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Post by drbill on Jun 10, 2022 17:44:25 GMT -6
Everything matters / nothing matters. I can agree.... But I never go too deep into the "everything matters" psychosis. I buy what I FEEL will make a big difference to me. Then I (almost always) dig it, and use it, and end up loving it. If not, it's gone. After that early, and often almost instantaneous learning curve, I make music and forget about it - allowing it's ergo's and sonics to influence my creativity. I never allow a piece of gear to consume me and I almost never get into ongoing A/B tests as they become useless and counterproductive for me after a very few minutes with a piece of gear. Either we are instantly attracted, or I move on.
At least these are my goals. On the rare occasion, I don't instantly gel, but I know from others experience that I will grow to love it - and those pieces get kept, and often grow into a deep relationship as I adjust into their world.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2022 18:50:47 GMT -6
;We're backordered from here to beyond the foreseeable future. Cheers, bp Backordered? Step up to the bench or hire someone. Don't leave them waiting. That 2 bus is counting on you. Not so sure I want one Bill built, he always seams to have some one else do the DIY kits.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 10, 2022 20:28:57 GMT -6
The other half of "everything matters," is "none of it matters." Too much emphasis on the first one, be reminded of the second one. And vice versa. I think obsessive audio types often skew too far in the neurotic "detail oriented" direction, which can quickly result in psychosis of some sort. You can look at some of the thoughts people have been having here as an example. I fall into that camp, fortunately I came to the simple conclusion that if something doesn't make an immediately noticeable dramatic difference it's not worth entertaining. It's amazing how one small thought changed my perception on everything audio related.. That's it yeah! The one-finger grip on the ledge of the cliff. In time, like Dr. Bill said, this can set you free entirely. Not just in audio but in all walks of life.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jun 15, 2022 14:45:38 GMT -6
I've never used a summing mixer but for years I used a console to "sum" through. It was the best music I ever made sonically. I have a theory on that. First, I think there's no way to mimic cross talk in a center section digitally. Or maybe there is but I haven't heard it. It's something that when you hear it and all the harmonics it creates, it just makes you feel the music down to the bone. Hard to explain. Second, during that time I thought about making music 24/7 and was way more dedicated to the craft. Made a little jingle here and there and was happy doing it. So maybe that was the secret sauce. But I doubt it. I still know what I knew then and I can't get to the same place with digital. Some people can, I can't.
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Post by paulcheeba on Jun 15, 2022 15:12:27 GMT -6
Quick update on my various experiment’s. Upgraded the Caps in my Toft Ocean Ark 500 desk x10uf and the headroom increase is huge for analogue mixing. All Burr Browns too now.
The tube summer of 8 Coil’s, 2 Tree branches and a Rooster 2 summed into a green Fat Bustard 2 sounds stupendous.
The Nicerizer jnr which sounds great on its own works wonders with 2 Wes Titan’s full of eq and compression all automated and recalled.
These are workflows I refuse to wok without. The closest to ITB is the last but even the small inserts and a Bettermaker mix buss is insane. There is no way I’m going in the Box.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 15, 2022 15:20:17 GMT -6
I've never used a summing mixer but for years I used a console to "sum" through. It was the best music I ever made sonically. I have a theory on that. First, I think there's no way to mimic cross talk in a center section digitally. Or maybe there is but I haven't heard it. It's something that when you hear it and all the harmonics it creates, it just makes you feel the music down to the bone. Hard to explain. Second, during that time I thought about making music 24/7 and was way more dedicated to the craft. Made a little jingle here and there and was happy doing it. So maybe that was the secret sauce. But I doubt it. I still know what I knew then and I can't get to the same place with digital. Some people can, I can't. What changed? Why did you give it up?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2022 16:24:02 GMT -6
I've never used a summing mixer but for years I used a console to "sum" through. It was the best music I ever made sonically. I have a theory on that. First, I think there's no way to mimic cross talk in a center section digitally. Or maybe there is but I haven't heard it. It's something that when you hear it and all the harmonics it creates, it just makes you feel the music down to the bone. Hard to explain. Second, during that time I thought about making music 24/7 and was way more dedicated to the craft. Made a little jingle here and there and was happy doing it. So maybe that was the secret sauce. But I doubt it. I still know what I knew then and I can't get to the same place with digital. Some people can, I can't. You're not the only one but there's a vast difference between sound, intent and target. Also it's all definitively set by the studio itself, what I mean is I've changed my studio drastically once every 5 - 10 years and they all produced completely different results. The tricky bit is defining what's "better"..With ITB mixes being so common over the past thirty years near enough one's correlation of subjective improvement may or may not reach to the masses. I've mentioned before that some listeners used to modern production thought that Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles etc. sounded weird and that a more focussed or pronounced ITB mix is the norm. Although that's stereotyping.. ITB isn't always a strong centred projection neither is OTB always wide / deep and or any collection of buzz words. I've had some desks that provided absolutely nothing over a typical interface and ITB EQ, it really does depend on what specific components you use. So there’s two issues, the end goal and the chain. As I’m hitting nearly 40 pieces of outboard specifically chosen for their influence on a track, meaning they’re not utility items that give pause for thought over differences between ITB / OTB it’s becoming increasingly difficult to ever replicate that chain digitally. In fact I’d never bother to try, some of it hasn't been emulated digitally and others behave differently based upon other equipment feeding them. If I was just using channel strip replication (like from an SSL) then there would be a simple comparison but overall the setup is too complex to mimic. Whilst it’s primarily for my own satisfaction one thing is very apparent, it’s very easy to get where I need to go. TLDR version, certain analog setups for me sound wildly different, some don’t and I’ve heard quite a bit in-between. There’s way too many variables to really know including the day, your ears on said day, the performance, the slight breeze coming from the west etc. compiled with every other difference you make to a chain. The only thing I truly know is my primarily OTB setup sounds absolutely nothing like any other ITB setup I’ve ever used for better or worse.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 15, 2022 16:33:53 GMT -6
I've never used a summing mixer but for years I used a console to "sum" through. It was the best music I ever made sonically. I have a theory on that. First, I think there's no way to mimic cross talk in a center section digitally. Or maybe there is but I haven't heard it. It's something that when you hear it and all the harmonics it creates, it just makes you feel the music down to the bone. Hard to explain. Second, during that time I thought about making music 24/7 and was way more dedicated to the craft. Made a little jingle here and there and was happy doing it. So maybe that was the secret sauce. But I doubt it. I still know what I knew then and I can't get to the same place with digital. Some people can, I can't. You're not the only one but there's a vast difference between sound, intent and target. Also it's all definitively set by the studio itself, what I mean is I've changed my studio drastically once every 5 - 10 years and they all produced completely different results. The tricky bit is defining what's "better"..With ITB mixes being so common over the past thirty years near enough one's correlation of subjective improvement may or may not reach to the masses. I've mentioned before that some listeners used to modern production thought that Fleetwood Mac or the Eagles etc. sounded weird and that a more focussed or pronounced ITB mix is the norm. Although that's stereotyping.. ITB isn't always a strong centred projection neither is OTB always wide / deep and or any collection of buzz words. I've had some desks that provided absolutely nothing over a typical interface and ITB EQ, it really does depend on what specific components you use. So there’s two issues, the end goal and the chain. As I’m hitting nearly 40 pieces of outboard specifically chosen for their influence on a track, meaning they’re not utility items that give pause for thought over differences between ITB / OTB it’s becoming increasingly difficult to ever replicate that chain digitally. In fact I’d never bother to try, some of it hasn't been emulated digitally and others behave differently based upon other equipment feeding them. If I was just using channel strip replication (like from an SSL) then there would be a simple comparison but overall the setup is too complex to mimic. Whilst it’s primarily for my own satisfaction one thing is very apparent, it’s very easy to get where I need to go. TLDR version, certain analog setups for me sound wildly different, some don’t and I’ve heard quite a bit in-between. There’s way too many variables to really know including the day, your ears on said day, the performance, the slight breeze coming from the west etc. compiled with every other difference you make to a chain. The only thing I truly know is my primarily OTB setup sounds absolutely nothing like any other ITB setup I’ve ever used for better or worse.
But you're summing in the box, aren't you? And using some plugins? I like your and cowboy's posts a lot, either way. In the box / Analog / Digital / hybrid / Out of the Box descriptions are becoming increasingly meaningless as specific terminology. Even engineers can't keep them straight. Don't know why but I've always been sort of a purist about "definitive meaning." It's fun at parties, let me tell you (for me, only.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2022 18:16:57 GMT -6
But you're summing in the box, aren't you? And using some plugins? I like your and cowboy's posts a lot, either way. In the box / Analog / Digital / hybrid / Out of the Box descriptions are becoming increasingly meaningless as specific terminology. Even engineers can't keep them straight. Don't know why but I've always been sort of a purist about "definitive meaning." It's fun at parties, let me tell you (for me, only.) Distortion in general, second / third order harmonics, "positive phase", crosstalk or "spillage", imbalances, noise etc. that's what we all really mean. Quite of a few of us like a bit a bit of extra treacle in our puddings. Some look at it as a negative but often it isn't, straight up comb filtering / samples out of delay / mic's incorrectly positioned etc. that's not good but a none linear EQ? It can work wonders.. It's why copying and pasting a guitar track (L/R) sounds rubbish whilst the timing / frequency nuances between two guitars tracked one after the other and then panned L/R sounds good. Also it's good reference for mid (bass / kick etc.) side (guitars / synths etc.) imbalances causing impact on a stereo field.
Sometimes one clips a circuit and it sounds horrible (usually transistors / odd harmonics), sometimes we want harmonic distortion (soft clipping like tube saturation / usually even harmonics). All these buzz words like depth / 3D etc. is one of these components mentioned here, any traditionally trained audio engineer should know how to manipulate these fundamentals to their advantage.
The thing about ITB, close mic'ing with a single mic and running it direct to a converter with an analog signal path that has 125dB's worth of dynamic range (which will be affected by other measurements like SNR) and a THD of something like 0.00000?!& is you'll have none of this. Then you've got rely on plugins to put back in what's missing (if that's the goal).. IME that's always been a bit of a mixed bag and a lot more effort.
Anyway in terms of plugs I don't use many like 5(ish)? HW / EQ / compression / effects are all outboard. I do sum internally yes but after the track is thrown through a dishwasher (HW mastering chain). My point is there's too many nuances, interactions and changes throughout a large chain for this stuff to be individually noticeable. If all you've got is an interface / pre-amp and summing mixer then it might be more apparent, that being said a lot of the summing mixers I've used didn't make tha much of a difference. Ironically the uber clean high headroom SSL Big Six did more to a track than some of the bigger transformer based consoles I've come across.
It was extremely apparent as well, I used an MOTU to feed every channel so the SSL's conversion had nothing to do with it. Still sounded the same.. This is what makes audio purchases so damn frustrating, you really never know how it's going to turn out. Like ever..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 15, 2022 20:38:15 GMT -6
I really don't fully know if running a system at -10db or at +4 db (balanced) should make any difference. The thing I've noticed is all the mixes I did on balanced systems had more weight. For Monkeyxx , by "weight" I mean a fuller, stronger, tighter, bigger, cleaner bass. The final volume level could be the same, but the mix done on a balanced board had more muscle and impact. That's what I wish I could get ITB, but haven't. My hope is the Dangerous Music 2 Bus+ might give me some of the weight of a console, (if I can ever afford one). ITB tip, the HG2 Black Box plug-in gave me about 20-30 % of that weight which is now on every ITB mix I do.
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Post by notneeson on Jun 15, 2022 21:09:46 GMT -6
I really don't fully know if running a system at -10db or at +4 db (balanced) should make any difference. The thing I've noticed is all the mixes I did on balanced systems had more weight. For Monkeyxx , by "weight" I mean a fuller, stronger, tighter, bigger, cleaner bass. The final volume level could be the same, but the mix done on a balanced board had more muscle and impact. That's what I wish I could get ITB, but haven't. My hope is the Dangerous Music 2 Bus+ might give me some of the weight of a console, (if I can ever afford one). ITB tip, the HG2 Black Box plug-in gave me about 20-30 % of that weight which is now on every ITB mix I do. What’s your starting point with Black Box? I haven’t gotten into yet.
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Post by drbill on Jun 15, 2022 21:11:47 GMT -6
ITB tip, the HG2 Black Box plug-in gave me about 20-30 % of that weight which is now on every ITB mix I do. That's so interesting Martin, cause I bought that plug based on the hardware and the hype, and after trying it two times, I've never used it again. Didn't sit well with me at all. Goes to show, many different paths, and many different destinations. Hated that plugin. For clarity though - I have a lot of hardware on individual sources, as well as on the mix buss. I'd happily sell the HG2 plug, but they go for so cheap when they are on sale that it's not even worth it.
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Post by drbill on Jun 15, 2022 21:15:48 GMT -6
Backordered? Step up to the bench or hire someone. Don't leave them waiting. That 2 bus is counting on you. Not so sure I want one Bill built, he always seams to have some one else do the DIY kits. Hey!!!! . I built all my CAPI racks, a bunch of DIYRE stuff, my EQP500's, etc.. I even bought a Hakko solder sucker to help fix my mistakes!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 15, 2022 21:35:03 GMT -6
Bummed that the Black Box sucked for you Dr. Bill. I find that just a pinch works nicely to bring a little presence and sparkle. It could be your mixes need less help than mine do and the Black Box is trying to gild the lily.
Lately I barely use compression. Just the UAD ATR -102 first in the 2 bus, which I mix into. After that maybe the Black Box. The maybe 2db of compression and I'm done.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 15, 2022 22:04:21 GMT -6
I really don't fully know if running a system at -10db or at +4 db (balanced) should make any difference. The thing I've noticed is all the mixes I did on balanced systems had more weight. For Monkeyxx , by "weight" I mean a fuller, stronger, tighter, bigger, cleaner bass. The final volume level could be the same, but the mix done on a balanced board had more muscle and impact. That's what I wish I could get ITB, but haven't. My hope is the Dangerous Music 2 Bus+ might give me some of the weight of a console, (if I can ever afford one). ITB tip, the HG2 Black Box plug-in gave me about 20-30 % of that weight which is now on every ITB mix I do. Cool! Thanks for elaborating. Thanks to ShadowK too I love technical elaboration! I think in balanced inputs/outputs (other than "cheating" with resistor pseudo-balancing) you just have "more stuff." the stuff Shadow was talking about. In the old days this was transformers on every in and out. In modern days, it's probably op amps, which also have a sound. But a Mackie, I have to say, is also a "balanced system" or "balanced board," as well as a Behringer. -10 dBV vs +4 dBV is not technically "balancing" either, it's just two different signal amplitude standards for ideal operating levels. Balancing means an identical dual path to cancel environmental noise, such as from an XLR cable or a balanced TRS cable. It doesn't techincally imply an operating level. For example, a microphone is balanced and has a very small typical signal strength, somewhere around -60 dBV or -40 dBV... nonetheless, "balanced." And on the other end of the scale, AC mains power can be balanced as well. That's a lot of juice. Ohhhhhhmmmmmm. But typically, I'd tend to see what you're saying there. "High voltage" sounds "big." Take any guitar or bass amp as a really easy example of this. Even a guitar pedal like an OCD or something. Run it at 9V, again at 18V, and listen to the "bigness." It's a thing. I agree. I love big heavy high powered stuff in general.
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Post by gwlee7 on Jun 16, 2022 5:15:04 GMT -6
I am glad I am able to read all of this now without feeling like I need to buy/try every single piece of gear or method that has been mentioned. When I first joined this forum, I was allowing myself to get caught up in all the “gear you must have” and spent tons of money buying stuff I honestly didn’t have the time to figure out how to use. Plus, being a songwriter, writing songs kept “getting in the way” because the songs have to come out.
I read all of these types threads now for information and learning instead of for what I “need”. That has been like as dr. bill and monkeyxx as well as a couple of others have said, totally freeing.
I have chosen a mixer and I pay him a sum to mix for me now.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jun 16, 2022 7:09:01 GMT -6
But you're summing in the box, aren't you? And using some plugins? I like your and cowboy's posts a lot, either way. In the box / Analog / Digital / hybrid / Out of the Box descriptions are becoming increasingly meaningless as specific terminology. Even engineers can't keep them straight. Don't know why but I've always been sort of a purist about "definitive meaning." It's fun at parties, let me tell you (for me, only.) Distortion in general, second / third order harmonics, "positive phase", crosstalk or "spillage", imbalances, noise etc. that's what we all really mean. Quite of a few of us like a bit a bit of extra treacle in our puddings. Some look at it as a negative but often it isn't, straight up comb filtering / samples out of delay / mic's incorrectly positioned etc. that's not good but a none linear EQ? It can work wonders.. It's why copying and pasting a guitar track (L/R) sounds rubbish whilst the timing / frequency nuances between two guitars tracked one after the other and then panned L/R sounds good. Also it's good reference for mid (bass / kick etc.) side (guitars / synths etc.) imbalances causing impact on a stereo field.
Sometimes one clips a circuit and it sounds horrible (usually transistors / odd harmonics), sometimes we want harmonic distortion (soft clipping like tube saturation / usually even harmonics). All these buzz words like depth / 3D etc. is one of these components mentioned here, any traditionally trained audio engineer should know how to manipulate these fundamentals to their advantage.
The thing about ITB, close mic'ing with a single mic and running it direct to a converter with an analog signal path that has 125dB's worth of dynamic range (which will be affected by other measurements like SNR) and a THD of something like 0.00000?!& is you'll have none of this. Then you've got rely on plugins to put back in what's missing (if that's the goal).. IME that's always been a bit of a mixed bag and a lot more effort.
Anyway in terms of plugs I don't use many like 5(ish)? HW / EQ / compression / effects are all outboard. I do sum internally yes but after the track is thrown through a dishwasher (HW mastering chain). My point is there's too many nuances, interactions and changes throughout a large chain for this stuff to be individually noticeable. If all you've got is an interface / pre-amp and summing mixer then it might be more apparent, that being said a lot of the summing mixers I've used didn't make tha much of a difference. Ironically the uber clean high headroom SSL Big Six did more to a track than some of the bigger transformer based consoles I've come across.
It was extremely apparent as well, I used an MOTU to feed every channel so the SSL's conversion had nothing to do with it. Still sounded the same.. This is what makes audio purchases so damn frustrating, you really never know how it's going to turn out. Like ever..
This is the best post I’ve ever read to explain what I meant in my earlier post.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 7:14:52 GMT -6
I am glad I am able to read all of this now without feeling like I need to buy/try every single piece of gear or method that has been mentioned. When I first joined this forum, I was allowing myself to get caught up in all the “gear you must have” and spent tons of money buying stuff I honestly didn’t have the time to figure out how to use. Plus, being a songwriter, writing songs kept “getting in the way” because the songs have to come out. I read all of these types threads now for information and learning instead of for what I “need”. That has been like as dr. bill and monkeyxx as well as a couple of others have said, totally freeing. I have chosen a mixer and I pay him a sum to mix for me now. I promise I'm not trying to sound mean and this isn't really aimed at you anyway. For all the potential beginners, if you cannot create a great sounding mix with stock Logic plugins for example you're barking up the wrong tree with HW. There is no "gear you must have" it's a fallacy and learning the differences between certain VCA's / Opto's or FET's etc. with plugs would serve you far better. Just like svart I meandered around for a few years (during my "10,000 hours") until I made the discovery (we're a few decades on since then), also I met a few engineers that could use nearly anything (one was a Presonus interface with a few plugs) and it was utterly depressing how good they were.
You couldn't pry my tracking HW or monitors from me but that's not what we're talking about really. HW is a tool like any other served for specific benefits, it's cool when all the fundamentals / tech knowledge becomes memory muscle and all that's left is defining your own style. Some achieve that with plugins so it goes either way, it's just about having the knowledge to define what you want out of the venture and HW helps me towards my vision, but that has nothing to do with achieving a "good mix". Hence I can understand where Martin John Butler is coming from as well, once you've defined exactly what you need or want to achieve your own style / methodology / goal it's hard to then go the other direction.
On a more direct note Greg, not everyone sees it as "freeing".. I like to mess around with new equipment, I enjoy mixing and mastering. If I hit a wall I'll happily pass it off but until then being a control freak is far more fun for me.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jun 16, 2022 7:16:56 GMT -6
I've never used a summing mixer but for years I used a console to "sum" through. It was the best music I ever made sonically. I have a theory on that. First, I think there's no way to mimic cross talk in a center section digitally. Or maybe there is but I haven't heard it. It's something that when you hear it and all the harmonics it creates, it just makes you feel the music down to the bone. Hard to explain. Second, during that time I thought about making music 24/7 and was way more dedicated to the craft. Made a little jingle here and there and was happy doing it. So maybe that was the secret sauce. But I doubt it. I still know what I knew then and I can't get to the same place with digital. Some people can, I can't. What changed? Why did you give it up? Laziness, recall (too much fiddling with old tracks), no good reason really. I still have the console and it is now a coffee cup holder. Back then I recorded a song from start to finish, mixed it, printed it and out it went. Don’t have the same discipline these days.
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Post by svart on Jun 16, 2022 7:21:21 GMT -6
I am glad I am able to read all of this now without feeling like I need to buy/try every single piece of gear or method that has been mentioned. When I first joined this forum, I was allowing myself to get caught up in all the “gear you must have” and spent tons of money buying stuff I honestly didn’t have the time to figure out how to use. Plus, being a songwriter, writing songs kept “getting in the way” because the songs have to come out. I read all of these types threads now for information and learning instead of for what I “need”. That has been like as dr. bill and monkeyxx as well as a couple of others have said, totally freeing. I have chosen a mixer and I pay him a sum to mix for me now. Just like svart I meandered around for a few years (during my "10,000 hours") until I made the discovery (we're a few decades on since then), also I met a few engineers that could use nearly anything (one was a Presonus interface with a few plugs) and it was utterly depressing how good they were.
I knew a guy who went down to GC and bought himself a Presounus interface, some KRK Rokits, a couple headphone and some AT mics on sale and went home. He produced multiple bands within the year and his projects sounded better than mine after 15 years. I was so grieved that I almost quit.. He was so good at doing it all with nothing but a few plugs while sitting in his untreated living room and here I was behind tons of higher end gear and decades of trying. After a few years he got bored and stopped recording. WTF.
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Post by christopher on Jun 16, 2022 8:21:56 GMT -6
Some of those AT mics are dark like an old vintage mic. Any of us could put out a decent project with them. Limiters often add highs so just slamming the limiter brings life and sounds good. There is a limit to how good you’re gonna get though, and that’s why that guy probably gave up
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Post by svart on Jun 16, 2022 8:34:26 GMT -6
Some of those AT mics are dark like an old vintage mic. Any of us could put out a decent project with them. Limiters often add highs so just slamming the limiter brings life and sounds good. There is a limit to how good you’re gonna get though, and that’s why that guy probably gave up He gave up because it wasn't challenging for him. He went off and did video for a while and now he's flipping houses. And it wasn't ever about just the tones and fidelity, it was everything. Songwriting, arrangements, everything. It was effortless for him so he just never really seemed like it mattered. He was never one of us tryhards that have to listen to every tiny little detail. He just made changes and moved on. Like I said, effortless.
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Post by gwlee7 on Jun 16, 2022 11:21:57 GMT -6
I promise I'm not trying to sound mean and this isn't really aimed at you anyway.
On a more direct note Greg, not everyone sees it as "freeing"..
I don’t see at as mean at all and the shoe does fit me. I had to learn the lesson for myself. I should have qualified the “freeing” part as To, me it has been freeing. When I made the decision that my time and money was better spent hiring a mixer and spending my time writing and tracking, I have been much happier. We all find happiness in different ways and I was not trying to imply that anyone was being constricted by their own musical journey.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 16, 2022 11:41:53 GMT -6
I'm glad Shadow found his way, making cool music, putting in the hours and finding what works for him. A lot of that was finding out what doesn't work for him, and he has freedom from that, through lived experience. This thread "was" about "summing mixers" but has apparently broadened to the entire workflow.
I'm glad Greg found his way as well, and everyone else who has commented on their way.
I'm glad Svart is still working, despite witnessing someone with an easy gift, being humble enough to continue and deepen the practice, in a selfless way.
It's all really wonderful, except for when it's not, and there's really no difference between the two.
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Post by srb on Jun 16, 2022 12:24:57 GMT -6
I'm glad Shadow found his way, making cool music, putting in the hours and finding what works for him. A lot of that was finding out what doesn't work for him, and he has freedom from that, through lived experience. This thread "was" about "summing mixers" but has apparently broadened to the entire workflow. I'm glad Greg found his way as well, and everyone else who has commented on their way. I'm glad Svart is still working, despite witnessing someone with an easy gift, being humble enough to continue and deepen the practice, in a selfless way. It's all really wonderful, except for when it's not, and there's really no difference between the two. Ah, the oneness in duality. I often feel that the greatest meaningfulness in living is reconciling opposites.
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