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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 1, 2022 13:06:30 GMT -6
It’s officially approved by the wife. We are going all in with a jam space. Currently I have to drive a bit over an hour to get to our band practice room and as I get older the drive home is brutal! Plus my wife can’t come unless we pay for a sitter so it has been a huge bummer and she hasn’t been included much with her singing song writing.
anyway, my current recording/ mixing room is directly above the garage. I’m thinking I want to integrate the two spaces and create a great sounding tracking room in addition to jam room.
im looking for thoughts and advice for the build. The room is about 25’ square x 10’ tall
sound quality is number 1 consideration. I want it to sound rock and roll!
so what to do with the floor? Leave it concrete with a few carpet throws or should I furor it out and do wood?
im thinking hybrid/analog mixer and snake it up to my mixer room for recording.
man this is going to be a lot of fun and my gear lust is going crazy!
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Post by Ned Ward on May 1, 2022 19:29:17 GMT -6
Congrats! Lots of articles on setting up practice spaces.
Things to think about:
Get the wall-mount PA speaker stands to have them at the right height facing you - makes a difference.
25' is a small room. don't know what type of music and if you live where you can practice with the garage door open but it makes a difference.
multicore analog snakes are cheap used as people upgrade to digital. you may find bargains here to connect the rooms.
Learn how to build bass traps. I'd get industrial carpet for the floors - I think you'll find the garage will be plenty bright...
Who else is in your band? Drummer? Guitar player? remember, loudest sound wins, so figure out how to keep the volume down so you can all hear each other, but you're not getting into volume wars.
Good luck!
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 1, 2022 22:04:07 GMT -6
It’s going to be mostly hard rock and old school ish metal. I’m not too worried about neighbors, we know everyone well and we will definitely do some treatment but I’m primarily concerned about sound quality.
Anyone can recommend a few models of analog mixers to look in to?
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Post by drbill on May 2, 2022 18:37:43 GMT -6
#1 - SEAL the front garage door. Well. Build a complete new wall instead of the door. Then, consider a room inside a room with heavy insulation. Heavy rock and neighbors don't really work out well long term. You neighbors might move, and you might get the new neighbor from hell. It happens. Next - the most important thing - HVAC.
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Post by jampa on May 2, 2022 22:10:01 GMT -6
We did something similar
Made a room within a room. Left floor as concrete with rugs. Bought quality doors and worked on the seal. Vent for fresh air in, vent for room air out. Bought a $50 sound level meter and measured before and after
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 3, 2022 9:31:20 GMT -6
Yes the garage door is a problem. We are hoping to be able to keep it usable to pull my wife’s small car in. My bandmates garage he built a hinged door with a smaller blockout on the top for the door but it seems like a lot of effort.
I’m wondering about something flexible that can be rolled up and secured at the top. MLV maybe?
We have the furnace/AC in one corner so I am thinking just have a closeable duct added.
The biggest issue is what to do with all the stuff currently in there! I’m going to end up probably building a shed first.
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 3, 2022 9:37:14 GMT -6
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Post by srb on May 3, 2022 9:58:37 GMT -6
For noise control...possibly, but I wouldn't bet on those acoustically. |
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Post by drbill on May 3, 2022 11:19:56 GMT -6
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Post by srb on May 3, 2022 11:27:48 GMT -6
Ah, the Tao of sound: like water it will find its own weight.  |
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 3, 2022 14:39:10 GMT -6
I’m not expecting miracles but even the teenager garage band technique of putting carpet up does stop some of the sound. Currently with the garage door it blocks almost zero sound. Those heavy MLV sheets have got to be better than carpet though.
This is a big point for sure and may end up building a wall with a door. hmmmmm.
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Post by jmoose on May 3, 2022 15:14:09 GMT -6
You'll have to decide if you want a functional garage space or a functional, good sounding studio/jam space. Those two things do not live in domestic bliss... quite honestly it sounds like if the wife "gave permission" but still wants to park a car inside? Then you probably don't actually have permission to build.
Can throw $100k at "soundproofing materials" and HVAC but if the big door doesn't get sealed off there's no point in that sort of effort.
Answers to questions like what to do with the floor are really going to depend on two main factors... How you want the space to function and secondly, overall budget or lack of. Money tends to dictate a lot.
Having designed & built several spaces including a couple garage conversions for friends... if you ask 100 people for advice you'll get 100 different answers. Probably most based on what they personally did rather then something relevant for your situation. And everyone's build situation & needs are completely different. About the only common goal is having a room that serves a very specific function.
Probably best generic advice falls on three points.
1) Plan everything out before building. Sit down and draw it out to scale... write up a list of materials. Where electrical needs to be... your furnace & HVAC situation which would include anything related to local codes including clearances around those objects & other doorways.
2) Talk to a professional. Someone who's done this a few times. Ideally this is step #1 - but at the very least a consultation to look over your step 1 plans before swinging a hammer. Often they'll find things to change & improve etc and potentially avoid very costly mistakes.
3) Figure out your budget for the project. Budget dictates everything. If you have short money, say $5-10k you'll have to cut corners vs a $50k build.
The best spaces have almost always had a plan cemented before anyone touched a hammer. Some of the worst are when nobody really has a plan and we're just making it up as we go along. There's always an element of that in every build... the unknown... but like producing an album pre-planning is vitally important to success.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 3, 2022 20:14:27 GMT -6
You'll have to decide if you want a functional garage space or a functional, good sounding studio/jam space. Those two things do not live in domestic bliss... quite honestly it sounds like if the wife "gave permission" but still wants to park a car inside? Then you probably don't actually have permission to build. Can throw $100k at "soundproofing materials" and HVAC but if the big door doesn't get sealed off there's no point in that sort of effort. Answers to questions like what to do with the floor are really going to depend on two main factors... How you want the space to function and secondly, overall budget or lack of. Money tends to dictate a lot. Having designed & built several spaces including a couple garage conversions for friends... if you ask 100 people for advice you'll get 100 different answers. Probably most based on what they personally did rather then something relevant for your situation. And everyone's build situation & needs are completely different. About the only common goal is having a room that serves a very specific function. Probably best generic advice falls on three points. 1) Plan everything out before building. Sit down and draw it out to scale... write up a list of materials. Where electrical needs to be... your furnace & HVAC situation which would include anything related to local codes including clearances around those objects & other doorways. 2) Talk to a professional. Someone who's done this a few times. Ideally this is step #1 - but at the very least a consultation to look over your step 1 plans before swinging a hammer. Often they'll find things to change & improve etc and potentially avoid very costly mistakes. 3) Figure out your budget for the project. Budget dictates everything. If you have short money, say $5-10k you'll have to cut corners vs a $50k build. The best spaces have almost always had a plan cemented before anyone touched a hammer. Some of the worst are when nobody really has a plan and we're just making it up as we go along. There's always an element of that in every build... the unknown... but like producing an album pre-planning is vitally important to success. J you forgot one important and simple step: draw it out on the floor! Any attempts at isolation are going to cost you space and it’s so much easier to judge if it’s worth it in actual size. |
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Post by winetree on May 3, 2022 20:54:01 GMT -6
Yea, good above info. That garage door is like a screen door on a submarine.
First question asked above "So what to do with the floor?"
I've been building a new tracking room for over 3yrs.
and the last desision I need to make is what to do with the floors, not the first. Everything else was first.
Live floor, dead ceiling.
Live floor; Early reflections from the floor add to the sound.
Dead ceiling: Long reflections from a live ceiling create flanging or chousing. Dead ceiling would also help with your above sound isolation.
Sound proofing is transmission isolation. Sound won't transmit through a board that is cut in half.
A thick wall with connected layers will pass some frequency thru it.
Retro sound proofing an existing structure is always a bandaid.
To do it right, Seek advice, help and large financing.
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Post by jmoose on May 4, 2022 10:53:04 GMT -6
J you forgot one important and simple step: draw it out on the floor! Any attempts at isolation are going to cost you space and it’s so much easier to judge if it’s worth it in actual size. You want me to snap a chalk line? Red or blue? Or maybe you'd prefer tape? For me that's the last step before studding out the first wall & fully committing... find the centerline of the room, measure it 19 times to be sure... snap out the entire floor plan... measure & verify everything another 19 times... then start building. Yes isolation eats available space but that should be resolved in initial drafts. If it's not something went terribly wrong and or we're decidedly in camp B - making it up as we go along. Otherwise YMMV but it shouldn't be hard for even a junior level carpenter to calculate wall thickness & offsets... at least sketch it out on paper. If you can't sketch it you can't build it. |
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Post by Ward on May 4, 2022 13:00:47 GMT -6
SNIP but it shouldn't be hard for even a junior level carpenter to calculate wall thickness & offsets... at least sketch it out on paper. If you can't sketch it you can't build it. 2x4 walls. 3 1/2" for lumber/metal studs, 1/2" outside layer, 2x5/8" inside layer, 1/4" for green glue or acoustic sealant. Total = 7" thick wall. 2x6 walls. 5 1/2" for lumber/metal studs. rest is the same. Total = 9" wall 2x8 walls. 7 1/2" for studs. total 11" wall. Insulation inside all studs. If you want to add density/weight/bass stopping power . . . add another 1/4" thickness for every layer of Quiet Barrier, db Bloc or TMS. You usually only need one layer. |
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Post by Ned Ward on May 4, 2022 14:05:02 GMT -6
I get worried that you mention garage your wife needs to park in and Hard rock early metal - seems like a recipe for neighbor anger and tinnitus.
What amps are you dealing with? For reference, I use my Princeton Reverb in a 1 and 2 car garage practice and it's too loud on 5.
Part of the challenge is how much sound are you trying to reduce? If it's a Pearl Rock Star kit and 2 JCM800s or Dual Rectifiers, nothing will help you. If it's 20 watt amps with pedals and a drummer with dynamics, Hot Rods and lots of dampening, you may be able to make it work.
Mixer - how many channels, what's going through them?
More info needed to help make decisions.
Plenty of DIY kits using home repair store plastic tubs to get stuff off the ground/walls and on the ceiling, particularly if you have a roll-track garage door.
Look at carpet remnants of industrial carpeting - better than concrete and you won't care if your wife drives in on it.
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Post by drbill on May 4, 2022 15:49:29 GMT -6
SNIP but it shouldn't be hard for even a junior level carpenter to calculate wall thickness & offsets... at least sketch it out on paper. If you can't sketch it you can't build it. 2x4 walls. 3 1/2" for lumber/metal studs, 1/2" outside layer, 2x5/8" inside layer, 1/4" for green glue or acoustic sealant. Total = 7" thick wall. 2x6 walls. 5 1/2" for lumber/metal studs. rest is the same. Total = 9" wall 2x8 walls. 7 1/2" for studs. total 11" wall. Insulation inside all studs. If you want to add density/weight/bass stopping power . . . add another 1/4" thickness for every layer of Quiet Barrier, db Bloc or TMS. You usually only need one layer. If this is a double walled construction (presuming it would be if serious about reducing transmission issues, and also based on above comments) don't forget the space BETWEEN walls. The more the better, but it eats up space..... Also - if you're doing it anyway - you should ANGLE walls. I've done it both ways, but now prefer a vertical angle as opposed to eating up floor space. |
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Post by Ward on May 4, 2022 17:32:17 GMT -6
Great addition! Thanks drbill. I forget to mention certain details. |
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Post by Omicron9 on May 5, 2022 8:49:28 GMT -6
2x4 walls. 3 1/2" for lumber/metal studs, 1/2" outside layer, 2x5/8" inside layer, 1/4" for green glue or acoustic sealant. Total = 7" thick wall. 2x6 walls. 5 1/2" for lumber/metal studs. rest is the same. Total = 9" wall 2x8 walls. 7 1/2" for studs. total 11" wall. Insulation inside all studs. If you want to add density/weight/bass stopping power . . . add another 1/4" thickness for every layer of Quiet Barrier, db Bloc or TMS. You usually only need one layer. If this is a double walled construction (presuming it would be if serious about reducing transmission issues, and also based on above comments) don't forget the space BETWEEN walls. The more the better, but it eats up space..... Also - if you're doing it anyway - you should ANGLE walls. I've done it both ways, but now prefer a vertical angle as opposed to eating up floor space. A very big +1 on angling walls. This is a huge thing and I rarely hear anyone mention it. I did this in my previous studio and never had any issues with flutter echo or unwanted room nasties. There is a known formula for this; I used it, but now I can't locate it. It's x number of degrees of slant per x number of linear feet. -09 |
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Post by jmoose on May 5, 2022 10:23:16 GMT -6
A very big +1 on angling walls. This is a huge thing and I rarely hear anyone mention it. I did this in my previous studio and never had any issues with flutter echo or unwanted room nasties. There is a known formula for this; I used it, but now I can't locate it. It's x number of degrees of slant per x number of linear feet. There are a couple standard formula's that apply depending on size of room etc but a fairly typical one is 3" of angle per 10 feet of run... calculated from the overall average dimensions. So a 20 foot wall would be 6". If we're gonna get into the weeds & nitpick details then sure... wall build details & thickness? Don't forget whatever gets done to one side has to happen on the other side of the room. So overall that 7" thick wall with a 3" airgap? That takes 20" off the entire space. 10" per side. Oh... and offset? 6" per angled wall? Potentially another foot gone so we've lost almost 3 feet total. This is all assuming that level of material & build is needed... or can even be afforded. And at this point maybe we scared the guy off..? |
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 7, 2022 9:44:59 GMT -6
No it is definitely happening but it is going to be end of August before we start Wall slanting is a great thought!
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Post by Ned Ward on May 7, 2022 13:25:08 GMT -6
As for mixers, I'd look at digital so that you can run CAT-5 to upstairs and also control it if needed. something like a Mackie DL1608 which I use can be inexpensive, but also have effects and monitor sends for people as well as tablet/phone/PC control.
Otherwise, get a used Mackie 1402 or 1604 VLZ (not the cheaper stuff) and used effects boxes. Do not get a Yamaha MG anything. Allen and Heath Mix Wiz are probably cheap used these days as well..
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Post by tahoebrian5 on May 7, 2022 17:56:42 GMT -6
I’ve been thinking of using a splitter snake so everything gets piped upstairs to the ferrofish 16 for recording, then only split out what is needed in the PA so small simple mixer and eq for any feedback cuts needed. Only fx needed will be on vox I think, and I can generate these thru the Axefx3 on in/out ch2.
The angled wall idea has my wheels turning. Wondering about building the pa monitors into the wall more like recording studio mains.
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Post by Ned Ward on May 8, 2022 14:32:15 GMT -6
Unless you have an analog mixer with parametric EQ, you're not going to be able to deal with feedback. Get an inexpensive digital mixer with parametric on all channels. It's a lot more fun when you're not fighting with feedback, and effects are on the mixer vs. having to deal with in/out on the Axe FX. Glad to hear at least one of you has a rack guitar effect, so there's hope. I love all the comments from folks offering sage studio advice like angled walls, etc. but you have to remember you're dealing with a functioning garage your wife will drive in and out of. It's not going to be the best studio, but can be a fun rehearsal studio. But please stop overthinking this. Do not build your PA cabinets into the wall - they're not studio monitors and not designed for that. Get these - www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SS7322Bpr--on-stage-stands-ss7322b-adjustable-wall-mount-speaker-bracket or similar. mount to wall studs with lag bolts and they hold 80 pounds each. Keep it simple first, and then add what you need. Angled walls, soffit-mounted speakers sounds fun, but with a working garage it may be casting pearls before swine. |
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