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Post by deaconblues on Jun 3, 2022 15:00:16 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2022 16:20:15 GMT -6
I made a little passive summing mixer for 3 stereo channels (will also do 6x1, 4x1+2x1 or similar combos), with a switch to load it for preamp inputs, or not, so I'd have a simple way to put some parallel bus paths back together. I swap the makeup amps around, sometimes I don't use one and just do digital gain on the way back in. Any color is in the outboard on the busses and in any makeup amps, if I straight mix 6 channels through it versus ITB, there's no appreciable difference. I was using the passive mix panel of an RCA BC-2B console for this purpose when it was convenient once, that looks awesome but the footprint is impractical for most, including me!
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 3, 2022 16:31:19 GMT -6
I’ve got the CAPI SumBus 16. Still trying to find the time to build it.
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Post by christophert on Jun 3, 2022 17:57:30 GMT -6
I made a little passive summing mixer for 3 stereo channels (will also do 6x1, 4x1+2x1 or similar combos), with a switch to load it for preamp inputs, or not, so I'd have a simple way to put some parallel bus paths back together. I swap the makeup amps around, sometimes I don't use one and just do digital gain on the way back in. Any color is in the outboard on the busses and in any makeup amps, if I straight mix 6 channels through it versus ITB, there's no appreciable difference. I was using the passive mix panel of an RCA BC-2B console for this purpose when it was convenient once, that looks awesome but the footprint is impractical for most, including me! Try it on 24-32 channels and it is a different story IME
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Post by wiz on Jun 3, 2022 18:02:57 GMT -6
The amount of money these summing solutions cost…it should be night and day the differences between it and ITB.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 18:50:08 GMT -6
The amount of money these summing solutions cost…it should be night and day the differences between it and ITB. As said, that Gainlabs EQ does more to a signal than any summing solution I've come across. I suppose it is a summing solution in some sort of way, it's packed full of tubes and transformers.. Sweet:
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 3, 2022 20:16:17 GMT -6
I’ve got the CAPI SumBus 16. Still trying to find the time to build it. Dude. It's the jam. Game changer.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 4, 2022 3:52:29 GMT -6
I think the misnomer about greater separation is the non linear effects of transformers and there effect on the perception of elements in the stereo field. Of course make up amplifiers contribute to this equation as well...... The SSL Big Six doesn't have any transformers and it changes the sound quite a fair bit. Everything comes across a bit more punchy, wide and refined, it's not super subtle either (as in questioning whether or not it's making any difference). Great desk if you can put up with its limitations plus it's cheap.. I can get the same if not a far more dramatic presentation from my two bus equipment though so it went*. *The third time around.. That's my experience so far, I get the same effect from summing through my 2 bus chain as I have from trying budget multichannel summing. Dr Bill, yourself and others have said they found the same to be true - so I'm certain I'm not imagining it. The only reason I can see for multichannel summing like a Sigma, Never 8816 etc is the ease of adding in outboard processing post D/A conversion. If I was to pony up and buy a desk like a Neve 8424 (my dream desk) it would be for the workflow and vibe not because I believed it's summing was going to win out over my current extensive 2 bus chain. Plus an 8424 would be a real improvement in my tracking/monitoring workflow. So I can see the benefit of a hybrid desk, but personally I'm happy with a great 2 bus chain over a budget summing mixer.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 4, 2022 8:28:45 GMT -6
It takes only the most minimal level difference to suggest differences that aren’t there, or greatly exaggerate small ones. It’s extremely difficult to weed out.
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Post by matt on Jun 4, 2022 8:39:50 GMT -6
That's a good one, "Fun." It is a "good one". To each, their own.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 4, 2022 9:05:39 GMT -6
That's a good one, "Fun." It is a "good one". To each, their own. If you're not having fun making music... what the hell is wrong with you?
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Post by jmoose on Jun 4, 2022 15:42:23 GMT -6
I'm all-in with hybrid summing because I like it. A lot. I went in the box in 2019 and after 18 months I realized that I wasn't enjoying myself nearly as much as when I was surrounded by racks of warm, softly glowing analog gear. I had stored it all away, but brought it back when it hit me that I love integrating the "old way" into my digital studio (however, there's no tape machines here, that's a bridge too far). Are my mixes better now that I can turn knobs? It's a great question. I am unable to judge my own work (of my own music) objectively. But my drummer, who is slowly becoming my assistant, has a great ear, and thinks the latest mixes of our material have more clarity and balance compared to prior mixes. Plus, we are having FUN doing it.
For me the ITB vs OTB debate isn't much of a debate. If I mix/remix songs both ways the results are simply too different to objectively compare. Ultimately they're simply different sets of tools. There's an analog kit and a digital kit and I treat 'em differently. One thing I don't try & do is force my digital gear to perfectly emulate the analog gear. That's an impossible, pointless task. Lotta the stuff I have and use in the analog world doesn't have a direct emulation. Also all the routing options are completely different between analog & digital worlds. But gear? Sure there are countless 1176 & pultec style plugs... various reverbs & that sort of thing but for one there's no direct emulation of a dbx subharmonic synth. Yeah there are things like the bx & waves Rbass that are kinda similar but they aren't the same. Its a different result. Likewise I tend to pop a Summit DCL200 across the insert of my SSL xlogic desk... there's no direct DCL200 plug so working ITB I might pull up the UAD vari mu. They're both cool. Both different. Both do similar things but they're different and I don't sweat that. My preference is to involve outboard and keep things physical... recall be damned which honestly isn't a huge deal. For me? For the artist? It presents more options. Its simply a larger toolbox with a lot more available. Does that make it a superior result? Now there's something debatable but I'll say yeah... yeah it does. But some projects for various reasons I stay 110% ITB. No big whoop. When you have the real deal stuff in the racks its pretty easy to make comparisons but ultimately I don't really care about that kinda thing. More of a results guy and as long as the results are groovy and other people also think its groovy? Then we all win and the question of how we got there? Kinda irrelevant. Thought this was pretty rad - Hang with Sylvia Massey for a half hour. Watched this a few years ago and thought wow cool, she's doing the same kinda thing I am. So I'm not a total freak?! Outboard lives patched between DAW outputs & console/summing box. That's where the magic lies.
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 4, 2022 18:46:04 GMT -6
I’ve got the CAPI SumBus 16. Still trying to find the time to build it. Dude. It's the jam. Game changer. +1 ... still loving my capi sum bus 32 channel. I feed it from 32 outs on apollo x16s, into a silver bullet for make up gain (going to try using my electric and company EC3s (ampex 351 topology) this week after reading this thread) into stam SSL and print it thro dangerous AD+ via AES back thro apollo. sounds great, recall is easy, anyone that thinks summing doesn't make much of a diff needs to try a capi sum bus, thing is like 25 pounds lol eventually I'm going to print it into a real ampex 351
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Post by paulcheeba on Jun 4, 2022 20:18:31 GMT -6
My favourite thing to mix with is my Customised Ark 500 console with extra high end hardware and some convenient utility plug ins. That’s fun. I also have 4 summing mixers for different types of mixing. I have a Neve 8816 with faders and 16 10XX modules built into my mixer that make up a sidecar for parallel drums of which I have about 10 processed stems. I also have a green Fat Bustard for my 8 coil’s, Thermionic Rooster 2 and my 2 Tree branch 2’s to make a tube mixer at line level. Finally I have an SPL Mixdream and a Nicerizer which I patch 2 racks of Wes Titan and Bettermaker mastering gear into when I want total analogue recall. Do I need all this? No. I love options and variety though and even though I can mix ITB With great plugs I just find it a bit meh. Even running stems into the Nicerizer is more fun than being totally ITB. Until recently my mixer and some outboard needed tlc and that was a drag as I had to calibrate it every half an hour which was a ball ache. So working in the DAW is good for that but it’s a bit spiritless. The main thing is that however we mix we should be confident in the results and enjoy the process plus spend that tax.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2022 5:10:39 GMT -6
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Post by robschnapf on Jun 5, 2022 15:28:06 GMT -6
I like analogue. Modelo tastes better with a console then a mouse. IMO
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 5, 2022 18:38:30 GMT -6
I like analogue. Modelo tastes better with a console then a mouse. IMO Do you ever print your final stereo mix through a stereo comp or hit it with a console or channel strip for some flavor/'glue'? Or is it redundant in your opinion when tracking through a console?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2022 18:41:03 GMT -6
I had the Sumbus. But I only had 8 channels. Made up the gain with two Vp28s. Even just 4 stereo busses sounds fantastic. But I ultimately found myself mixing ITB all the time because of the budgets I was working with…so I sold. Don’t worry, I’ve already had a tearful mea culpa with Jeff. He still likes me, I think.
But the more I think about it, is printing a 3:30 song in real time that much different than bouncing ITB that takes 2:30? Or whatever. My biggest issue was just not having the money to expand my IO to at least 16 and then afford 16 channels of the Sumbus. I’ve been trying to figure out where my money would go the farthest. As you can see, I’ve been talking about room acoustics, a Trinnov and now I’m kinda jonesing for a Sumbus again. But that’s buying the kit, paying someone to build it and then buying 16 channels of I/o. And I guess that would mean an Apollo 16. Guess I could get an older black face.
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Post by robschnapf on Jun 5, 2022 19:23:04 GMT -6
I like analogue. Modelo tastes better with a console then a mouse. IMO Do you ever print your final stereo mix through a stereo comp or hit it with a console or channel strip for some flavor/'glue'? Or is it redundant in your opinion when tracking through a console? I track thru a console and mix thru a console. two different phases of the operation although always working towards the latter. I save the stereo buss treatment for later when well into the mixing phase. So no it’s not redundant. I think it’s the best of both worlds really. using the great in the box functions mixed with hardware and tactile analogue world. it’s the best.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 5, 2022 22:21:52 GMT -6
I like analogue. Modelo tastes better with a console then a mouse. IMO Sounds less scary than drinking in front of the computer.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 5, 2022 23:05:50 GMT -6
I feel like the consensus is the actual summing out of the box through the wire holds no sonic affect - but if the summing out of the box goes through transformers or other circuitry before it goes back in then a change in sonics will be coming from only that. Like if I reamped 32 tracks through 32 different CAPI sumbus modules via hardware insert then that would essentially be the same thing as summing through a 32 channel CAPI Sumbus. The summing itself without circuitry or transformers does nothing... I think this may very well be the case but I dont know for sure ha
This video was interesting because apparently he did the very test DrBill referenced. 2 channels of summing box vs 32 channels of summing box. I can hear a difference. But I still don't logically understand how just summing wire can make the mix better so I still haven't bought a summing mixer and am just buying more outboard hardware.
Even if stems are being separated they are still coming back in and being heard through a stereo output hitting 2 channels of conversion. So taking it out of the box in a summing mixer I don't understand how thats any different from taking it out of the box through lets say a hardware insert. It's a pretty confusing topic...
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 6, 2022 7:39:45 GMT -6
good points and def food for thought.
one could almost assume it might be a case of it being the "sum" of all the parts. (pun intended) lol
All I know is I like the sound of the capi 32 sumbus and it's more fun for me haha. It's likely due to all the op amps and output transformers, so I guess you could technically print each track thro a chain like that and sum in the box and get something close, the sumbox just makes it easy to do and fast.
imo, good music can be made in so many different setups in 2022.
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Post by drbill on Jun 6, 2022 8:54:14 GMT -6
This video was interesting because apparently he did the very test DrBill referenced. 2 channels of summing box vs 32 channels of summing box. I can hear a difference. But I still don't logically understand how just summing wire can make the mix better so I still haven't bought a summing mixer and am just buying more outboard hardware.
Even if stems are being separated they are still coming back in and being heard through a stereo output hitting 2 channels of conversion. So taking it out of the box in a summing mixer I don't understand how thats any different from taking it out of the box through lets say a hardware insert. It's a pretty confusing topic...
There is a downloadable test out there "somewhere" where the poster summed a mix 32 wide OTB thru the Burl, then summed ITB and went out 2 channels into the Burl, then went out to one of those "2 channel console boxes". The results were interesting. And did not favor what the summing crowd expected. The two different Burl clips sounded pretty close, but one was generally favored. Workflow and ergo's is a completely different topic though. Knobs and gear is fun.
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Post by jaba on Jun 6, 2022 9:53:16 GMT -6
Apologies if this has been mentioned, but I'm curious about the fact that when summing, say 24 channels, you have 24 instances of D-A conversion vs 2 channels when using hardware on the 2-buss (or just monitoring a fully ITB mix). I think most people agree that even quality converters have a tone/ sense of space/ depth so wouldn't that be a factor in whether or not someone prefers analog summing or not?
Could it be something the converters are doing that people like more so than the actual summing box? Would different DA converters into the same summing box be just as different as different summing boxes?
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 6, 2022 10:26:38 GMT -6
Apologies if this has been mentioned, but I'm curious about the fact that when summing, say 24 channels, you have 24 instances of D-A conversion vs 2 channels when using hardware on the 2-buss (or just monitoring a fully ITB mix). I think most people agree that even quality converters have a tone/ sense of space/ depth so wouldn't that be a factor in whether or not someone prefers analog summing or not? Could it be something the converters are doing that people like more so than the actual summing box? Would different DA converters into the same summing box be just as different as different summing boxes? I haven't done extensive testing but it seems to be common thought that the AD printing it back is the more important aspect vs the DA for the outputs going into the summing mixer. When I moved from printing my 2 channels from the apollo to the dangerous AD+ i noticed a big difference. Not sure improved DA for 32 channels would impart as much of a difference. I'll let you know when I move to 32 channels of JCF DA someday
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