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Post by notneeson on Mar 25, 2022 12:05:59 GMT -6
 Hey RGO, been thinking about this for a few months and am about to pull the trigger. Or at least demo the dog kennel that stands in my way on this project. ibb.co/2ysw1PtI need a hybrid space where I can be on Zoom etc. and then also compose, record acoustic and vocals, and mix. The tuffshed pro studio is 10x12 with a sloping roof, lowest exterior roof height is 10' so interior ceilings are decent. I'm not able to consider a custom build for a variety of reasons. I also have become so intimate with my Sennheiser 650s that they are likely to remain a main reference in my work. But, I'd like the shed to have reasonable acoustics for what it is. You can see in the link that I have the desk in a (perhaps) odd spot. I really want to be able to look out the sliding glass doors as I'm doing my 9-5 at the desk. So that's a compromise I am ok with despite acoustic considerations. Black rectangle = desk, blue rectangles = monitors. To do this, my current thinking is to basically fill the framing with Roxul Safe n Sound. Then, put super chunk bass traps in all the corners. I am also thinking about adding additional framing to the back wall so I can get 6" of Safe n Sound bass trapping between the super chunks. Now, at that point only the sliding glass door and the floor will be reflective and I am (maybe?) in danger of having too dead of a room. To keep some ambience, I would like to add wainscoting to walls A, B, and C for additional reflectivity. Above the wainscoting I'll just put burlap from ATS as the wall covering, so all my first reflection points will be somewhat addressed. I would probably also put up 703 panels strategically if it feels needed, safe n sound is not precisely a broadband absorber at 3", but it also can't hurt and I need to insulate either way. I am not sure what to do about the ceiling. Burlap over safe n sound could be fine, but maybe I want to panel the back of the room ceiling area with wood? Lot's to think about. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 25, 2022 12:11:57 GMT -6
I would consider gluing craft paper onto the face of some of that insulation to retain some mid and high end energy. In that small space I’m guessing it’ll sound too dead and possibly boxy with too much high frequency absorption. The wanescotting will help. At the end of the day though, you just have to see how it sounds as you go.
Edit: you might want to reinforce the framing of the entire shed with cross prices between all the studs. It’s easy and quick and will stabilize the structure with all the additional weight you’re adding.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 25, 2022 12:15:21 GMT -6
I would consider gluing craft paper onto the face of some of that insulation to retain some mid and high end energy. In that small space I’m guessing it’ll sound too dead and possibly boxy with too much high frequency absorption. The wanescotting will help. At the end of the day though, you just have to see how it sounds as you go. Oh, that's super interesting. I like how low the barrier is to trying that out. Thanks. |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 25, 2022 13:41:33 GMT -6
I dunno. Leaving acoustic treatment aside for a second... I have serious doubts about how workable & comfortable that sort of thing would be long term. What's the cost for a "shed" like that? Raw building on a slab.
10x12 in a shed I think by the time you added basic insulation & finish... then trapping & panels etc... not to mention any HVAC considerations etc your basically in a shoe box. Those walls are going to close in fast...
By the time everything gets piled in from desk to speakers to guitars & mic cabinet etc in I'd be very afraid of winding up with something like a 7x9 workable space. Maybe less. Basically a walk in closet. Total sweat box. Forget about workable acoustics unless "not too shitty" is the goal?
But what's the total investment here? Are we talking $5k or $20k? More? Permits? Keeping in mind running electric etc?
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Post by notneeson on Mar 25, 2022 15:05:57 GMT -6
I dunno. Leaving acoustic treatment aside for a second... I have serious doubts about how workable & comfortable that sort of thing would be long term. What's the cost for a "shed" like that? Raw building on a slab. 10x12 in a shed I think by the time you added basic insulation & finish... then trapping & panels etc... not to mention any HVAC considerations etc your basically in a shoe box. Those walls are going to close in fast... By the time everything gets piled in from desk to speakers to guitars & mic cabinet etc in I'd be very afraid of winding up with something like a 7x9 workable space. Maybe less. Basically a walk in closet. Total sweat box. Forget about workable acoustics unless "not too shitty" is the goal? But what's the total investment here? Are we talking $5k or $20k? More? Permits? Keeping in mind running electric etc? These are great questions. "Not too shitty" would be a decent outcome, to be honest. These days I need an office more than I need a studio. Even more than that, I need a space on our property that is solely mine. The other humans in my life are awesome, but they're spread out across all corners of our house. And by the way, I have a shared space that's like, .5 miles away and it doesn't cut it. Need to work and be creative at home it turns out to be a major lifestyle upgrade for me. Here's a (kinda odd) video of someone who built an office in one of these things: You can maximize space by putting you desk up against wall A or C. But, then the slope of the roof runs from left to right, which might be odd. Also, I really love having a window to look out of when doing work and creative stuff. The unfinished box is a little under $11K installed, raw interior. I have an existing slab. That includes permits. I have a buddy who designs lighting systems and has offered to help with electrical. My hope is to DIY the fit out, maybe throw a few bucks at another buddy for some of the table saw work (I don't own one any longer). I'm hesitant on HVAC— we live in Northern California and would turn on AC maybe two weeks out of the year, if we had it. If a space heater doesn't work out, then I'll need to look at a mini split. Willing to roll the dice– since I'm not sheet rocking the shed won't be too hard to modify, I don't think. But the site selection is in my favor regarding heat, the site is in the shade most of the day. And with the sliding glass door open, it ought to be downright pleasant for 9 months out of the year. Interior dimensions are roughly 9'2" x 11'2" when sheet rocked, per the dealer. I don't need a ton of storage— mics will fit in a drawer, amps will be across the way in the basement, I'll hang my tele, p-bass, strat, and martin on Wall B on either side of the door. Midi controller will probably still be leaned up somewhere, or maybe I'll keep it on a stand. I don't think I can hack a built in keyboard tray because I'm 6'2" or so and those things always crowd me. My work will buy me a desk, and I'm looking at this one: output.com/products/platformI plan to downsize my outboard and make that amount of rack space work. Honestly, the last several years I have been doing some of my best work ever (my own music) with an LDC, and SDC, a 635a, and a pair of Quad Eight pres. So, jmoose I totally hear ya. But a larger space is not in the cards, this one will actually be larger than the nook I'm using in the main house. Add to which, my wife won't have to work on the dining room table anymore and that will upgrade our life tremendously. |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 25, 2022 17:51:32 GMT -6
Anyone remember that SSL "dream shed" or whatever they called it at AES a decade back..?
So at $11k lets call it an even $12k your probably about the same costs as gutting & soundproofing the same size room in your house. By the time you add everything else... electric & treatment etc say $20k all in. And it sounds like your already fairly committed to the idea...
The question to me is if that's a good investment or not. If you have $20k liquid cash why not put an addition on the current house? If its money... probably easier to get a loan for that vs a standalone... well, I'm calling it a glorified cubicle.
And at least around here if you ran electric... lights, heat, insulation etc the town is going to classify it as a living space which means you need a CO. $$$
If you do go ahead, realize that very likely the prime acoustic setup which would also generate the most floor space would be to put the desk & speakers on the rear wall... with your back to the sunlight.
Overall at a finished sheetrock dimension of approx 9x11... add 4" panels which eats 8" if you go that route? Almost a foot so about 8x10 finished? Is that realistically big enough? My control room is roughly 12x15 and with a singer, boom stand or two... couple guitars floating about... it can get kinda crunchy. YMMV.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 25, 2022 19:10:05 GMT -6
Anyone remember that SSL "dream shed" or whatever they called it at AES a decade back..? So at $11k lets call it an even $12k your probably about the same costs as gutting & soundproofing the same size room in your house. By the time you add everything else... electric & treatment etc say $20k all in. And it sounds like your already fairly committed to the idea... The question to me is if that's a good investment or not. If you have $20k liquid cash why not put an addition on the current house? If its money... probably easier to get a loan for that vs a standalone... well, I'm calling it a glorified cubicle. And at least around here if you ran electric... lights, heat, insulation etc the town is going to classify it as a living space which means you need a CO. $$$ If you do go ahead, realize that very likely the prime acoustic setup which would also generate the most floor space would be to put the desk & speakers on the rear wall... with your back to the sunlight. Overall at a finished sheetrock dimension of approx 9x11... add 4" panels which eats 8" if you go that route? Almost a foot so about 8x10 finished? Is that realistically big enough? My control room is roughly 12x15 and with a singer, boom stand or two... couple guitars floating about... it can get kinda crunchy. YMMV. Yeah, that all tracks. But we're in a 3 bedroom with two kids, and there's no room available to divvy up into a studio. Nor can I add square footage here. The room I'm in now is basically a family room and needs to stay that way. One of us can work in here 9-5, but it's not an option to build it out into a full room just for me. And my wife needs this room as much as I do, but she's part time so we have erred on the side of my using it and it's not sustainable for her to be at the dining table, she hates it. I thought about the attic, but there's no staircase and the ceilings are too high (14') to do one of those pull down ladders, I had a contractor check into it. (House is a 120 year old Queen Anne and very quirky). Right now the only attic access is through shimmying up a hatch in the ceiling of my daughters closet. Meanwhile the ceilings are pretty low in the attic and you can't add a dormer or any kind of pop out, it has to remain historically correct per the city's historic home codes. Would be nice for storage, but I'm not sure I could stomach working up there. I suppose a skylight or two would help and we could do that when we put the new roof on, assuming the city will let us. Around here I am guessing at least $10K just to get a staircase to the attic, which has no subfloor (or natural light). Construction costs are ridiculous and it's impossible to find a contractor. Meanwhile our basement is a glorified crawl space. Back to the shed idea: Aside from the corner traps, I am attempting to maximize the space somewhat by filling the studs with Roxul and the covering that with burlap. Maybe do rigid insulation in strategic spots. That way the "treated walls" do not diminish the 9x11 dimension. Maybe add a 2" 703 here and there, but I do want the space to feel habitable. Never going to be perfect. And I'm not liquid where I can just pay cash for this. I have about half the initial investment coming via windfall soon and because my employer does not provide a work space at all, e.g. fully remote, I believe I can write off the shed purchase. Will need to check with my accountant though. The other thing is, I have been getting a shed load of work (wrote and recorded 10 new tunes) done in a 4' x 6' nook. Granted the ceilings are 14' high and it opens onto another decent size space, so acoustically it is much larger. But I do everything sitting at my desk, guitars, keys, vox and programming. I guess maybe I like a cozy space? For whatever reason it has been more stimulating for me than my project studio which is like, 14'x 20' or so. Never had a creative vibe and I'm never down there when inspiration strikes. These days I can make a cup of coffee and start a new jam in my PJs before anyone is even up. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 25, 2022 20:58:33 GMT -6
If all you're doing is acoustic and vocals, I think it's doable in that small of a space. Only have my own two rooms I've built as reference, but I wouldn't sheetrock anything but the ceiling and try to create some variations in it, like sloping up/down, etc. Fill the framed walls with Roxul, frame out the corners so you can get a layer of pink fluffy behind there with Roxul in front, burlap or Guilford over everything and do wood slats around the whole room. Lots of info out there if you want to vary the size and spacing to address frequencies using slats.
I'm no expert at all, but if you've gotta have a space and you're only doing live vocals and acoustic, that seems doable. If the building can sit off of the ground, some of the bass will bleed through the floor which is good.
If you're trying to also mix full song type stuff, not sure there. But Roxul, fabric, slats and pink fully in the traps behind Roxul (pink has to be deep - no compression of the pink fluffy). At the Roxul stage, the room will be so dead it'll hurt your ears. Start adding slats and that'll start telling you what's up. Also, if you intend to mix, build some diffusers for the wall opposite the monitors.
Just another perspective.
Edit: Chimed in also because for my 9-5 I made a stand-up desk in front of the backwall diffusion using a keyboard stand, 1/2" piece of plywood, two Sonos shipping boxes, another 1/2" piece of plywood that's 14" x 36" and it's great. Work all day at it, can take down quickly to mix.
The electrical is a good point though as well. Not going to be cheap to run a line or a subpanel out to a shed.
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Post by wiz on Mar 25, 2022 21:35:15 GMT -6
I had a room that was 11ft by 11ft by 8ft high... I did some killer work in it.. It had its limitations.
I used two bags of acoustic insulation in the four corners of the room stacked ontop of each other floor to ceiling (8bags total) left them in the plastic and covered them with black cloth... and then I had acoustic foam at all the first reflection points to the side, above and the back. The front of the room was a big window which I left.
Apart from it being small, it worked fine. And that was in the days before sonarworks and sound ID etc
you can make it work and sound ok... but it will be very dry and you will close mic everything and add artificial ambience
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jmoose on Mar 25, 2022 23:44:24 GMT -6
This is a historic district?! Holy guacamole
It doesn't matter if the building is 8x10 or 80x100... feet vs inches
Before anything else you need to be 110% positive you can get a CO for the space.
Certificate of Occupancy. Based on what's laid out here I have doubts.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 26, 2022 4:54:03 GMT -6
I have been over to Matt’s ( Bat Lanyard ‘s) place and with some thought, you definitely can make a small area work. His room is awesome and “feels” bigger than it is. Alot of that has to do with how well he planned out where everything needs to be. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 26, 2022 8:43:52 GMT -6
I’d build it out as a shed. Put electric and lights in, tell the town it’s a work shop. You’ll need a frame and electrical inspection to make certain you are to code, but that’s about it. They are mostly interested in knowing you aren’t going to make a “livable space” IE plumbing with a bathroom and sink. They don’t want you making a rentable space on the property.
BUT
if you’re making a shed to paint in, meditate in, store tools, do small woodwork projects, I can’t really see it being a problem.
Where you most certainly will run into problems is with any nosey neighbor that has a chip on their shoulder. So the real question is....
How well do you know your neighbors and how certain are you they won’t complain about your shed?
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2022 9:15:10 GMT -6
This is a historic district?! Holy guacamole It doesn't matter if the building is 8x10 or 80x100... feet vs inches Before anything else you need to be 110% positive you can get a CO for the space. Certificate of Occupancy. Based on what's laid out here I have doubts. It’s maybe a bit less intense than that, not every home here is part of it; lots of craftsmans and little stucco joints too. But, there are rules, like we have to use real redwood siding even though you paint over it anyway. But, the out building wouldn’t be covered by that, you technically don’t need a permit at 10’x12’. We were going to pull one anyway. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2022 9:20:48 GMT -6
I’d build it out as a shed. Put electric and lights in, tell the town it’s a work shop. You’ll need a frame and electrical inspection to make certain you are to code, but that’s about it. They are mostly interested in knowing you aren’t going to make a “livable space” IE plumbing with a bathroom and sink. They don’t want you making a rentable space on the property. BUT if you’re making a shed to paint in, meditate in, store tools, do small woodwork projects, I can’t really see it being a problem. Where you most certainly will run into problems is with any nosey neighbor that has a chip on their shoulder. So the real question is.... How well do you know your neighbors and how certain are you they won’t complain about your shed? That’s a good question. This is my family home, I grew up here and know most of my neighbors. Moved back after we started a family. But, there is this one guy… I’d probably need to go and kiss the ring, so to speak. |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 26, 2022 12:38:38 GMT -6
That doesn't make any sense. If you have permits and apply for a CO you don't need permission from neighbors... they can't do squat about it.
You need to put in the time to sort out what your local building codes are and if this is allowed. I've worked as a professional carpenter in historic districts & million dollar homes... long ago in a galaxy far away but I have experience with this kinda thing.
The main rub is electric. And one way or another the town is gonna find out what your doing.
Most places in the 48 states won't care if you drop a 10x12 shed on your property... run an extension cord so you have a light, maybe a table saw and keep your lawnmower out there. Perfectly legal.
What your proposing... with the gear, electric baseboard / split ductless & more serious lighting? Where is that power coming from? Probably not the house.
Most likely you'll need a dedicated panel which falls under NEMA code & specifies its location... and the feed for that panel with 80-100 amp service is probably coming from the road. Going to be either overhead or we're digging a trench from the main line that feeds the block.
At that point we've involved the power company who'll run the line out to the shed... even dig up the yard so it can be buried and guess what? The town's going to need permits and ask a whole lotta questions.
Around here? If you built a shed office like that video without permits? They'd probably make you tear it down. Or at least get some really, really hefty fines after the fact.
It doesn't matter how big the building is its what your doing with it. New construction has hurdles. Much easier to renovate an existing structure.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2022 14:50:49 GMT -6
That doesn't make any sense. If you have permits and apply for a CO you don't need permission from neighbors... they can't do squat about it. You need to put in the time to sort out what your local building codes are and if this is allowed. I've worked as a professional carpenter in historic districts & million dollar homes... long ago in a galaxy far away but I have experience with this kinda thing. The main rub is electric. And one way or another the town is gonna find out what your doing. Most places in the 48 states won't care if you drop a 10x12 shed on your property... run an extension cord so you have a light, maybe a table saw and keep your lawnmower out there. Perfectly legal. What your proposing... with the gear, electric baseboard / split ductless & more serious lighting? Where is that power coming from? Probably not the house. Most likely you'll need a dedicated panel which falls under NEMA code & specifies its location... and the feed for that panel with 80-100 amp service is probably coming from the road. Going to be either overhead or we're digging a trench from the main line that feeds the block. At that point we've involved the power company who'll run the line out to the shed... even dig up the yard so it can be buried and guess what? The town's going to need permits and ask a whole lotta questions. Around here? If you built a shed office like that video without permits? They'd probably make you tear it down. Or at least get some really, really hefty fines after the fact. It doesn't matter how big the building is its what your doing with it. New construction has hurdles. Much easier to renovate an existing structure. Like I said, the shed company will pull permits, I need to ask them about electrical and CO. |
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2022 19:05:09 GMT -6
I dunno. Leaving acoustic treatment aside for a second... I have serious doubts about how workable & comfortable that sort of thing would be long term. What's the cost for a "shed" like that? Raw building on a slab. 10x12 in a shed I think by the time you added basic insulation & finish... then trapping & panels etc... not to mention any HVAC considerations etc your basically in a shoe box. Those walls are going to close in fast... By the time everything gets piled in from desk to speakers to guitars & mic cabinet etc in I'd be very afraid of winding up with something like a 7x9 workable space. Maybe less. Basically a walk in closet. Total sweat box. Forget about workable acoustics unless "not too shitty" is the goal? But what's the total investment here? Are we talking $5k or $20k? More? Permits? Keeping in mind running electric etc? Moose makes a great point, I would seriously take a long hard look at how much you gain with an investment in a larger building. Acoustic treatment and general “stuff” are all great at eating up floor space, so spend some time trying to work in a mocked up space to see if it will work for you. |
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Post by notneeson on Apr 4, 2022 22:47:13 GMT -6
I don’t think you guys understand west coast real estate, lol.
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Post by ragan on Apr 5, 2022 0:27:31 GMT -6
I say go for it. I've been making music in a small room for 10 years. It's crowded and imperfect but it's what I got and it's heaven on earth to me just to have a room.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 5, 2022 3:15:52 GMT -6
Jut a suggestion about once you have the basic room built, maybe do some measurements to you have a baseline for sound characteristics, have you punched those dimensions into a room mode calculator; just in case ?
Martin just showed me a video from the head honcho at Sweetwater ,his home room set up and he has a desk that opens and closes to he can pull out his recording gear on a sliding drawer and close it all up so its a regular desk: pretty cool,
Am thinking what can you do during load in to create more space and have your gear in there too.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 5, 2022 11:22:30 GMT -6
Jut a suggestion about once you have the basic room built, maybe do some measurements to you have a baseline for sound characteristics, have you punched those dimensions into a room mode calculator; just in case ? Martin just showed me a video from the head honcho at Sweetwater ,his home room set up and he has a desk that opens and closes to he can pull out his recording gear on a sliding drawer and close it all up so its a regular desk: pretty cool, Am thinking what can you do during load in to create more space and have your gear in there too. No, I need to do that. Thanks for the recommendation. That said, I am reconsidering how I could possibly pull off a room in the attic after sitting with the feedback here. That approach has deeper financial implications and there’s a lot to consider. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 5, 2022 11:27:04 GMT -6
Measure twice, cut roof joists: never !  |
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Post by jmoose on Apr 5, 2022 15:27:59 GMT -6
I don’t think you guys understand west coast real estate, lol. Certainly on par with NYC area real estate which I've been keeping tabs on for a few years. Coming off 2019 I had plans to move & buy a building... with things as they are now I'm holding tight. Acoustics aside, like I said main rubs I think are overall cost vs footprint and if the town's historic district would allow this at all. I could tell several amusing stories about working construction jobs in historic districts. They usually don't care what happens inside the house... but outside?! And its always incredibly stupid things. One of my favorites with a kitchen remodel? No dumpsters allowed on property. Hand carry all the trash. Daily. That's one of the reasons you can't find a contractor... all my friends in the trades are booked at least a year out. They can pick & choose jobs... "historic district" is going to scare some away. If I had the option to build out an attic or garage, modify anything in the house including removing load bearing walls I'd go that route. Which leads to the financial part of it... if you have good credit there are games & tricks that can be played with things like a remodel vs putting a small building on the property. In my case, buying a property its not hard to get an extra $50-100k over the mortgage for "improvements" - like we're gonna remodel the kitchen and address some other things... like putting most of that into a studio build out. |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Apr 5, 2022 18:55:00 GMT -6
Did I miss why you have to keep it this size footprint? Zoning/code?
If not, maybe spend a touch more for a space that won't feel as cramped in two years.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 5, 2022 19:12:32 GMT -6
Did I miss why you have to keep it this size footprint? Zoning/code? If not, maybe spend a touch more for a space that won't feel as cramped in two years. It’s mostly because of where I have space in my yard for an outbuilding. So it’s either 10x12 shed of make the attic work. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Apr 6, 2022 23:02:44 GMT -6
I say go for it. I've been making music in a small room for 10 years. It's crowded and imperfect but it's what I got and it's heaven on earth to me just to have a room. That... is the guts of what it's all about. Go for it. |
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Post by Ward on Apr 7, 2022 7:03:44 GMT -6
Jut a suggestion about once you have the basic room built, maybe do some measurements to you have a baseline for sound characteristics, have you punched those dimensions into a room mode calculator; just in case ? Martin just showed me a video from the head honcho at Sweetwater ,his home room set up and he has a desk that opens and closes to he can pull out his recording gear on a sliding drawer and close it all up so its a regular desk: pretty cool, Am thinking what can you do during load in to create more space and have your gear in there too. No, I need to do that. Thanks for the recommendation. That said, I am reconsidering how I could possibly pull off a room in the attic after sitting with the feedback here. That approach has deeper financial implications and there’s a lot to consider. Would you consider stripping down to the trusses, then lifting the entire roof (in pieces of course) and giving yourself essentially another story? |
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Post by Ned Ward on Apr 7, 2022 8:53:16 GMT -6
If you do go pre-built, work with them to add insulation under the floor before they put it on the slab - otherwise working on a cold bouncy shed floor in N. CA won't be fun.
10x12 is a small work space, but CA real estate is crazy. I have friends with he and she sheds and they make it work in San Jose and other parts up north.
Besides permits, think of the things that will help go from shed to usable space - vapor barrier, insulation, etc.
With the cost, are you and a friend or two handy? framing a shed isn't rocket science, and you'd be able to build it the way you want for less. If you're not handy, disregard.
For the dead room - I could see bass traps that are fabric on one side, and thin 1/4" plywood on the other so you could rotate as needed.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 7, 2022 16:52:52 GMT -6
Regarding Ward’s question, I don’t think they’d let me raise the roof. What you do see with these older homes is people lifting the entire house up another 6 feet or so to add a real basement. We should have down that in the 1990s when we redid the foundation.
And Ned Ward, I hear you on insulating the floor. I’m somewhat handy, but it would be a stretch. I also don’t have much time and can’t really see myself pulling off a custom build, I don’t have the stamina for that and everything else I’ve go going on.
The thing about the attic is the work space has to be centered under the apex of the roof, so you have it sloping down around you making the space feel a bit enclosed. Might work though.
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Post by Ned Ward on Apr 8, 2022 8:19:05 GMT -6
Quick thought - if your garage has space, move things around to simulate the actual space you'll have in your 10x12 shed to see if it can work ergonomically. You may decide that desk against the wall opens things up significantly and is worth the tradeoff acoustically. I've seen people mock this up with painters tape or even cardboard to get the feel of the space.
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