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Post by RealNoob on Mar 16, 2022 19:18:06 GMT -6
So, I have had Focal Shape 65s for a bit and did a recent album with them. With Sonarworks, there wasn't much adjustment, and they translated really well. I felt like the detail was good as well. I just got a set of Generic 8330 A's and the SAM system and set them up tonight. Based on reports form everyone, I expected them to be bright and zingy. Before the adjustment, they seemed a bit mid heavy and after adjustment seem warm and balanced, more so than the Focal's. I am surprised they seem as warm as they do.
Any other experiences or thoughts ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 19:31:20 GMT -6
The shapes are good but sound underwater like the CMS. The focal aluminum-magnesium alloy tweeters are dark despite being metal
Genelecs are not underwater
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 16, 2022 19:37:50 GMT -6
I'm an avid Genelec user and I have never thought the 8xxxx series to be bright. The older 1031's can be for sure. But even then the built in tilt filter was enough to tame that.
Focals IMO can be very bright.
That said, I love Genelecs. Hope you enjoy them! SAM is great too only gets better all the time.
I currently mix on 8351a's at work and have 8240b's at home with a sub.
New mastering room is getting 8351b's with W371s.
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 16, 2022 20:33:02 GMT -6
I'm an avid Genelec user and I have never thought the 8xxxx series to be bright. The older 1031's can be for sure. But even then the built in tilt filter was enough to tame that. Focals IMO can be very bright. That said, I love Genelecs. Hope you enjoy them! SAM is great too only gets better all the time. I currently mix on 8351a's at work and have 8240b's at home with a sub. New mastering room is getting 8351b's with W371s. Interesting. That may be the disconnect for me - pulling old comments on the 10 series to the 83 series. Have you tried Sonarworks with Genelec? I'm likely going to try and see which I like. Question: do you know how to push the SAM settings to the speaker? I saw something in manual about dip switches but didn't see any.
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 16, 2022 20:44:43 GMT -6
The shapes are good but sound underwater like the CMS. The focal aluminum-magnesium alloy tweeters are dark despite being metal Genelecs are not underwater Didn't seem that way in my room. I had no complaints until the Genelecs came. None the less, the Shapes did really well open the last album.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 16, 2022 23:47:40 GMT -6
I'm an avid Genelec user and I have never thought the 8xxxx series to be bright. The older 1031's can be for sure. But even then the built in tilt filter was enough to tame that. Focals IMO can be very bright. That said, I love Genelecs. Hope you enjoy them! SAM is great too only gets better all the time. I currently mix on 8351a's at work and have 8240b's at home with a sub. New mastering room is getting 8351b's with W371s. Interesting. That may be the disconnect for me - pulling old comments on the 10 series to the 83 series. Have you tried Sonarworks with Genelec? I'm likely going to try and see which I like. Question: do you know how to push the SAM settings to the speaker? I saw something in manual about dip switches but didn't see any. Under Group menu at the bottom there is "Store Group Settings". The dip switchs are on the back on the monitors and up under where the connectors are. Bit tricky to see and get to. But kind of intentional. The dip switch just allows you to bypass the SAM settings if you want to manually. It's not easy enough to like A/B it. If you want to do that then using GLM software and the bypass button is best for that. I've only done that when we didn't keep the GLM SAM setup and hooked in full time and an engineer requested it be turned off. I haven't used Sonar works. Will be curious to hear what you think in terms of comparing them. One then that has kept me from it is reading about an engineer at Genelec talking about how Sonar works does boots and cuts which is dangerous for the amps in the speakers as you can over drive the amps/drivers by suddenly adding +3-8dB to something the speakers can't really reproduce in the first place. GLM SAM only does cuts for this reason. Plus I've always been super happy with the results of the GLM calibration anyways so never had a good reason to actually pay for the software. So give it a try! I've also been curious if they play together nicely at all, as in combining them maybe helps? But would really want to see what each is doing in case they were "undoing" each others work in places, which is possible. Reminds me...i should get the newest version of GLM actually.
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Post by askomiko on Mar 17, 2022 2:04:02 GMT -6
The SAM is worth its weight in gold*. You can tune up the sound for your room and your preferences. I set mine slightly dark on purpose, to offset the mistake that I gravitate towards too dark mixes. Try the "both speakers use the same correction", some vouch that it keeps the stereo image more coherent since both speakers are EQd the same. You can set up and fine tune different sets of corrections (duplicate group) and flip back and forth them, then decide which set you want to keep and store that into the speakers, and disconnect the GLM box. Then it's standalone. I use 1032C with 7360 sub for music stuff and have the 8330 for living room TV, both benefit from the dsp.
*How much does a software weigh?
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 17, 2022 9:40:14 GMT -6
The SAM is worth its weight in gold*. You can tune up the sound for your room and your preferences. I set mine slightly dark on purpose, to offset the mistake that I gravitate towards too dark mixes. Try the "both speakers use the same correction", some vouch that it keeps the stereo image more coherent since both speakers are EQd the same. You can set up and fine tune different sets of corrections (duplicate group) and flip back and forth them, then decide which set you want to keep and store that into the speakers, and disconnect the GLM box. Then it's standalone. I use 1032C with 7360 sub for music stuff and have the 8330 for living room TV, both benefit from the dsp. *How much does a software weigh? You raise a very good point. I too tend to mix dark. Great idea. The Genelecs don't seem as bright and open as the Focals. Maybe that will be a good thing for contrast and to address the issue you raised (in my mixes).
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 17, 2022 9:48:59 GMT -6
Interesting. That may be the disconnect for me - pulling old comments on the 10 series to the 83 series. Have you tried Sonarworks with Genelec? I'm likely going to try and see which I like. Question: do you know how to push the SAM settings to the speaker? I saw something in manual about dip switches but didn't see any. Under Group menu at the bottom there is "Store Group Settings". The dip switchs are on the back on the monitors and up under where the connectors are. Bit tricky to see and get to. But kind of intentional. The dip switch just allows you to bypass the SAM settings if you want to manually. It's not easy enough to like A/B it. If you want to do that then using GLM software and the bypass button is best for that. I've only done that when we didn't keep the GLM SAM setup and hooked in full time and an engineer requested it be turned off. I haven't used Sonar works. Will be curious to hear what you think in terms of comparing them. One then that has kept me from it is reading about an engineer at Genelec talking about how Sonar works does boots and cuts which is dangerous for the amps in the speakers as you can over drive the amps/drivers by suddenly adding +3-8dB to something the speakers can't really reproduce in the first place. GLM SAM only does cuts for this reason. Plus I've always been super happy with the results of the GLM calibration anyways so never had a good reason to actually pay for the software. So give it a try! I've also been curious if they play together nicely at all, as in combining them maybe helps? But would really want to see what each is doing in case they were "undoing" each others work in places, which is possible. Reminds me...i should get the newest version of GLM actually. Thanks. I will let you know what happens.
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 20, 2022 17:34:21 GMT -6
Well, I am driving myself nuts. Genelec 8330A's
- Surprised me with the warm top end after GLM. Seems akin to Dynaudio (I've heard) and what I have read about Quested.
- Maintain detail with GLM despite the noticeable less air compared to the Focal Shape 65s.
- Sound weird and bright with Sonarworks.
- Even when I EQ'd out (in Sonarworks) some of the added high end, they still didn't sound right in the mids and top, compared to GLM. They got more air but also got harsh.
- Much better on GLM and... I could take that anywhere - speakers and GLM kit - that is cool
Focal Shape 65's
- Last album I mixed went well - a different Sonarworks calibration (lost it in MPB swap out).
- Compared to the Genelec, seem bright and at times, hard in the top with sizzle a lot of air
- Sonarworks doesn't sound right on these now.
Before getting the Genneys, I had no complaints with the Focal's - lol. Now, flipping back and forth, neither seem right (Genneys sound slightly boxy, Focal's are sharp). However, I seem to settle in better with the Genneys if I stay on them, not as easily now with the Focal's. I'm sure the flip-flopping contributes to my problem. On thing is certain. I REALLY MISS the PSI A-21Ms - oh my God. I guess for now, I can push the GLM cal into the speakers and only use Sonarworks with the Focal's and if a mix sounds fine on both, I'm golden. I am used to just having a main set and the Avantones. This could be a good thing but seems very mentally cluttered. I'm sure some of you guys have been here, any consoling thoughts? lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 7:33:47 GMT -6
Well, I am driving myself nuts. On thing is certain. I REALLY MISS the PSI A-21Ms - oh my God. I guess for now, I can push the GLM cal into the speakers and only use Sonarworks with the Focal's and if a mix sounds fine on both, I'm golden. I am used to just having a main set and the Avantones. This could be a good thing but seems very mentally cluttered. I'm sure some of you guys have been here, any consoling thoughts? lol Nope no consoling thoughts, I'm going to be the "elitist" here because monitors and treatment are the one place you don't wanna cheep out. If you've got any decent comps / mic's sell them and get some better monitors. The sets you're talking about are umm.. Not all that great. Someone mentioned the 8351's which are nearly $4K a speaker, they do sound amazing but they're also damn expensive.. The reason I bang on about the Dyn LYD-48's is they're the only "cheap" monitor that I've come across (out of 30 pairs) that had any semblance of frequency balance, decent phantom centre, clarity and enough range combined to be useful. I've heard better for sure but it's a good starting point unless you despise your credit card. In the lower end it's generally just a smorgasbord of compromise, cheap coax's usually have the sound stage / clarity but not the accuracy. Cheap 2 / 3 ways are generally just unintelligible mush beaten by a set of 90's hi-fi speakers. It might sound a bit dramatic but once I'd got into the likes of Event Opals, PSI, ATC, Geithain etc. I wouldn't go near a low end "studio monitor" again. This is coming from someone who'd happily use an ART pre-amp and a $400.00 ISK mic irrelevant of whether or not I have better.
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 21, 2022 12:17:59 GMT -6
Well, I am driving myself nuts. On thing is certain. I REALLY MISS the PSI A-21Ms - oh my God. I guess for now, I can push the GLM cal into the speakers and only use Sonarworks with the Focal's and if a mix sounds fine on both, I'm golden. I am used to just having a main set and the Avantones. This could be a good thing but seems very mentally cluttered. I'm sure some of you guys have been here, any consoling thoughts? lol Nope no consoling thoughts, I'm going to be the "elitist" here because monitors and treatment are the one place you don't wanna cheep out. If you've got any decent comps / mic's sell them and get some better monitors. The sets you're talking about are umm.. Not all that great. Someone mentioned the 8351's which are nearly $4K a speaker, they do sound amazing but they're also damn expensive.. The reason I bang on about the Dyn LYD-48's is they're the only "cheap" monitor that I've come across (out of 30 pairs) that had any semblance of frequency balance, decent phantom centre, clarity and enough range combined to be useful. I've heard better for sure but it's a good starting point unless you despise your credit card. In the lower end it's generally just a smorgasbord of compromise, cheap coax's usually have the sound stage / clarity but not the accuracy. Cheap 2 / 3 ways are generally just unintelligible mush beaten by a set of 90's hi-fi speakers. It might sound a bit dramatic but once I'd got into the likes of Event Opals, PSI, ATC, Geithain etc. I wouldn't go near a low end "studio monitor" again. This is coming from someone who'd happily use an ART pre-amp and a $400.00 ISK mic irrelevant of whether or not I have better. Hey thanks for the honesty! I do appreciate it. Had already been quietly thinking about selling both and grabbing a better single pair. I always keep my boxes.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 21, 2022 12:55:39 GMT -6
I mean, I would not call the 8330's "meh" monitors. Tons and tons of people out there mixing full time on them or similar Genelecs with great success. That said, jumping up in size would make for a better investment. Like to an 8340 or 8350. Plus adding a sub.
But, if the shoe doesn't fit then find a better one. At some point with something like monitors(or headphones) it pays to just stick with them and learn them. I can't even imagine going through 30 sets of monitors. That's a huge waste of time and money IMO. Especially for lower end monitors.
I will say your probably the first person I've seen call Genelecs too "warm" haha I dont' have a ton of experience with Dynaudio's but have had them next to Genelecs and did not like them compared to the Genelecs. Was a long time ago though.
Either way, selling both to get into a higher end/bigger monitor is not a bad idea. But think you'll need to jump up into the 8341 price tag area to really make it worth it. Certainly I'd be looking for something with 6-8'' drivers not 3-5'' ones.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 21, 2022 14:21:03 GMT -6
I definitely prefer having a main, trusted, extremely familiar monitoring pair over options.
I also think the law of diminishing returns applies, there’s a price/performance intersection that needs to scale to your business/side hustle/hobby as the case may be.
In the studio for hire world, I have grown to appreciate walking into a control room and seeing a pair of NS10s: at least I know what they are supposed to sound like. Super obscure high end stuff, not so much.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 22:40:20 GMT -6
I mean, I would not call the 8330's "meh" monitors. Tons and tons of people out there mixing full time on them or similar Genelecs with great success. That said, jumping up in size would make for a better investment. Like to an 8340 or 8350. Plus adding a sub. But, if the shoe doesn't fit then find a better one. At some point with something like monitors(or headphones) it pays to just stick with them and learn them. I can't even imagine going through 30 sets of monitors. That's a huge waste of time and money IMO. Especially for lower end monitors. I will say your probably the first person I've seen call Genelecs too "warm" haha I dont' have a ton of experience with Dynaudio's but have had them next to Genelecs and did not like them compared to the Genelecs. Was a long time ago though. Either way, selling both to get into a higher end/bigger monitor is not a bad idea. But think you'll need to jump up into the 8341 price tag area to really make it worth it. Certainly I'd be looking for something with 6-8'' drivers not 3-5'' ones. You're mixing up two people's posts (I'm not the OP) and making a lot of assumptions here. Originally I bought some Focal CMS 65's, didn't like the Focal's so I replaced them with some Sonodyne's which I also didn't like. My studio was mid renovation at that point so I had time to go out and listen to as many pairs as possible, order demo units or loaners so I only actually bought 2 sets. After that exercise IMO it's a waste of time and money not to audition a vast array and figure out what works for you.. After all it's a small blip in the 5, 10, 15+ years someone will probably keep them, constantly swapping every couple of years is again IMO a waste of time / money. Also who said they were all cheap? Some that I demo'd cost $15K.. (You probably meant the OP there but it's hard to tell). I could care less about what's "popular" because end of the day they need to work for me in my studio. The A7X's are / were "popular" but I've never liked them, the Genelec 80XX's were the de facto metal mixing standard and initially I could never get those to translate properly. Yes I "learned" to adjust to their flaws but I'd rather have something I don't constantly fight against. That being said Dynaudio and Genelec have come a long way over the years, there's a recessed mid stigma with Dyn's but the current LYD crop I've encounters has none of that. Also the Genelec 83XX series aren't the same overly flattering yet muddy sounding attempts as their older versions.. I like the 83XX's with GLM but within their range there's a lot of differences and personally I wouldn't use the 8330's as mains, they're too bass shy for a start. Yes one can get a sub but I do tend to avoid if possible.. Anyway throughout my travels this is what I've personally learned.. I'm not fond of 2-way speakers, they seem to lack the imaging and / or spacial depth of a decent 3-way or coax. I've never heard the ATC SCM20A's or Amphion's for example so I can't state this universally, some maybe awesome but I tend to go a certain direction. Next I prefer a balance between natural and clinical, flat and / or "lively", meaning the Geithains, LYD 48's and a few others didn't sound alien compared to various other sources (like my Beyer Headphones, car stereo, Hi-Fi etc.) so if it works on those it tended to work on a vast array of audio equipment. Finally this all personal and if the op wasn't frittering I wouldn't say anything..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 22:59:09 GMT -6
Hey thanks for the honesty! I do appreciate it. Had already been quietly thinking about selling both and grabbing a better single pair. I always keep my boxes. No probs, I'm looking for a change as well.. Had the Dyn 48's since they were released back in 2017 and now with the new setup it feels like some new monitors would be the icing. I'm torn between the Genelec 8341AM's (3-way Coax model) and the Geithain RL940's, Geithain is used a lot in broadcast and I've had the RL906's for a while so I know I'll probably like them. You just get more bang for your buck with Genelec, the 8341's are $6K whereas the Geithain's are $7.6K.. Both spec out about the same so?!
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2022 16:11:27 GMT -6
I mean, I would not call the 8330's "meh" monitors. Tons and tons of people out there mixing full time on them or similar Genelecs with great success. That said, jumping up in size would make for a better investment. Like to an 8340 or 8350. Plus adding a sub. But, if the shoe doesn't fit then find a better one. At some point with something like monitors(or headphones) it pays to just stick with them and learn them. I can't even imagine going through 30 sets of monitors. That's a huge waste of time and money IMO. Especially for lower end monitors. I will say your probably the first person I've seen call Genelecs too "warm" haha I dont' have a ton of experience with Dynaudio's but have had them next to Genelecs and did not like them compared to the Genelecs. Was a long time ago though. Either way, selling both to get into a higher end/bigger monitor is not a bad idea. But think you'll need to jump up into the 8341 price tag area to really make it worth it. Certainly I'd be looking for something with 6-8'' drivers not 3-5'' ones. You're mixing up two people's posts (I'm not the OP) and making a lot of assumptions here. Originally I bought some Focal CMS 65's, didn't like the Focal's so I replaced them with some Sonodyne's which I also didn't like. My studio was mid renovation at that point so I had time to go out and listen to as many pairs as possible, order demo units or loaners so I only actually bought 2 sets. After that exercise IMO it's a waste of time and money not to audition a vast array and figure out what works for you.. After all it's a small blip in the 5, 10, 15+ years someone will probably keep them, constantly swapping every couple of years is again IMO a waste of time / money. Also who said they were all cheap? Some that I demo'd cost $15K.. (You probably meant the OP there but it's hard to tell). I could care less about what's "popular" because end of the day they need to work for me in my studio. The A7X's are / were "popular" but I've never liked them, the Genelec 80XX's were the de facto metal mixing standard and initially I could never get those to translate properly. Yes I "learned" to adjust to their flaws but I'd rather have something I don't constantly fight against. That being said Dynaudio and Genelec have come a long way over the years, there's a recessed mid stigma with Dyn's but the current LYD crop I've encounters has none of that. Also the Genelec 83XX series aren't the same overly flattering yet muddy sounding attempts as their older versions.. I like the 83XX's with GLM but within their range there's a lot of differences and personally I wouldn't use the 8330's as mains, they're too bass shy for a start. Yes one can get a sub but I do tend to avoid if possible.. Anyway throughout my travels this is what I've personally learned.. I'm not fond of 2-way speakers, they seem to lack the imaging and / or spacial depth of a decent 3-way or coax. I've never heard the ATC SCM20A's or Amphion's for example so I can't state this universally, some maybe awesome but I tend to go a certain direction. Next I prefer a balance between natural and clinical, flat and / or "lively", meaning the Geithains, LYD 48's and a few others didn't sound alien compared to various other sources (like my Beyer Headphones, car stereo, Hi-Fi etc.) so if it works on those it tended to work on a vast array of audio equipment. Finally this all personal and if the op wasn't frittering I wouldn't say anything.. The older larger Dynaudio’s were a bit down in the mids, but they had that Esotar mid dome that seams to have almost disappeared from the pro line. From what I remember of the standard OEM version part of why it always seamed down a dB or 2 is because it was, it had some interesting peaks around where it was comfortable to cross to the Esotar tweeter or those obnoxious little peaks would take your head off. The Automotive version was bright has hell on axis but It was big enough it was always mounted off axis.
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Post by RealNoob on Dec 17, 2022 15:27:52 GMT -6
OK, I have posted about the 8330s with GLM and the LYD48s in various threads. Circling back here to be less convoluted in the history and reporting.
I worked with support at Genelec as the boxes seemed pinched in the 1-3K range and then rolled off too much. They were lacking the common knowledge "Genelec Brightness". I posted on boards and never figured anything out so I connected support for my first time. They have been really good to work with. Being bale to send pics and grade reports has been very helpful. I still am waiting for one more reply about a couple of resistant areas but already, things are much better.
Due to placement challenges, I recently had them on their sides which caused severe comb filtering, exacerbated by desk reflections. After reorienting and moving yet again (still pretty close) they really good good. The open top is there and the Genelec brightness.
They sound so much better than before that they now highlighted tubbiness in the LYD48s - ugh. I will have to try sonarworks with them again. The Genelecs sound like they are in the PSI flavor territory - very clean at most frequencies and clearer than the Dynaudios. The only issue is a little bit of sibilance enhancing and are slightly fatiguing at higher volumes but I don't care for them cranked anyway as when pushed, they begin to sound crowded.
So, really glad I didn't ditch them as they are doing well and can provide the mobile mixing ability.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 18, 2022 4:03:10 GMT -6
Monitors are so personal, the only thing that matters, is that they work for you.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 18, 2022 4:52:02 GMT -6
I was listening to the Genesis song Tonight, Tonight, Tonight on my ATC 25’s for the first time and in the last transition I suddenly heard Phil Collins sustained singing note clashes with the backing track! I’ve literally heard the song dozens of times and never noticed (it must be subtle) but flippin glaring on the 25’s. I thought yep, that’s the sign of a quality studio monitor. I then set about listening to a few Sting solo albums and found a couple of clashing bass notes - oops
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