ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 15, 2022 10:04:47 GMT -6
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Post by prene1 on Jul 15, 2022 19:36:51 GMT -6
The silver reverbs from acustica audio are nice. My trick for in ITB reverb has been also layering. I also run them out my interface through a few tape units and back in (depending on the record).
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2022 9:40:40 GMT -6
I use the free impulse responses of the M7 -- sounds great!
I'm curious if anyone has compared the IRs to the actual M7. ??
Not those particular IR's, but I have compared IR's to the hardware. That's what made me buy an M7. I was mid-mix and had been using the M7 IR's for awhile. Bricasti stopped by with an M7 and I changed out the sends to the IR's in my mix to the hardware. Took me about :30 sec to go hunting for my checkbook.....  |
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Post by plinker on Jul 16, 2022 11:30:09 GMT -6
I'm curious if anyone has compared the IRs to the actual M7. ??
Not those particular IR's, but I have compared IR's to the hardware. That's what made me buy an M7. I was mid-mix and had been using the M7 IR's for awhile. Bricasti stopped by with an M7 and I changed out the sends to the IR's in my mix to the hardware. Took me about :30 sec to go hunting for my checkbook..... Hah! OK -- well, that settles it. Thanks!!
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 16, 2022 22:51:17 GMT -6
It's not the reverb. Plenty of hits made with plugs. If you watch a lot of pros, they usually layer many delays and reverbs together for vocals. It's not uncommon to have a short slap-type delay, a ping-pong delay, an ambient reverb and a longer plate all on the vocals at the same time. Layering like this gives you something that no single reverb can do. We're not in the business of absolute reality. We're in the business of the illusion of realism and that tends to mean drastic measures to create "more real than real".
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2022 22:57:26 GMT -6
It's not the reverb. Plenty of hits made with plugs. If you watch a lot of pros, they usually layer many delays and reverbs together for vocals. It's not uncommon to have a short slap-type delay, a ping-pong delay, an ambient reverb and a longer plate all on the vocals at the same time. Layering like this gives you something that no single reverb can do. We're not in the business of absolute reality. We're in the business of the illusion of realism and that tends to mean drastic measures to create "more real than real".
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
Casey from Bricasti has explained the processing power of the M7 many times online. If you do a search I'm sure you can find one of them. The thing is powerful on the computing front. Designed far beyond its time. |
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Post by seawell on Jul 16, 2022 23:54:31 GMT -6
It's not the reverb. Plenty of hits made with plugs. If you watch a lot of pros, they usually layer many delays and reverbs together for vocals. It's not uncommon to have a short slap-type delay, a ping-pong delay, an ambient reverb and a longer plate all on the vocals at the same time. Layering like this gives you something that no single reverb can do. We're not in the business of absolute reality. We're in the business of the illusion of realism and that tends to mean drastic measures to create "more real than real".
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
In theory yes, but I’ve shot out plug-in after plug-in and they can’t seem to beat even 1980s technology in reverbs??? Maybe the converters play a big part in the sound? I actually like going analog in/out even when a digital I/O is available. More vibe to me. The fact that plugins can’t nail this(at least to my ears) has been perplexing to say the least. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 17, 2022 3:47:39 GMT -6
It's not the reverb. Plenty of hits made with plugs. If you watch a lot of pros, they usually layer many delays and reverbs together for vocals. It's not uncommon to have a short slap-type delay, a ping-pong delay, an ambient reverb and a longer plate all on the vocals at the same time. Layering like this gives you something that no single reverb can do. We're not in the business of absolute reality. We're in the business of the illusion of realism and that tends to mean drastic measures to create "more real than real".
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
well that depends on if you are using it in digital mode or analog. In analog, it's doing an AD conversion, computing reverb, then DA conversion. Which no doubt does something. That said, I run them both digitally(AES in and OUT) so no conversion and Analog and they still still better than any plugin I have. Even in Digital mode. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Jul 18, 2022 8:17:43 GMT -6
It's not the reverb. Plenty of hits made with plugs. If you watch a lot of pros, they usually layer many delays and reverbs together for vocals. It's not uncommon to have a short slap-type delay, a ping-pong delay, an ambient reverb and a longer plate all on the vocals at the same time. Layering like this gives you something that no single reverb can do. We're not in the business of absolute reality. We're in the business of the illusion of realism and that tends to mean drastic measures to create "more real than real".
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
Casey has addressed this issue more than once on the purple forum; if you go there and do a search you can find his posts. Short answer: the M7 has far too much going on inside it with multiple dedicated processors to the extent that it can't be done in a plugin. Think hardware here, not software. BTW: for those who don't know, Casey is the person at Bricasti that writes all the code for the unit. He's also the CAS in Bricasti. -09 |
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Post by evangelista on Jul 18, 2022 15:08:50 GMT -6
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
Casey has addressed this issue more than once on the purple forum; if you go there and do a search you can find his posts. Short answer: the M7 has far too much going on inside it with multiple dedicated processors to the extent that it can't be done in a plugin. Think hardware here, not software. BTW: for those who don't know, Casey is the person at Bricasti that writes all the code for the unit. He's also the CAS in Bricasti. -09 Could someone please invite Casey into this thread? |
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Post by drbill on Jul 18, 2022 17:49:28 GMT -6
He's a busy guy. This stuff has all been covered dozens of times. Why not do an internet search?
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Post by evangelista on Jul 19, 2022 10:59:41 GMT -6
He's a busy guy. This stuff has all been covered dozens of times. Why not do an internet search? ok. |
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Post by svart on Jul 19, 2022 11:37:09 GMT -6
I mean considering the Bricasti is essentially software with DSP I would think modern computer's processor's would be able to dish out the same level of reverb even if it meant chaining plug-ins and using multiple ones in series. There isn't some integral analog element that would make the Bricasti inherently better sounding since both are digital emulations of reverb - (i think?) But I could be wrong. I guess I'll just have to demo one at some point maybe on Access Analog to understand what I may/may not be missing.
In theory yes, but I’ve shot out plug-in after plug-in and they can’t seem to beat even 1980s technology in reverbs??? Maybe the converters play a big part in the sound? I actually like going analog in/out even when a digital I/O is available. More vibe to me. The fact that plugins can’t nail this(at least to my ears) has been perplexing to say the least. Not sure what you mean. My PCM80 emulator sounds exactly like my PCM80 with the crunchy digital harshness and everything. The best part about the emulation is that it always works, unlike my PCM80 which decides to boot only about half the time now. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 19, 2022 11:45:16 GMT -6
In theory yes, but I’ve shot out plug-in after plug-in and they can’t seem to beat even 1980s technology in reverbs??? Maybe the converters play a big part in the sound? I actually like going analog in/out even when a digital I/O is available. More vibe to me. The fact that plugins can’t nail this(at least to my ears) has been perplexing to say the least. Not sure what you mean. My PCM80 emulator sounds exactly like my PCM80 with the crunchy digital harshness and everything. The best part about the emulation is that it always works, unlike my PCM80 which decides to boot only about half the time now. until a software update from the host daw, host OS, plugin developer goes under, or something makes it not work. I'll be shocked if plugins are working with a 30+ year life span. Each have their place obviously. Just stating the obvious. |
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Post by seawell on Jul 19, 2022 11:45:19 GMT -6
In theory yes, but I’ve shot out plug-in after plug-in and they can’t seem to beat even 1980s technology in reverbs??? Maybe the converters play a big part in the sound? I actually like going analog in/out even when a digital I/O is available. More vibe to me. The fact that plugins can’t nail this(at least to my ears) has been perplexing to say the least. Not sure what you mean. My PCM80 emulator sounds exactly like my PCM80 with the crunchy digital harshness and everything. The best part about the emulation is that it always works, unlike my PCM80 which decides to boot only about half the time now. Which PCM 80 IR are you using? I have a PCM 80 too, I'd be curious to test it out against the plug you're using. Two general areas that the plugs have never held up are width and especially in the tails. My point was I wouldn't assume a plugin/computer can match all that's going on in the Bricasti if it can't seem to do that with an old Lexicon PCM which would be much less powerful. |
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Post by svart on Jul 19, 2022 12:08:04 GMT -6
Not sure what you mean. My PCM80 emulator sounds exactly like my PCM80 with the crunchy digital harshness and everything. The best part about the emulation is that it always works, unlike my PCM80 which decides to boot only about half the time now. Which PCM 80 IR are you using? I have a PCM 80 too, I'd be curious to test it out against the plug you're using. Two general areas that the plugs have never held up are width and especially in the tails. My point was I wouldn't assume a plugin/computer can match all that's going on in the Bricasti if it can't seem to do that with an old Lexicon PCM which would be much less powerful. A modified 224 setting in verbsuite. I took my PCM80 and tried to match the settings because the PCM80 uses the 224/XL algorithms. DSP chips have specific processing pipelines that can do certain functions much quicker than a general-purpose CPU can, but the speed of a modern CPU would absolutely demolish a 15-20 year old DSP design. A few specific-purpose DSP chips might work more efficiently on a single purpose, such as reverb, than a CPU that needs to compute everything for the DAW, the plugs, the video, the I/O, etc... But there's no comparison that a CPU doing a single purpose task would be much faster, just maybe not as efficient, and that efficiency is what can degrade quickly when the CPU has to handle so many other tasks. Anyway, it's not really a good comparison because they have fundamentally different purposes and therefor designs. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 19, 2022 13:42:15 GMT -6
Just wanted to say that ITB riding reverbs is something to try. I also do ducking on verb send sometimes, I enjoy dialing it in. The voice is dry, tail is wet, that kind of effect. Then there’s the army of verb send approach haha..
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 19, 2022 22:59:53 GMT -6
Just wanted to say that ITB riding reverbs is something to try. I also do ducking on verb send sometimes, I enjoy dialing it in. The voice is dry, tail is wet, that kind of effect. Then there’s the army of verb send approach haha.. I've gotten some good reverbs lately from literally just stacking and stacking distortion plugins and random reverbs and sort of blending whatever sounds good in. Had to make a new session for it but this way I'm atleast having some fun with it.
Literally have like 15 reverb and delay plugins with like 5-6 distortion plug-ins just seeing what sounds good when blended in a usable way.
The Bricasti is just REALLY pricey and atm it wouldn't make sense given I haven't fully exhausted my options ITB. I'm just going to get way more aggressive with how I'm trying things. It's also fun to use crazy amounts of hardware and cool analog pieces to treat say 5 ITB reverbs give them grit blend them just see what comes out the other end. So far I've gotten some nice reverb sounds I haven't really heard before that work for some parts of the song I'm working on. Haven't nailed the main vocal verb yet though.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 21, 2022 16:02:05 GMT -6
I should also say that it's quite a dichotomy in the audio world. You read so many suggestions about how "less is more" that cover so many facets in all stages of production yet when you watch the people actually doing the lion's share of work in the industry they just pile stuff on everything. Going back to the vocal reverb thing, I watched a video of a guy doing a mix for a band I have used as comp material for my own mixes because I like the band and I think the production quality was great. I always wanted to know how he got the main vocals to sit in the mix so well. The answer was nuking them with two compressors, two sets of EQ, two reverbs and a delay. Yeah, solo'd it sounded strange but in the mix it was flawless. In the mix he also dropped other stuff on the busses like distortions, more reverbs, etc. Some of them were just there to "add something" and barely did anything at all, but the totality of all the stuff adding up was where the magic happened. I've noticed this too. It's the same with cooking incidentally. If you take cooking lessons they always tell you to be conservative, but then you watch real chefs and a "pinch" of salt is like a handful. But, like a great mixer, they're always tasting the food not just the component they're making. That's the key in my opinion and it's the problem with digital plugins. Too tempting for someone like me to try to get precise and build a formula. With a knob, I just turn it until it sounds right and I don't have some huge parametric graph telling me "whoa! look how weird this line looks!!!" |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2022 19:48:01 GMT -6
I should also say that it's quite a dichotomy in the audio world. You read so many suggestions about how "less is more" that cover so many facets in all stages of production yet when you watch the people actually doing the lion's share of work in the industry they just pile stuff on everything. Going back to the vocal reverb thing, I watched a video of a guy doing a mix for a band I have used as comp material for my own mixes because I like the band and I think the production quality was great. I always wanted to know how he got the main vocals to sit in the mix so well. The answer was nuking them with two compressors, two sets of EQ, two reverbs and a delay. Yeah, solo'd it sounded strange but in the mix it was flawless. In the mix he also dropped other stuff on the busses like distortions, more reverbs, etc. Some of them were just there to "add something" and barely did anything at all, but the totality of all the stuff adding up was where the magic happened. I've noticed this too. It's the same with cooking incidentally. If you take cooking lessons they always tell you to be conservative, but then you watch real chefs and a "pinch" of salt is like a handful. But, like a great mixer, they're always tasting the food not just the component they're making. That's the key in my opinion and it's the problem with digital plugins. Too tempting for someone like me to try to get precise and build a formula. With a knob, I just turn it until it sounds right and I don't have some huge parametric graph telling me "whoa! look how weird this line looks!!!" Yeah but remember a chef is often cooking a larger batch then a home chef. The only reason I know this is my Cousin is a CIA grad and at one time was one of Chicagos top up and coming chefs. You know a female version of the Bear. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 21, 2022 20:02:53 GMT -6
Oh man, I feel the same way with plugins versus a knob. It’s really distracting to see the entire screen fill up from an EQ move.
Just this week I think I’ve dialed in the Serrano87 to the final setting that I connect with vocally, acoustic, feels magic. All by ear. The final step was bumping the 73EQ low shelf up another twist. I look down at the EQ now.. low shelf maxed out(!), mids 9 o’clock, high shelf 10 o’clock. No high pass. It’s in omni so the lows give it a proximity type thing but not really.
I’d refuse to let myself do this ITB
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Post by plinker on Jul 23, 2022 13:26:19 GMT -6
Oh man, I feel the same way with plugins versus a knob. It’s really distracting to see the entire screen fill up from an EQ move. Just this week I think I’ve dialed in the Serrano87 to the final setting that I connect with vocally, acoustic, feels magic. All by ear. The final step was bumping the 73EQ low shelf up another twist. I look down at the EQ now.. low shelf maxed out(!), mids 9 o’clock, high shelf 10 o’clock. No high pass. It’s in omni so the lows give it a proximity type thing but not really. I’d refuse to let myself do this ITB Yeah! -- It seems wrong to do that ITB, but acceptable in analog. Weird, right?!
It's like "shame-q'ing".
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 23, 2022 13:55:30 GMT -6
Yeah! -- It seems wrong to do that ITB, but acceptable in analog. Weird, right?!
It's like "shame-q'ing".
Shame-q'ing!!! I love it. |
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Post by copperx on Aug 5, 2022 19:41:55 GMT -6
Another cheap way to get the Bricasti sound is through Access Analog.
If you already have the IRs/Seventh Heaven, you could mix with that, and then towards the end of the mixing process, substitute the IR plugin with Access Analog with same settings to get the real M7 sound and print the mix.
If you mix not too frequently, it's a way of getting the genuine article without spending $3.5k. Yes, a bit janky, but if you have more time then money, it's a fair trade.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 9, 2022 15:38:26 GMT -6
Oh man, I feel the same way with plugins versus a knob. It’s really distracting to see the entire screen fill up from an EQ move. Just this week I think I’ve dialed in the Serrano87 to the final setting that I connect with vocally, acoustic, feels magic. All by ear. The final step was bumping the 73EQ low shelf up another twist. I look down at the EQ now.. low shelf maxed out(!), mids 9 o’clock, high shelf 10 o’clock. No high pass. It’s in omni so the lows give it a proximity type thing but not really. I’d refuse to let myself do this ITB Your refusal to do this ITB makes perfect sense to me - I still think in many cases plugins just can't be pushed as far without crapping out. That is finally beginning to change, but there still aren't very many plugins that can be pushed IMO. |
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