kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 10, 2022 5:59:06 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on May 10, 2022 7:57:01 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder.
What am I missing?
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Post by tkaitkai on May 10, 2022 8:32:10 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing?
This drives me crazy, too. Modern Top 40 stuff is both measurably and audibly louder than all of the supposed "loudness targets" for streaming. I've just resolved to make shit super loud, but obviously there are downsides to that. |
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Post by spindrift on May 10, 2022 8:43:33 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? I have the same experience with some projects that I’ve worked on. It’s super frustrating. I think that some of the top mastering engineers working at the highest levels have tricks or possibly insider knowledge to make their tracks standout. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 10, 2022 8:46:29 GMT -6
Every time I send off to one of the big mastering places here in Nashville, I get it back at probably at least -7 LUFS.
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Post by mcirish on May 10, 2022 9:46:18 GMT -6
Every time I send off to one of the big mastering places here in Nashville, I get it back at probably at least -7 LUFS. I get the same thing. The masters I get back are all -8 to -6 LUFS in the loudest sections. I don't think the guidelines for streaming services work and every mastering engineer seems to know how far to push it. The masters I get back are fine for CD as well, which seems kind of odd because streaming is supposed to be much more dynamic... but it isn't. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 10:15:05 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? They're either not being fair in terms of competition (as in allowing big hits to be louder) or they know how to cheat the system. As @tomegatherion said here: realgearonline.com/thread/14149/why-mix-limiter-on?page=1&scrollTo=297528 it's not impossible. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 10, 2022 10:42:18 GMT -6
I've wondered about this myself, a lot. Recently my levels were pretty good, and I used the Aria online mastering for $50 ! But sometimes tracks just don't have the muscle I want. I've suspected it's the difference between the sound of recording on a larger console, but the I'm sure there are plenty of ITB examples that are plenty loud.
This is my benchmark for what an online track can sound like. I'd be curious if one of the guys here could analyze the levels for me.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 10, 2022 10:43:18 GMT -6
All the inconsistency, makes one suspicious.
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 10:53:20 GMT -6
If it's -16 LUFS but the peak to loudness structure is really crushed it will still sound louder if it's normalized up.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 10, 2022 11:12:55 GMT -6
I know several mastering engineers that never really look at the Integrated LUFS, but instead look at short term and shoot for -10 short term.
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 12:22:00 GMT -6
Someone just pointed out to me that smiley face/Disco Smile EQs are an increasingly popular way of gaming the LUFS meter.
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Post by svart on May 10, 2022 12:51:20 GMT -6
Lufs are just RMS over a specified time.
Easiest way around it is to cut the bass. Use distortion and missing fundamental effects to get the sense of bass without actually having low frequencies eating up the average power.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 13:30:32 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? They're either not being fair in terms of competition (as in allowing bit hits to be louder) or they know how to cheat the system. As @tomegatherion said here: realgearonline.com/thread/14149/why-mix-limiter-on?page=1&scrollTo=297528 it's not impossible. You can cheat integrated LUFS by cutting bass, quiet / loud parts, clipping (Gibbs phenomenon), pokey upper mids, and abusing the just inaccurate true peak standard to clip the pcm file anyway and get oscillations from that. And for the latter, I don't mean like one of those super oversampled modern clippers, something like inflator, or many better AD converters where they saturate first and then you clip the oversampled AD stage. I mean you just exploit the fact that true peak is really +/1 db at best to get that peak louder, clipped, and oscillate. It's why many converters like Lynx and MOTU sound best at -1 dbfs true peak. Others don't. Don't use that true peak limiter because they're really clippers with an oversampled sidechain clipping either oversampled or not signal or it's false advertising (certain well advertised plugin companies) You just get the true peak readout to be -.1 dbfs with a normal lookahead limiter and then print that. It's a super dirty way to get one louder on better converters and clip others. Then that oscillation gets phase shift by most playback systems meaning louder and more distorted. This is how you you fry speaker drivers. You master will be quieter than a punchy one turned up but volume normalization means yours is louder now for those too lazy to operate a potentiometer or DJs who can't DJ. |
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Post by ml on May 10, 2022 15:15:15 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? Because they aren’t submitting -14db masters, more like -7db and then letting the service turn it down. If you ever read any of those SOS inside track articles, they are mixing it as loud as possible. SOS: “In general, I get my mixes to be pretty slamming. I give them to the mastering engineer as hot as I can get it!" All, clearly, in the service of getting his mixes to sound as big and aggressive and 21st century as possible. As Cooley says, it's like the "'90s on steroids"!” |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 10, 2022 16:26:39 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? Because they aren’t submitting -14db masters, more like -7db and then letting the service turn it down. If you ever read any of those SOS inside track articles, they are mixing it as loud as possible. SOS: “In general, I get my mixes to be pretty slamming. I give them to the mastering engineer as hot as I can get it!" All, clearly, in the service of getting his mixes to sound as big and aggressive and 21st century as possible. As Cooley says, it's like the "'90s on steroids"!” Right, but I thought the point was everything would be at -16. Obviously it’s not. |
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Post by ml on May 10, 2022 16:55:13 GMT -6
Because they aren’t submitting -14db masters, more like -7db and then letting the service turn it down. If you ever read any of those SOS inside track articles, they are mixing it as loud as possible. SOS: “In general, I get my mixes to be pretty slamming. I give them to the mastering engineer as hot as I can get it!" All, clearly, in the service of getting his mixes to sound as big and aggressive and 21st century as possible. As Cooley says, it's like the "'90s on steroids"!” Right, but I thought the point was everything would be at -16. Obviously it’s not. Yeah I have definitely noticed this as well. Could it be the mix? I have released songs mixed by different people and some are definitely louder than others. But I also wonder about a loud master being turned down vs a quiet one being turned up. Theres so much conflicting info out there. |
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Post by Chad on May 10, 2022 18:01:39 GMT -6
So....
What I’m hearing in this thread is...
The Loudness Wars are never going to end.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 19:16:29 GMT -6
So.... What I’m hearing in this thread is... The Loudness Wars are never going to end. Vintage warmer make kick go boom |
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Post by Chad on May 10, 2022 19:17:28 GMT -6
So.... What I’m hearing in this thread is... The Loudness Wars are never going to end. Vintage warmer make kick go boom 😂 |
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Post by craigmorris74 on May 10, 2022 21:32:04 GMT -6
In my opinion, it’s easier to make something like AC/DC sound loud because the music is so beat driven. There’s space between the notes, meaning your can turn the music up load as heck and it will have a nice average loudness. On there other hand, something like My Bloody Valentine sounds quieter on streaming because the music is raging constantly, giving you high average levels (but even they get around this a bit because their music isn’t bass heavy). Strummed guitars and constant pads are an enemy of streaming loudness.
Since modern pop music like most Lady Gaga songs hit hard as hell on the beat, with space in between, it’s easy to get the apparent loudness high on a lot of her tracks as well.
That said, if your song is good, but quiet, I’m not going to skip it, I’ll just turn it up.
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Post by thehightenor on May 11, 2022 0:17:20 GMT -6
Several years ago, I mixed and mastered a project to -14 LUFS because - as I understood it - the streaming services capped loudness sound that level. When I listen to it now, it’s dramatically less loud than everything else on the platforms. Just checked again now and something like the newest Lady Gaga song is dramatically louder. What am I missing? I have the same experience with some projects that I’ve worked on. It’s super frustrating. I think that some of the top mastering engineers working at the highest levels have tricks or possibly insider knowledge to make their tracks standout. Or …. Spotify have different playback levels depending who you are? |
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Post by allbuttonmode on May 11, 2022 1:21:18 GMT -6
Or …. Spotify have different playback levels depending who you are?
If they aren't already, you just gave them a new idea.
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Post by thehightenor on May 11, 2022 4:35:28 GMT -6
Or …. Spotify have different playback levels depending who you are?
If they aren't already, you just gave them a new idea.
Lol I’m sure they’ve thought of everything possible to milk the max out of their business model! |
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Post by ml on May 12, 2022 15:13:47 GMT -6
So.... What I’m hearing in this thread is... The Loudness Wars are never going to end. Not anytime soon unless all of the major DSP's get together and decide on a unified loudness requirement and reject anything that doesn't meet those parameters. |
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