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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 25, 2023 8:52:33 GMT -6
One reason I’ve just stayed at 48 for my personal recordings is because I connect my hear back system via adat and my headphone routing gets squirrely at the higher sample rates. I have thought there was more detail at 88.2 and 96, but once it was bounced, I thought any advantage was mitigated.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 25, 2023 12:35:13 GMT -6
192kHz because phase response is optimized at this speed. With my SONOSAX recorder can achieve a 90kHz. response on the top end. Of course I'm in the dusty old classical music recording business using hi-res mics. I didn’t know there was a big market for Bats buying music - you live and learn
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Post by chessparov on Oct 25, 2023 18:47:03 GMT -6
Unlike Billy Batts. Who had plenty of big hits. Years after Tommy took a shine to him. Chris
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kbb
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Post by kbb on Oct 26, 2023 22:41:50 GMT -6
I wish I could remember the reason I was given, but at least one celeb engineer friend has told me that 88.2 is better than 96k. The reason was technical IIRC...maybe about being a multiple of 44.1? I'll shut up now.
I got a new computer a couple of years ago (M1 Pro MacBook Pro) and been working on tracks at 192 as an experiment. Just audio recording here, no software instruments...at about 18 tracks, it's starting to buckle. I'm looking forward to finishing it and going back to something more reasonable to see if there's any perceptible difference. I've read that there's literally no reason to record at 192...I've always wondered why it exists then? Anyway, looking forward to descending back down to 88.2 where I was before. Audio performance in general is a little dicey up here in the clouds of 192.
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Post by bentley on Oct 26, 2023 23:11:14 GMT -6
Unlike Billy Batts. Who had plenty of big hits. Years after Tommy took a shine to him. Chris Not enough good fellas here appreciated this comment.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 27, 2023 8:07:57 GMT -6
The first Pacific Microsonics converter ran at 88.2 and 44.1. It could convert 88.2 to 44.1 in real time and sounded better than anything else in the'90s if you didn't have all day to process each song.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 27, 2023 12:49:29 GMT -6
The first Pacific Microsonics converter ran at 88.2 and 44.1. It could convert 88.2 to 44.1 in real time and sounded better than anything else in the'90s if you didn't have all day to process each song. I had a bunch of stuff mastered through one of their iterations.
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Post by lee on Oct 27, 2023 14:07:30 GMT -6
One reason I’ve just stayed at 48 for my personal recordings is because I connect my hear back system via adat and my headphone routing gets squirrely at the higher sample rates. I have thought there was more detail at 88.2 and 96, but once it was bounced, I thought any advantage was mitigated. Does running a higher sample rate change the latency on the Hearback?
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 27, 2023 16:58:02 GMT -6
One reason I’ve just stayed at 48 for my personal recordings is because I connect my hear back system via adat and my headphone routing gets squirrely at the higher sample rates. I have thought there was more detail at 88.2 and 96, but once it was bounced, I thought any advantage was mitigated. Does running a higher sample rate change the latency on the Hearback? No…it goes from 8 channels of adat to 4. So it messes up the routing.
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Post by lee on Oct 27, 2023 18:37:38 GMT -6
Does running a higher sample rate change the latency on the Hearback? No…it goes from 8 channels of adat to 4. So it messes up the routing. Right. I forgot that limitation of lightpipe.
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Post by earlevel on Oct 30, 2023 11:51:45 GMT -6
I wish I could remember the reason I was given, but at least one celeb engineer friend has told me that 88.2 is better than 96k. The reason was technical IIRC...maybe about being a multiple of 44.1? I'll shut up now. The math is easier. Converting 88.2->44.1 is just a lowpass filter, then every other sample is discarded (the lowpass is probably non-recursive, in which case only every other sample is computed and there's nothing to discard). Trivially easy math. But it doesn't mean much these days, as we have plenty of processing power, so 96->44.1 is no big deal. OTOH, considering the best arguments for higher sample rates, 88.2k fits the bill at a slightly lower data rate than 96k, so you could argue it makes more sense there too. But don't think I'm implying that I think 48/44.1 is inadequate. Just that there are some arguments for higher rates that have some ideas that I may not quite buy into, but if they are valid then 96/88.2 would make sense. Though probably a little lower, like 66k, would do just as well. I don't think there is a good reason for 192k and higher. Not for filters and phase considerations, nor added audio bandwidth.
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Post by earlevel on Oct 30, 2023 13:00:29 GMT -6
Does running a higher sample rate change the latency on the Hearback? I realize you were asking a specific question, but I'll use the opportunity to comment on the general idea. People often cite decreased latency as a benefit of running at higher rates. The problem is that we don't have latency from sampling, we have it from buffering. Buffering is there for a reason. For computers, it's mainly because you need to limit how often the host system is doing context changes. At 48k, that would be every 21 microseconds, so if we buffer 256 samples, we're at 5.3 milliseconds. We need buffering both ways, so that gets us over 10 ms of latency, single buffered. Someone might say that at 192k, a 256 samples buffer will cover a quarter as much time, and our latency is back down to to about 2.5 ms. But if your system can handle 2.5 ms between context switches, it can handle a 64 sample buffer at 48k for the same latency. And that's before noting that any processing (plugins, etc.) take four times the processor power at 192k, because the data rate is 4x. The latency argument for higher sample rates is a red herring, but it's often cited as a legitimate reason (look at GS).
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kbb
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Post by kbb on Oct 31, 2023 0:06:26 GMT -6
I wish I could remember the reason I was given, but at least one celeb engineer friend has told me that 88.2 is better than 96k. The reason was technical IIRC...maybe about being a multiple of 44.1? I'll shut up now. The math is easier. Converting 88.2->44.1 is just a lowpass filter, then every other sample is discarded (the lowpass is probably non-recursive, in which case only every other sample is computed and there's nothing to discard). Trivially easy math. But it doesn't mean much these days, as we have plenty of processing power, so 96->44.1 is no big deal. OTOH, considering the best arguments for higher sample rates, 88.2k fits the bill at a slightly lower data rate than 96k, so you could argue it makes more sense there too. But don't think I'm implying that I think 48/44.1 is inadequate. Just that there are some arguments for higher rates that have some ideas that I may not quite buy into, but if they are valid then 96/88.2 would make sense. Though probably a little lower, like 66k, would do just as well. I don't think there is a good reason for 192k and higher. Not for filters and phase considerations, nor added audio bandwidth. 1. Math...yes, that's ringing a bell, thank you! That also makes sense about current v. past processing power...it's been years since that conversation I referenced. 2. RE: the arguments for higher rates that you don't buy into that may or may not be valid...is it still theoretical? That's super interesting. I'd love to know more, but I may not know enough for the conversation. 3. I can't remember seeing anyone advocate for 192. Why on earth does it exist? :-) Thanks again for your response!
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Post by earlevel on Nov 5, 2023 12:08:20 GMT -6
The math is easier. Converting 88.2->44.1 is just a lowpass filter, then every other sample is discarded (the lowpass is probably non-recursive, in which case only every other sample is computed and there's nothing to discard). Trivially easy math. But it doesn't mean much these days, as we have plenty of processing power, so 96->44.1 is no big deal. OTOH, considering the best arguments for higher sample rates, 88.2k fits the bill at a slightly lower data rate than 96k, so you could argue it makes more sense there too. But don't think I'm implying that I think 48/44.1 is inadequate. Just that there are some arguments for higher rates that have some ideas that I may not quite buy into, but if they are valid then 96/88.2 would make sense. Though probably a little lower, like 66k, would do just as well. I don't think there is a good reason for 192k and higher. Not for filters and phase considerations, nor added audio bandwidth. 1. Math...yes, that's ringing a bell, thank you! That also makes sense about current v. past processing power...it's been years since that conversation I referenced. 2. RE: the arguments for higher rates that you don't buy into that may or may not be valid...is it still theoretical? That's super interesting. I'd love to know more, but I may not know enough for the conversation. 3. I can't remember seeing anyone advocate for 192. Why on earth does it exist? :-) Thanks again for your response! 2. Higher rates...basically, the arguments fall into two categories, frequency and phase. Can we hear the added frequencies? For the people who think we can, there's an embarrassing lack of evidence—we'd expect it could be proven easily with double blind testing. So, until someone proves we (or some) can hear higher than 20k, I feel pretty good about this one not being an issue. Some also contend that natural instruments can have significant components up to ~40k, so we should use higher rates just to be sure we capture everything that might possibly be hearable...again, even though they can't demonstrate that they can hear it. As for phase, it's mainly the idea that for the base rates (44.1/48k), the filters must be very steep. For analog filters, there is no choice but to have a large phase shift around the cutoff frequency. (A different issue with oversampling filters, where the first stage is digital and is often linear phase—for that, people worry about "pre-ringing". Feel free to ask if you want to discuss more.) The amount of phase shift is much greater than with analog gear and anything natural, so people contend that why digital audio doesn't sound as good as analog to them. Again, something that's not been proven with double blind testing, but it's an argument. In case anyone missed it, I'm happy with the base rates, and it leaves me a lot more processing power, but 88.2/96k at least addresses the two arguments above. The frequency argument is probably not as strong, since it's so easy to prove if it were true. For the phase argument, it probably comes down to what sample rate would allow a filter that is hard to argue against. IIRC, Dan Lavry wrote article that put the optimal rate at around 66k, which makes a lot of sense—high enough to nuke arguments about the filter characteristics, without being excessive. We have 88.2k and 96k as standard rates—more wasteful, but they are the lowest that would address the filter characteristics arguments. 3. Why 192k+...Some people feel that the more samples, the closer to analog (due to lack of understanding, of course). One pro on another forum said he does everything in 192k, always. And the higher rates have been supported on recording interfaces since back when they all sort of sucked at any supported rate. I'm not shaming anyone for using higher rates, just explaining reasoning behind my choices!
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kbb
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Post by kbb on Nov 5, 2023 21:18:13 GMT -6
I'm not shaming anyone for using higher rates, just explaining reasoning behind my choices! Thanks for breaking it down!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 22:48:20 GMT -6
1. Math...yes, that's ringing a bell, thank you! That also makes sense about current v. past processing power...it's been years since that conversation I referenced. 2. RE: the arguments for higher rates that you don't buy into that may or may not be valid...is it still theoretical? That's super interesting. I'd love to know more, but I may not know enough for the conversation. 3. I can't remember seeing anyone advocate for 192. Why on earth does it exist? :-) Thanks again for your response! 2. Higher rates...basically, the arguments fall into two categories, frequency and phase. Can we hear the added frequencies? For the people who think we can, there's an embarrassing lack of evidence—we'd expect it could be proven easily with double blind testing. So, until someone proves we (or some) can hear higher than 20k, I feel pretty good about this one not being an issue. Some also contend that natural instruments can have significant components up to ~40k, so we should use higher rates just to be sure we capture everything that might possibly be hearable...again, even though they can't demonstrate that they can hear it. As for phase, it's mainly the idea that for the base rates (44.1/48k), the filters must be very steep. For analog filters, there is no choice but to have a large phase shift around the cutoff frequency. (A different issue with oversampling filters, where the first stage is digital and is often linear phase—for that, people worry about "pre-ringing". Feel free to ask if you want to discuss more.) The amount of phase shift is much greater than with analog gear and anything natural, so people contend that why digital audio doesn't sound as good as analog to them. Again, something that's not been proven with double blind testing, but it's an argument. In case anyone missed it, I'm happy with the base rates, and it leaves me a lot more processing power, but 88.2/96k at least addresses the two arguments above. The frequency argument is probably not as strong, since it's so easy to prove if it were true. For the phase argument, it probably comes down to what sample rate would allow a filter that is hard to argue against. IIRC, Dan Lavry wrote article that put the optimal rate at around 66k, which makes a lot of sense—high enough to nuke arguments about the filter characteristics, without being excessive. We have 88.2k and 96k as standard rates—more wasteful, but they are the lowest that would address the filter characteristics arguments. 3. Why 192k+...Some people feel that the more samples, the closer to analog (due to lack of understanding, of course). One pro on another forum said he does everything in 192k, always. And the higher rates have been supported on recording interfaces since back when they all sort of sucked at any supported rate. I'm not shaming anyone for using higher rates, just explaining reasoning behind my choices! Yeah all modern converter chips oversample massively with multi-bit delta-sigma modulation that noise shapes all the noise from the process far beyond the audible band, it is filtered by usually by a simple first order filter far above the audible band, the file is dithered, quantized, and resampled down, and nyquist filtered to the output sample rate and bit depth of the converter chip. The DA converters do the same but in reverse from the resultant pcm files. The anti-alias filters should be FIR filters to avoid phase shift in the audible band, adding latency. Unfortunately a lot of pro audio and hifi equipment manufacturers are cheapskates or incompetent and refuse to pay for chips with onboard filters with adequate band rejection or use external filters, use cheaper chips that use the 48 kHz filters at 44.1 kHz, and refuse to write low latency drivers or have onboard dsp so they will use steep IIR filters, claim almost adequate band rejection, and lower latencies than the FIR filters but the truth is part of the audio is still just as delayed all of the audio would be if they used FIR filters. Some like RME in their non mastering grade converters (The ADI-2 Pro series have FIR filters, more expensive parts, and higher latency) will use the cheaper chips with inadequate band rejection but shorter FIR anti-alias filters (lower latency and cheaper) and then add an external IIR filter to minimize aliasing at the expense of phase shift but not nearly as much as just using a higher order IIR filter with thousands of degrees of phase shift like poor older converters. That 10-20 dollar chips turned out to be cheaper and better than converter ics based upon laser trimmed resistor ladders that cost almost a hundred when they were made was a miracle for the electronics industry and its customers. Some of the ESS converters are now stupidly priced but they are inconsistent versus the cheaper ones and still drastically limited by the analog parts in the box. The extra 50 bucks of performance isn't going to matter in the real world at all when converting a signal from a quiet mic amplified by a quiet pre.
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2023 22:59:02 GMT -6
The first Pacific Microsonics converter ran at 88.2 and 44.1. It could convert 88.2 to 44.1 in real time and sounded better than anything else in the'90s if you didn't have all day to process each song. Pacific Microsonics, from the mind of Professor Johnson.
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