra Reprise/Beach Boys/et al records... Where the studio lead vocals were cut on one of them pesky Shures. I suppose it depends what you're after, as EMRR said dynamics tend to be band limited and lack transient response. I generally prefer modern and detailed although it doesn't stop me from enjoying the vast array of vocal material recorded on dynamics. IME it's rare but sometimes a warts n' all condenser is the last thing you want, sonic fidelity and music holistically doesn't always fit hand in hand.
I still think specific decent condensers sound "better" than any dynamic I've come across, although that's not always to the benefit of the singer. I have a soft spot for the MD441, its general quality is exceptional and I can use it live or in the studio without issues. The top of the range ISK / 3U mic's give it a good run or beat it in some scenario's but apart from that I haven't found much that will contend for the same or less.
That's the other issue though, even two decades ago cheap condensers were generally horrible and dynamics could produce decent results for a fraction of the U87 or U67. The landscape has shifted quite a bit today. What isn't cheap is a decent space to use said condenser..
It is easier to find a top condenser that works, it usually takes more time to find the dynamic that fits, but if you find one it’s really tough to get a singer to try something different. Another factor is if the singer started live using dynamics they be accustomed to the band limiting and slight compression in a dynamic.
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Post by Ward on Jul 23, 2022 10:44:45 GMT -6
I did just have an SM-7 win a shootout on a hard rock singer who's a serious belter. Sounds more focused on him, band-limiting and slower transients as a good thing? He sounded acceptable on about everything, but best on the SM-7. Go figure. I rarely use it anymore. An RE-16 used for scratch vocals sounded perfect on another guy recently, the whole record is RE-16 leads. Dod you throw a vintage U87 up against the SM7? If not, see what you think! I did this on a couple of stoner metal sludge albums with the same singer. as the guide vocals done with the SM7 sounded almost passable. In the end the SM7 sounded like a reasonable facsimile of the U87, but made a much better hammer.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 23, 2022 11:25:24 GMT -6
Wow! Same singer as Doug had. What are the chances of that! I did have the experience of using a nice sounding $100(!) MDC (my infamous P120)... Over my good Buddy's vintage 87, when he recorded me. It sounded more "Everyman" and suited the specific song better. The U87 "featured" my voice objectively better, but sounded more musical. The P120 more "talky". LOL! Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jul 23, 2022 17:43:42 GMT -6
A question to singers on RGO. Who likes their own singing voice? Hmm... Upon further reflection. Two things (many times) bug me about my recorded voice. 1) Ssssibilance. 2) Not enough emotional delivery sometimes. Similar to Neanderthal DNA percentages today. When the playback is 10%+ Zombie. But not Rob Zombie. Live no one (usually) hears any sibilance. And any stage dancing helps camouflage the inner Zombie unDead. Am grateful for that! Chris
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 23, 2022 18:12:08 GMT -6
I like my singing more now than I ever have. I have been doing the specific exercises from Roger Love’s “Set Your Voice Free” for 8 or 9 months now and I have added a note or two range wise and just feel a lot more confident. That’s the biggest part.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2022 18:42:55 GMT -6
Dod you throw a vintage U87 up against the SM7? If not, see what you think! I did this on a couple of stoner metal sludge albums with the same singer. as the guide vocals done with the SM7 sounded almost passable. In the end the SM7 sounded like a reasonable facsimile of the U87, but made a much better hammer. They are pretty good hammers to be fair.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 23, 2022 18:48:46 GMT -6
Even MC Hammer? I admit some fondness for the typical dynamic, over the usual LDC. Why? It hides my normal "ess-iness". A Ref C, let alone a TLM 103? Yikes. Be afraid-be very afraid! Chris P.S. Somewhere buried in storage... Is my "Secrets Of Singing" Book/CD's. Nice complement to Love's excellent teaching.
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Post by bossanova on Jul 23, 2022 18:54:13 GMT -6
I have heard dynamics sound more desireable when I’m deliberately trying to hide something in a vocal recording, be it unwanted top end harshness or room ambiance. But, that comes at the cost of the “veil” over the vocal. If I’m in a room where the singer has a basic level of vocal control and can get at least a foot away from the mic with no sonic gremlins, it’s hard for the dynamic to beat a 67/87, in my experience.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 23, 2022 19:02:38 GMT -6
Yep. At least I do realize my understanding, is somewhat limited...
By my limited mic placement skill too. I'd love to get mic'd 2 or more feet away, like in the 'ol Motown Snake Pit sometime! Chris
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 24, 2022 2:18:28 GMT -6
I like my singing more now than I ever have. I have been doing the specific exercises from Roger Love’s “Set Your Voice Free” for 8 or 9 months now and I have added a note or two range wise and just feel a lot more confident. That’s the biggest part. I teach from Roger’s book, I rate his approach very highly. It’s similar to Seth Riggs speech level singing.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 24, 2022 2:26:59 GMT -6
I have heard dynamics sound more desireable when I’m deliberately trying to hide something in a vocal recording, be it unwanted top end harshness or room ambiance. But, that comes at the cost of the “veil” over the vocal. If I’m in a room where the singer has a basic level of vocal control and can get at least a foot away from the mic with no sonic gremlins, it’s hard for the dynamic to beat a 67/87, in my experience. Phil Collins recorded most of his lead vocals in their Surrey studio (The Farm - now sadly decommissioned and sold) using a Beyer M88 dynamic and an old Allan and Heath Limiter. The vocal area was a professionally acoustically designed space so the mic was opened up and Collins stood back from it as much as 3ft. No pop shield needed and I think some of those vocals he cut on those 80’s silver basket 88’s are really fantastic. I have an early 80’s silver basket M88 and I also have a very treated recording space, I’ve lately been trying the same approach of getting the gain up and standing right back no pop shield and I must say the results easily rival my Uber expensive Wunder CM7 or Blue Kiwi. A different sound definitely, but no less classy or musical. I still think the M88 gets a GOAT award.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 24, 2022 7:35:52 GMT -6
No because there ain’t one, but it handily beat the 67, UMT70S, Theirsh Blue mk47, RCA 44, and Samar MF-65. The RE-16 or RE-20. probably would have beat them all too. I did just have an SM-7 win a shootout on a hard rock singer who's a serious belter. Sounds more focused on him, band-limiting and slower transients as a good thing? He sounded acceptable on about everything, but best on the SM-7. Go figure. I rarely use it anymore. An RE-16 used for scratch vocals sounded perfect on another guy recently, the whole record is RE-16 leads. Dod you throw a vintage U87 up against the SM7? If not, see what you think! I did this on a couple of stoner metal sludge albums with the same singer. as the guide vocals done with the SM7 sounded almost passable. In the end the SM7 sounded like a reasonable facsimile of the U87, but made a much better hammer.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 24, 2022 9:00:52 GMT -6
I have heard dynamics sound more desireable when I’m deliberately trying to hide something in a vocal recording, be it unwanted top end harshness or room ambiance. But, that comes at the cost of the “veil” over the vocal. If I’m in a room where the singer has a basic level of vocal control and can get at least a foot away from the mic with no sonic gremlins, it’s hard for the dynamic to beat a 67/87, in my experience. Phil Collins recorded most of his lead vocals in their Surrey studio (The Farm - now sadly decommissioned and sold) using a Beyer M88 dynamic and an old Allan and Heath Limiter. The vocal area was a professionally acoustically designed space so the mic was opened up and Collins stood back from it as much as 3ft. No pop shield needed and I think some of those vocals he cut on those 80’s silver basket 88’s are really fantastic. I have an early 80’s silver basket M88 and I also have a very treated recording space, I’ve lately been trying the same approach of getting the gain up and standing right back no pop shield and I must say the results easily rival my Uber expensive Wunder CM7 or Blue Kiwi. A different sound definitely, but no less classy or musical. I still think the M88 gets a GOAT award. Can the M88 and 441 each get one? Out of the various EV Classics... EV 635a (I'm convinced RE 55 too)/RE20 are the best of the bunch on me. 767a is nice too. I had the RE15/16/666's for many years. Chris
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2022 19:18:51 GMT -6
No because there ain’t one, but it handily beat the 67, UMT70S, Theirsh Blue mk47, RCA 44, and Samar MF-65. The RE-16 or RE-20. probably would have beat them all too. As I said, it makes a good hammer but yours seems like a bit of a bully.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 24, 2022 19:29:45 GMT -6
Phil Collins recorded most of his lead vocals in their Surrey studio (The Farm - now sadly decommissioned and sold) using a Beyer M88 dynamic and an old Allan and Heath Limiter. The vocal area was a professionally acoustically designed space so the mic was opened up and Collins stood back from it as much as 3ft. No pop shield needed and I think some of those vocals he cut on those 80’s silver basket 88’s are really fantastic. I have an early 80’s silver basket M88 and I also have a very treated recording space, I’ve lately been trying the same approach of getting the gain up and standing right back no pop shield and I must say the results easily rival my Uber expensive Wunder CM7 or Blue Kiwi. A different sound definitely, but no less classy or musical. I still think the M88 gets a GOAT award. Can the M88 and 441 each get one? Out of the various EV Classics... EV 635a (I'm convinced RE 55 too)/RE20 are the best of the bunch on me. 767a is nice too. I had the RE15/16/666's for many years. Chris Chris if you can find one cheap Try a Steadman N90, literally the RE20 element without the variable D technology, so an RE20 with proximity effect that looks like a LDC side address,
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2022 21:28:59 GMT -6
I have an early 80’s silver basket M88 and I also have a very treated recording space, I’ve lately been trying the same approach of getting the gain up and standing right back no pop shield and I must say the results easily rival my Uber expensive Wunder CM7 or Blue Kiwi. A different sound definitely, but no less classy or musical. I need to try the M88 on vocals, it's currently stuck on a bass cab. Anyway, IME there's no specific formula for this and I'll straight up say that I prefer the ISK 2B Gen 2 over a U67 on my voice. Love the 67 on acoustic instruments but it's not my primary vocal mic.
The U67 only cost 15X more? Throughout the engineering cycle its been a matter of figuring out what works and price has never really factored too much into that equation. Some stuff is unavoidably expensive if you're chasing your own "style" whilst others remain modest but excel.
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Post by recordingengineer on Jul 24, 2022 22:39:24 GMT -6
Many years ago I bought a used N90 that obviously was dropped and grill dented. Even after a number years, I never could get along with it. I’ve heard nothing good things, so don’t know if it was defective. I eventually just let it go.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 25, 2022 10:34:02 GMT -6
I have yet to hear a dynamic beat a U87. Stevie Nicks?
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Post by chessparov on Jul 25, 2022 10:40:33 GMT -6
I agree. Back in her 441 heyday... Pretty dynamic. (Pretty and dynamic;) ) BTW belting out old Little Richard, helps cure my "Zombie" syndrome. Chrus
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Post by bossanova on Jul 25, 2022 14:07:32 GMT -6
Great, now y’all have me GAS-ing for an M88 to see if the tone and hypercardioid are an improvement on my Shures.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 25, 2022 17:08:35 GMT -6
Took 3 or 4 other microphones, for it to cover one M88. I foolishly sold mine around 20 years ago. Live and learn! Chris
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