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Post by jaba on May 7, 2022 12:00:12 GMT -6
How do you like the Tokyo Dawn Limiter's clipper Dan? And the TD Limiter 6 in general? It’s great for mastering but how the hell do you mix into a milder version of Molot, a dynamic high frequency shelf (the de-esser), an oversampled clipper meant to clip spurious pops and stuff, and a limiter that can be set as multiband? It’s impossible. Funny, I've started mixing through Limiter 6 and it's been fine. Then again I'm just using the HF limiter and peak limiter (in multiband) with each just touching the peaks now and again. If I bypass it I don't hear much of a difference, and if I do it's likely what the HF limiter is doing. Just trying it out - the idea being to tame a few peaks here/there, a several-things-each-doing-a-little-bit approach along with whatever else ends up on the 2-buss - so we'll see if it's working for me or not but so far I can't say I hear any negatives, though set to Insane it's a decent left hook to the cpu.
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Post by OtisGreying on May 7, 2022 20:09:25 GMT -6
How do you like the Tokyo Dawn Limiter's clipper Dan? And the TD Limiter 6 in general? It’s great for mastering but how the hell do you mix into a milder version of Molot, a dynamic high frequency shelf (the de-esser), an oversampled clipper meant to clip spurious pops and stuff, and a limiter that can be set as multiband? It’s impossible. This separates the functions that most digital limiters claim not to do but are doing or trying to do behind the scenes. PSP Xenon does this too with the glorified clipper and leveler. So they can be much cleaner than say Fabfilter Pro L if operated with care and intent for smaller amounts of gain reduction. Because they’re not simple volume maximizers that level, transient modify, clip, and pump based on program dependent holds. Now people expect limiters to preserve “punch” or some other non-technical term because they’re used to digital limiters that cannot limit. Yes Waves L1 and L2 were developed by smart people yet terrible for sound quality. L1 manual recommended -.3 db headroom lol when the real peaks could be 4-5 db or more higher on these peaky itb productions. Limiters designed openly as distortion devices like the Oxford and Faraday Limiters perform better lol. You don’t even want to use the latter two’s full functions to try to catch stray peaks from lack of peak control in digital mixes because they will cause more harshness and distortion trying to stop the stray over than letting it through on a decent system. And those old “limiters” can’t limit either like a working fast attack compressor. They can only see the samples. Even the standard true peak readouts are +/- 1db all the time. So some limiter from the 90s or early 2000s on your two bus to try not to clip the converters or 24 bit fixed point pcm mix down won’t even work at that. These modern limiters that can like TDR Limiter 6 GE or DMG Limitless are heavy as lead cpu use wise and DMG has a lot do stuff going on the background like the earlier limiters that TDR separated out for more control. You can’t mix into that easily on most computers. Now people still refuse to mix at lower levels or print floating point mix downs meaning the .wav file can’t clip. It’s like people don’t know what floating point audio is. The only problem with printing as 64 or 32 bit float is a little program named Apple Logic truncates 32-bit float files to 24-bit fixed upon import, distorting slightly. Lots of people won’t go out of their way to convert it to 24-bit fixed themselves with an external program or are ignorant of what Logic is doing there so it’s better to just lower the gain to where it won’t clip and print the mix as dithered 24-bit fixed point file to make opening it seemless. The Apple daw can’t even open all the files it can export… Yeah on my mine right now I just have the clipper and the peak limiter going on the mixbuss. seems to work pretty good but yeah I wouldn't wanna be messing with all the options on. I'ts really only hitting on the snare but that kinda makes me think I aught to just put the limiter on the snare track and maybe just reset the limiter to the mix buss - but again it sounds good atm so whatever
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Post by robschnapf on May 9, 2022 12:46:29 GMT -6
Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know…
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Post by jaba on May 9, 2022 13:52:35 GMT -6
Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know… Well put. Compression usually get thrown in at least halfway into the mix over here. Limiter is on but barely moving if at all, and gets fine tuned at the end. So mixing into the limiter is not the best way to phrase it, but I do mix into compression from the 50-70% mark. Things like Satin (when ITB mixing) are there from the start as they affect the overall tone, and gets fine tuned as I go. Any EQ would usually be near the end as well.
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Post by svart on May 9, 2022 14:00:25 GMT -6
Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know… See, I feel the opposite way. Mixing into that stuff gets me to a point where if the mastering guy goes to town to get levels up, it won't end up sounding tonally different. I used to prescribe to the "get things together then put the bus on" thing too, but I always felt like I had to go back and tweak everything to get it sounding right. Why mix it twice?
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Post by mcirish on May 9, 2022 14:34:22 GMT -6
I only use a limiter (post master fader) to protect the speakers from clipping while I mix. Once I feel like I got the mix where I want it. I will add some compression and EQ to the master bus if needed when comparing it to other mixes. That's usually very subtle. I don't hit the limiter, even if I will master it myself. If there is no budget, I will master, but in a different session than the mix and I do a lot of A/B comparisons to known good masters. If I am sending it out to be mastered (most of the time) I will make sure the mix is where I want it but I don't have it hitting the limiter. I want to leave room for him/her to do their thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2022 15:30:42 GMT -6
Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know… If your mix doesn't fall apart, then you're not using mix bus compression right because you're using it like a special effect on the mix and not to modulate your fader moves by having the signal always be above the threshold with multiple release co-efficients and lots of program dependency or feedback. Your mix falls apart because your fader moves are all grossly wrong when you take it off. The two bus compressor also allows more creative or looser fader movements where you don't have to plan it all in advance and then automate or ride it meticulously. You can create more emotion as the mixer and more cohesion while making your mix resistant to heavy handed hack mastering jobs and broadcast normalization and limiting because if dig in, they destroy the balance. and there are a lot of good mix bus compressors with no fully working digital equivalents. The officially licensed digital versions can only be a special effect like all the API 2500 and Focusrite plugs. Nobody has even dared to make a DBX 164 or MXR 136 plug hahahaha. There are a handful of good modern plugs (or older plugs with heavily filtered sidechains) that have no analog equivalent. You can set Presswerk or Kotelnikov to have a more pillowly secondary release than any hardware if you really want to. Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know… See, I feel the opposite way. Mixing into that stuff gets me to a point where if the mastering guy goes to town to get levels up, it won't end up sounding tonally different. I used to prescribe to the "get things together then put the bus on" thing too, but I always felt like I had to go back and tweak everything to get it sounding right. Why mix it twice? Agreed 100%. Get a 2 bus chain that makes it sound better and make it bang and even by riding faders. It often makes it immune to hack mastering jobs and able to take more gentle mastering compression too because everything is more controlled already. Also the bus compressor makes stuff survive lossy codecs better. Ableton licensing the Glue at 2x oversampling was the best thing to ever happen to soundcloud electronica. The average playback chain has more lossy digital processing than ever. Lossy codecs, being streamed over bluetooth (another lossy codec) to an earbud. A lot of people just listen on youtube too and not even in HD so it's really bad. A working bus compressor to shove stuff down, distort it more, and without a lot of overshoots helps a lot but a lot of this music is mixed now without any bus compressor or by guys itb who are still using stuff that was hype in 2005 or 2010 but pretty ineffective so there's just no peak control on the individual tracks that's not clipping and the bus compressor is just not shoving down the faders that well on these mixes and often distortion on the vocals and it might sound cool but distorted in lossless (lots of modern rap) or on cd but it sounds awful on spotify. The Sisters of Mercy are a great example of cool sounding drum samplers that just don't survive the codecs. Play them on Youtube and the drum sounds just have the life sucked out of them.
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Post by jaba on May 9, 2022 19:04:21 GMT -6
See, I feel the opposite way. Mixing into that stuff gets me to a point where if the mastering guy goes to town to get levels up, it won't end up sounding tonally different. I used to prescribe to the "get things together then put the bus on" thing too, but I always felt like I had to go back and tweak everything to get it sounding right. Why mix it twice? Interesting take on it. What usually works best for me is to find a balance that feels right for the performance, maybe do some group compression, then add any 2-buss comp. I've found putting it on too early can start to force the balance in a certain direction a bit too much. Attack/release/ratio change song to song, depending. If the band's sounding stiff then the compression gets put on earlier as it can really help get them moving a bit. But even when mixing a great band there's still a good chunk of time leaning into a 2-buss comp, just not from the get go. Best of both worlds!
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Post by deaconblues on May 9, 2022 20:44:53 GMT -6
Ableton licensing the Glue at 2x oversampling was the best thing to ever happen to soundcloud electronica. Big facts right here! I lol'd.
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Post by OtisGreying on May 10, 2022 2:45:37 GMT -6
When I dont mix with mix buss compression on I find I'm overly treating individual sources so they fit together in the mix - whereas if I put my C1LA on there, they are already somewhat glued and cohesive sounding and I feel much less need to carve frequencies and making sources really thin to lean out the low mids so they fit with other sounds - but then they don't sound as natural sometimes being so lean, whereas the bus compression glues them together so they don't need to be so leaned out to sound right. But I guess you could just compress tracks individually and have no mix buss too, I guess there's no right way.
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Post by robschnapf on May 10, 2022 4:36:49 GMT -6
Once I feel like I have a mix together and balances are all gelling then I put on my compression limiting or whatever. You get higher resolution blends if you’re not mixing into that stuff from the start. In other words your mix won’t fall apart when you take the chain off of it. And I think you can also use the chain to better results when implementing in this way. What do I know… See, I feel the opposite way. Mixing into that stuff gets me to a point where if the mastering guy goes to town to get levels up, it won't end up sounding tonally different. I used to prescribe to the "get things together then put the bus on" thing too, but I always felt like I had to go back and tweak everything to get it sounding right. Why mix it twice? I’m only mixing once. and the records sound good.
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Post by sean on May 10, 2022 8:42:00 GMT -6
I'm with Rob on this one, and I've tried it many ways. I'll get the mix happening and when I feel like it's done, or close to it, I'll start trying thing on the mix buss to see if it helps, or hurts. I also try to make sure it's level matched as best as possible so I'm not fooled by volume. For me, lately, sometimes a pair of Spectra V610's in peak limiting mode helps grab those nasty high frequency peaks that eat up digital headroom with little effect on the dynamics/feel of the mix. It grabs that stuff you don't really hear, but causes digital peaks when you to print the mix. And if you do hear it working then you're probably hitting them too hard. For bluegrass, that really helps with banjo and mandolins. But also stuff with clean electric guitars that'll have notes pop out.
And then other times I'll use a harmonic device like the Overstayer MAS or a Highland BG1 (not really compressing just using it for the boxes tone) which again, you don't really always hear until you A/B and take it away. Those can help makes things less "digital" sounding. For me this is sort of my replacement for mixing to a tape machine.
With EQ on the mix, I'll try it towards the end. In my case it’ll be a top end boost because I tend to mix too dull, and that boost usually makes certain things sound better, and other things worse (like, it adds sibilance to a vocal or makes it thin/harsh) so I'll go back and adjust the EQ on the elements that were improved by that mix buss EQ, and then it's usually no longer needed on the mix, or it's .5dB instead of 2dB or something.
But I'm also getting to the point where I'm compressing a lot less in general and instead trying to make EQ adjustments to address what is uneven in the source that makes me want to reach for a compressor. Usually its peak energy or the build up of a certain frequency and once that's addressed, I don't need a compressor any more. Of course that's not as relevant if you are using compression in a creative way, but for simple level balancing, make sure it's not something that's better addressed with EQ.
Also it's incredibly reductive to tell Rob that he's doing it "wrong" when he works on records people actually listen too...
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Post by notneeson on May 10, 2022 11:21:54 GMT -6
^^ And on that point, I am digging the new Kurt Vile.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 12:26:19 GMT -6
I'm with Rob on this one, and I've tried it many ways. I'll get the mix happening and when I feel like it's done, or close to it, I'll start trying thing on the mix buss to see if it helps, or hurts. I also try to make sure it's level matched as best as possible so I'm not fooled by volume. For me, lately, sometimes a pair of Spectra V610's in peak limiting mode helps grab those nasty high frequency peaks that eat up digital headroom with little effect on the dynamics/feel of the mix. It grabs that stuff you don't really hear, but causes digital peaks when you to print the mix. And if you do hear it working then you're probably hitting them too hard. For bluegrass, that really helps with banjo and mandolins. But also stuff with clean electric guitars that'll have notes pop out. And then other times I'll use a harmonic device like the Overstayer MAS or a Highland BG1 (not really compressing just using it for the boxes tone) which again, you don't really always hear until you A/B and take it away. Those can help makes things less "digital" sounding. For me this is sort of my replacement for mixing to a tape machine. With EQ on the mix, I'll try it towards the end. In my case it’ll be a top end boost because I tend to mix too dull, and that boost usually makes certain things sound better, and other things worse (like, it adds sibilance to a vocal or makes it thin/harsh) so I'll go back and adjust the EQ on the elements that were improved by that mix buss EQ, and then it's usually no longer needed on the mix, or it's .5dB instead of 2dB or something. But I'm also getting to the point where I'm compressing a lot less in general and instead trying to make EQ adjustments to address what is uneven in the source that makes me want to reach for a compressor. Usually its peak energy or the build up of a certain frequency and once that's addressed, I don't need a compressor any more. Of course that's not as relevant if you are using compression in a creative way, but for simple level balancing, make sure it's not something that's better addressed with EQ. Also it's incredibly reductive to tell Rob that he's doing it "wrong" when he works on records people actually listen too... I don't know who anyone is. I just dig the full special effect of many compressors on many settings only starts when you really dig in. I don't just mean 4 db like whatever people say to use the SSL bus at. Oldtimer I often have at like 12 db of gain reduction, Kotelnikov I have go to 15 db of gr pretty often in Inertia, the RNC in Super Nice can hit that 16 db LED. Of course this means you have to set your balance with them on or constantly ride faders and fully accept whatever your two bus chain is doing as a positive thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 14:33:12 GMT -6
robschnapf Sorry, I didn't mean to correct you or anything, I just meant like using bus compression as a crazy baked deep in the mix special effect to get that compressor to be totally "internal" to the mix as some crazy automatic volume modulator to your benefit or detriment. I'll often do like 1-3 db off just to take the edge off something or some insane -15 db off or so on different tracks on the same record. Just a lot of these compressors and settings, I can only get to not be stupid pumpy or a ducking effect during rim shots or choruses at crazy gain reductions
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 14:39:16 GMT -6
I'm with Rob on this one, and I've tried it many ways. I'll get the mix happening and when I feel like it's done, or close to it, I'll start trying thing on the mix buss to see if it helps, or hurts. I also try to make sure it's level matched as best as possible so I'm not fooled by volume. For me, lately, sometimes a pair of Spectra V610's in peak limiting mode helps grab those nasty high frequency peaks that eat up digital headroom with little effect on the dynamics/feel of the mix. It grabs that stuff you don't really hear, but causes digital peaks when you to print the mix. And if you do hear it working then you're probably hitting them too hard. For bluegrass, that really helps with banjo and mandolins. But also stuff with clean electric guitars that'll have notes pop out. And then other times I'll use a harmonic device like the Overstayer MAS or a Highland BG1 (not really compressing just using it for the boxes tone) which again, you don't really always hear until you A/B and take it away. Those can help makes things less "digital" sounding. For me this is sort of my replacement for mixing to a tape machine. With EQ on the mix, I'll try it towards the end. In my case it’ll be a top end boost because I tend to mix too dull, and that boost usually makes certain things sound better, and other things worse (like, it adds sibilance to a vocal or makes it thin/harsh) so I'll go back and adjust the EQ on the elements that were improved by that mix buss EQ, and then it's usually no longer needed on the mix, or it's .5dB instead of 2dB or something. But I'm also getting to the point where I'm compressing a lot less in general and instead trying to make EQ adjustments to address what is uneven in the source that makes me want to reach for a compressor. Usually its peak energy or the build up of a certain frequency and once that's addressed, I don't need a compressor any more. Of course that's not as relevant if you are using compression in a creative way, but for simple level balancing, make sure it's not something that's better addressed with EQ. Also it's incredibly reductive to tell Rob that he's doing it "wrong" when he works on records people actually listen too... What do you do with the brain drill electric guitar midranges that are harsh but eqing them out or compressing them sounds bad? I usually run them into the red a bit on something.
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Post by robschnapf on May 10, 2022 14:58:38 GMT -6
robschnapf Sorry, I didn't mean to correct you or anything, I just meant like using bus compression as a crazy baked deep in the mix special effect to get that compressor to be totally "internal" to the mix as some crazy automatic volume modulator to your benefit or detriment. I'll often do like 1-3 db off just to take the edge off something or some insane -15 db off or so on different tracks on the same record. Just a lot of these compressors and settings, I can only get to not be stupid pumpy or a ducking effect during rim shots or choruses at crazy gain reductions no need to apologize. My feelings arent going to be bruised about a thread. I was just sharing what i learned on the ever evolving travels. I took it as you doing the same. You do you.
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Post by sean on May 10, 2022 16:21:03 GMT -6
I'm with Rob on this one, and I've tried it many ways. I'll get the mix happening and when I feel like it's done, or close to it, I'll start trying thing on the mix buss to see if it helps, or hurts. I also try to make sure it's level matched as best as possible so I'm not fooled by volume. For me, lately, sometimes a pair of Spectra V610's in peak limiting mode helps grab those nasty high frequency peaks that eat up digital headroom with little effect on the dynamics/feel of the mix. It grabs that stuff you don't really hear, but causes digital peaks when you to print the mix. And if you do hear it working then you're probably hitting them too hard. For bluegrass, that really helps with banjo and mandolins. But also stuff with clean electric guitars that'll have notes pop out. And then other times I'll use a harmonic device like the Overstayer MAS or a Highland BG1 (not really compressing just using it for the boxes tone) which again, you don't really always hear until you A/B and take it away. Those can help makes things less "digital" sounding. For me this is sort of my replacement for mixing to a tape machine. With EQ on the mix, I'll try it towards the end. In my case it’ll be a top end boost because I tend to mix too dull, and that boost usually makes certain things sound better, and other things worse (like, it adds sibilance to a vocal or makes it thin/harsh) so I'll go back and adjust the EQ on the elements that were improved by that mix buss EQ, and then it's usually no longer needed on the mix, or it's .5dB instead of 2dB or something. But I'm also getting to the point where I'm compressing a lot less in general and instead trying to make EQ adjustments to address what is uneven in the source that makes me want to reach for a compressor. Usually its peak energy or the build up of a certain frequency and once that's addressed, I don't need a compressor any more. Of course that's not as relevant if you are using compression in a creative way, but for simple level balancing, make sure it's not something that's better addressed with EQ. Also it's incredibly reductive to tell Rob that he's doing it "wrong" when he works on records people actually listen too... What do you do with the brain drill electric guitar midranges that are harsh but eqing them out or compressing them sounds bad? I usually run them into the red a bit on something. I don't run into that very often, but I'd probably do something similar to what I do with poorly recorded tracks someone did at their house. I occasionally get tracks that have lots of weird resonant frequencies so I'll try using some sharp Q's and cut them out, like you would ring out a monitor on stage, or make those bands dynamic EQ if having them static kills the tone. Pro DSM seems to work pretty well for this too. I'm sure that Soothe would as well but I don't own that plugin and while it seems pretty popular for vocals when I demo'd it I didn't like what it did to the tone. The Highland BG1 is a compressor that I'll use as you described in your other post where the meters might show 5 or 8 dB of gain reduction at all times with a really slow attack and release time but the meter is actually only moving gently. Bryce the designer described that in the manual and I find it can work well with acoustic music...it just sort of hugs everything in it's tone. You just have to "prime" it before you print the mix or use the hold function because it'll really clamp down on that first note...like on a RS-124.
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Post by robschnapf on May 10, 2022 20:42:14 GMT -6
Bryce is awesome. Great gear he makes. -Yoda
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 20:57:46 GMT -6
robschnapf Sorry, I didn't mean to correct you or anything, I just meant like using bus compression as a crazy baked deep in the mix special effect to get that compressor to be totally "internal" to the mix as some crazy automatic volume modulator to your benefit or detriment. I'll often do like 1-3 db off just to take the edge off something or some insane -15 db off or so on different tracks on the same record. Just a lot of these compressors and settings, I can only get to not be stupid pumpy or a ducking effect during rim shots or choruses at crazy gain reductions no need to apologize. My feelings arent going to be bruised about a thread. I was just sharing what i learned on the ever evolving travels. I took it as you doing the same. You do you. I even feel I evolve track to track with the same record, even talking the band. This one group recorded onto a Tascam 424. They were using a Sunn PA as a cab and it worked wonderfully until it broke and the third track was a Behringer cab for both guitar and bass that I had to mix like a punk record but it is still coming out okay.
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Post by Guitar on May 10, 2022 21:04:38 GMT -6
I mix into a limiter. I put it on, I take it off. I listen, I mix. I use a limiter. I'm so limited.
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Post by Ward on May 11, 2022 8:46:56 GMT -6
I mix into a limiter. I put it on, I take it off. I listen, I mix. I use a limiter. I'm so limited. But are you, in effect, limiting yourself?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 9:38:53 GMT -6
When I dont mix with mix buss compression on I find I'm overly treating individual sources so they fit together in the mix - whereas if I put my C1LA on there, they are already somewhat glued and cohesive sounding and I feel much less need to carve frequencies and making sources really thin to lean out the low mids so they fit with other sounds - but then they don't sound as natural sometimes being so lean, whereas the bus compression glues them together so they don't need to be so leaned out to sound right. But I guess you could just compress tracks individually and have no mix buss too, I guess there's no right way. No there isn't, as you said I like the effect of certain mastering limiters when you're not trying to smash them into oblivion. Also let me be blunt for a sec (mainly to myself) for the 10 people that (might, possibly?) listen to my tracks I'm not sure it's worth handing them off. On top of that if it sounds really good and translates perfectly across most modern mediums I don't want someone else messing about with it.. Usually if I'm getting an ME involved something's gone south. But I don't work in commercial audio anymore (haven't for a long time) so my point of view probably won't correlate, I'm sure some of the factors discussed is down to circumstances and POV. Work sucks up most of my time but provides the shiny's and I have weeks, months, a year to deliver on something so ear fatigue isn't an issue.. If I worked for a label, mixing studio or in post etc. I'd most likely approach this entire thing differently although I don't so it's not applicable to moi.
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Post by Guitar on May 11, 2022 12:19:45 GMT -6
I mix into a limiter. I put it on, I take it off. I listen, I mix. I use a limiter. I'm so limited. But are you, in effect, limiting yourself? There are no limits, there is no self.
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Post by Ward on May 11, 2022 16:45:55 GMT -6
But are you, in effect, limiting yourself? There are no limits, there is no self. I should know my limits by now.
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