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Post by seawell on Mar 2, 2022 1:18:14 GMT -6
The "Hallelujah" shootout has some very soft playing and singing and the differences, though observable, are less prominent. The "Jackson" and "Very Good Advice" samples with more energy start to reveal the deficiencies in the copy mics. They are much more sibilant and harsh. I too am of the opinion that addressing a vocal with some mics hanging upside down and others right-side up results in different timbres. That opens up more questions about how the mics tones relate to each other. And he's right that artists respond differently to mics. I also agree with him regarding budget. I remember the days when I had to make payments for a year on a Rode K2 - if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. However, Neumann mics are always better investments when you consider resale value. (But c'mon! Let's just be honest. That vintage U87 absolutely ruins the rest of em! Lemme know when you're ready to sell it, seawell!) Thanks for checking it out Dan! I also provided the Jackson Square files and the acoustic guitar files for Very Good Advice all blind here on RGO before the reveal and an awful lot, if not the majority of people were picking the Warm Audio mic. This was a fun/interesting experiment for sure. I'm not so sure any mic ruined the rest of them, I can see anyone preferring almost any 1 of the 5 for different reasons. I'd be glad to sell the vintage 87 to you, but it's already gone unfortunately! So is the AI. I kept all the clones for what it's worth. Like I told someone else though, me saving money here just means I'll blow it on something more expensive down the road like a vintage 67 or 47 LOL. |
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Post by reddirt on Mar 2, 2022 3:21:18 GMT -6
I've said it often but you need to push a mic to be sure of it's abilities and / or deficiencies; in the U67 / Warm shoot out they were impressively similar but we never heard them used 'in anger' so there's no way of truly knowing based on that sort of vid.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 2, 2022 8:42:14 GMT -6
I was at Rudy's Music in Soho/Manhattan last week. It's the high end guitar shop here. I was helping a friend pick his first decent guitar. An old friend is in charge of the Martin section. I got to play 4 or 5 Martin's that sounded wonderful. Then I tried the shade top D-41, and my playing changed instantly, I played with more dynamics naturally. Playing softly, it still rang out with a gorgeous long sustain. The low level detail gave me a much wider dynamic range. Then when I hit it hard, pitch stayed true, tone remained glorious and balanced.
A truly great mic will do the same thing. It will make you sing better than other mics, and I've found it's usually the low level detail and then the handling of powerful singing. That combination is rare. The Chandler Redd did it, the Neumann U67 I tried did it. Clones almost never do, no matter how good it sounds in general, when you get it home and work with it for a while, you find those subtle shortcomings grow into frustration with the mic.
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Post by seawell on Mar 2, 2022 11:16:11 GMT -6
I was at Rudy's Music in Soho/Manhattan last week. It's the high end guitar shop here. I was helping a friend pick his first decent guitar. An old friend is in charge of the Martin section. I got to play 4 or 5 Martin's that sounded wonderful. Then I tried the shade top D-41, and my playing changed instantly, I played with more dynamics naturally. Playing softly, it still rang out with a gorgeous long sustain. The low level detail gave me a much wider dynamic range. Then when I hit it hard, pitch stayed true, tone remained glorious and balanced. A truly great mic will do the same thing. It will make you sing better than other mics, and I've found it's usually the low level detail and then the handling of powerful singing. That combination is rare. The Chandler Redd did it, the Neumann U67 I tried did it. Clones almost never do, no matter how good it sounds in general, when you get it home and work with it for a while, you find those subtle shortcomings grow into frustration with the mic. I completely agree and to this point the vintage 87 & the BeesNeez were my least favorite to sing into. Warm was my favorite, followed by Serrano & then the AI. |
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Post by nick8801 on Mar 2, 2022 13:07:11 GMT -6
I was at Rudy's Music in Soho/Manhattan last week. It's the high end guitar shop here. I was helping a friend pick his first decent guitar. An old friend is in charge of the Martin section. I got to play 4 or 5 Martin's that sounded wonderful. Then I tried the shade top D-41, and my playing changed instantly, I played with more dynamics naturally. Playing softly, it still rang out with a gorgeous long sustain. The low level detail gave me a much wider dynamic range. Then when I hit it hard, pitch stayed true, tone remained glorious and balanced. A truly great mic will do the same thing. It will make you sing better than other mics, and I've found it's usually the low level detail and then the handling of powerful singing. That combination is rare. The Chandler Redd did it, the Neumann U67 I tried did it. Clones almost never do, no matter how good it sounds in general, when you get it home and work with it for a while, you find those subtle shortcomings grow into frustration with the mic. I completely agree and to this point the vintage 87 & the BeesNeez were my least favorite to sing into. Warm was my favorite, followed by Serrano & then the AI. Wow, so is the Warm gonna be your main 87 mic now? I have the Beesneez, and I'm very happy with it, but I do miss the other patterns for stuff like mid/side recording. |
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Post by seawell on Mar 2, 2022 13:26:06 GMT -6
I completely agree and to this point the vintage 87 & the BeesNeez were my least favorite to sing into. Warm was my favorite, followed by Serrano & then the AI. Wow, so is the Warm gonna be your main 87 mic now? I have the Beesneez, and I'm very happy with it, but I do miss the other patterns for stuff like mid/side recording. Maybe...I'm still going back over all the files and trying to decide the best way forward here. Even though I liked the Warm best singing into it, I don't know how often I'll use it as a vocal mic(I usually go with my Korby KAT system) so I'm more interested in a pair of 87 style mics for instrument recording(amps, acoustics, drum overheads, toms...etc...) The other thought is, these are so much more affordable than Neumanns that I could have a pair of all 3 clones and use them all over the place for different purposes. I honestly expected going into this that the vintage would wipe the floor with the clones and at least to me, that didn't happen. Especially when I posted things as blind files. It has been interesting how many more people have chosen the vintage Neumann in the YouTube comments after the reveal was posted. Not a knock on anyone at all, it's just fascinating to me the psychology of it. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 2, 2022 14:26:53 GMT -6
It depends on what you're looking for. I've used the Warm 47 extensively when tracking vocals for my friend Dusty Wrights last two albums. It works beautifully with his voice. I recommended the Chad Kelly mod and he did that. There's little to criticize, it's rich, handles "esses" well, and has a good vintage style voicing.It's one of the best under 1k mics I've heard. But.. having spent quite a bit of time using it, there's a realism and energy missing when compared to the higher end mics I use.
IME, there's no contest between the Warm and the Chandler Redd or the Soyuz 0-17. What's interesting is Dusty has the really good Lewitt 640 too, which works nicely, but only gets chosen on occasion.
When he's tracking at my place he chooses the Stam SA-67 every time, even though he has a WA-47 and the Lewittt. It's simply in a different league than the Warm, as nice as it is. When he tracks at his place now, he skips the WA47 and uses the Soyuz 0-13 FET SDC.
So, of course all this is opinion and personal compatibility, but it speaks volumes when you have a thing available, but you consistently choose another.
Like I mentioned before, given an overall good quality, I've found that low level detail means everything to getting the most feeling out of a vocal.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Mar 2, 2022 18:34:15 GMT -6
I was at Rudy's Music in Soho/Manhattan last week. It's the high end guitar shop here. I was helping a friend pick his first decent guitar. An old friend is in charge of the Martin section. I got to play 4 or 5 Martin's that sounded wonderful. Then I tried the shade top D-41, and my playing changed instantly, I played with more dynamics naturally. Playing softly, it still rang out with a gorgeous long sustain. The low level detail gave me a much wider dynamic range. Then when I hit it hard, pitch stayed true, tone remained glorious and balanced. A truly great mic will do the same thing. It will make you sing better than other mics, and I've found it's usually the low level detail and then the handling of powerful singing. That combination is rare. The Chandler Redd did it, the Neumann U67 I tried did it. Clones almost never do, no matter how good it sounds in general, when you get it home and work with it for a while, you find those subtle shortcomings grow into frustration with the mic. I completely agree and to this point the vintage 87 & the BeesNeez were my least favorite to sing into. Warm was my favorite, followed by Serrano & then the AI. I think it's really cool how you were able to be honest with how these mics made you feel without being blinded by the magic of the badge on the mic. I noticed that nobody commented on how superior the U87i was when the shootout was still blind. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 2, 2022 19:11:25 GMT -6
I picked it first, and the vintage 87 second  |
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Post by seawell on Mar 2, 2022 20:11:10 GMT -6
I completely agree and to this point the vintage 87 & the BeesNeez were my least favorite to sing into. Warm was my favorite, followed by Serrano & then the AI. I think it's really cool how you were able to be honest with how these mics made you feel without being blinded by the magic of the badge on the mic. I noticed that nobody commented on how superior the U87i was when the shootout was still blind. I really appreciate that! The funny thing is, 99% of the time I've been on the other side of the argument usually favoring the more expensive gear. I have to be honest though and this is one situation where I just don't think the vintage is worth it. Mid way through making this shootout I shifted from asking myself "which one sounds the most like the vintage 87?," to "which one sounds best to me?" It hit me how dumb it would be to keep the most expensive mic if it wasn't the one I liked the most. I think any shootout I do from now on is going to have to be blind to start with. It is very eye opening. |
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Post by craigmorris74 on Mar 2, 2022 20:41:49 GMT -6
The 87 is a good platform for cloning because it's a simple circuit, and none of the parts are unobtainable or unreproducable. Someone like Serrano with a good ear and QC can make a neck of a good product. Something like a 67 or 47 can be another can of worms.
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Post by chessparov on Mar 3, 2022 0:45:31 GMT -6
IMHO UT 47FET or Heiserman Type 19, is another valid path... $1K and under.
I think the 47 FET style, is somewhat underrated.
Chris
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Post by seawell on Mar 3, 2022 1:34:25 GMT -6
IMHO UT 47FET or Heiserman Type 19, is another valid path... $1K and under. I think the 47 FET style, is somewhat underrated. Chris It’s like you read my mind….my next review coming up is the stam SA-47 FET👍🏻 |
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Post by teejay on Mar 3, 2022 8:20:58 GMT -6
IMHO UT 47FET or Heiserman Type 19, is another valid path... $1K and under. I think the 47 FET style, is somewhat underrated. Chris It’s like you read my mind….my next review coming up is the stam SA-47 FET👍🏻 Maybe Chad would be willing to send one of his UT FET47's your way to include. Have heard great things about that one. www.unitedstudiotech.com/Edit: Not that I'm trying to turn your review into a shootout.  |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 3, 2022 8:30:26 GMT -6
It’s like you read my mind….my next review coming up is the stam SA-47 FET👍🏻 Maybe Chad would be willing to send one of his UT FET47's your way to include. Have heard great things about that one. www.unitedstudiotech.com/I'd love to hear a good comparison of those two. Well, those two and the Heiserman. |
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Post by plinker on Mar 3, 2022 10:59:35 GMT -6
...and while we're not talking about 87s anymore ;-}
How about Old 414 vs New 414 vs Austrian Audio vs Lewitt??
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Post by enlav on Mar 3, 2022 12:30:58 GMT -6
...and while we're not talking about 87s anymore ;-} How about Old 414 vs New 414 vs Austrian Audio vs Lewitt?? Oldest 414 vs Older 414 vs Old 414 vs Old-ish 414, vs. Hardly old 414 vs...
/s
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Post by teejay on Mar 3, 2022 13:48:15 GMT -6
How about Old 414 vs New 414 vs Austrian Audio vs Lewitt?? There are several of these comparison vids out there. |
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Post by chessparov on Mar 3, 2022 15:28:26 GMT -6
...and while we're not talking about 87s anymore ;-} How about Old 414 vs New 414 vs Austrian Audio vs Lewitt?? Oldest 414 vs Older 414 vs Old 414 vs Old-ish 414, vs. Hardly old 414 vs...
/s
Funniest post so far!  Chris |
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Post by christopher on Mar 11, 2022 11:17:40 GMT -6
Thanks again Seawell for this!
Recently using a vintage 87 and TLM102 and taking the tracks home, I wondered to myself how much is my own bias? Should I get a TLM? I wanted a blind test.
Then came mixdown. The 87 I had to fight a bit to dial it in for best musicality. Was I choosing the right EQ and compression? Etc. The TLM was a totally different challenge, just fighting and sweating to hopefully be tolerable, and it still has too much sibilance.
That’s why your files and this blind EQ test I did really helped me figure this stuff out. Twisting knobs a bunch of times, like I would in a mix or mastering session reveals so much. And early on it became very clear that the Serrano is right there with the vintage 87. There was a same-ness in how it responded to EQ that really surprised me, especially in the highs. I actually picked Serrano as best overall a couple times, thinking it was the vintage, which shocked me! I originally liked the warm the best, but during EQ session I rated it at the bottom almost every time.
So I got the serrano, and it’s a great vocal mic. I’m still doing tests, will talk more about it in the serrano thread.
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Post by seawell on Mar 11, 2022 13:26:20 GMT -6
Thanks again Seawell for this! Recently using a vintage 87 and TLM102 and taking the tracks home, I wondered to myself how much is my own bias? Should I get a TLM? I wanted a blind test. Then came mixdown. The 87 I had to fight a bit to dial it in for best musicality. Was I choosing the right EQ and compression? Etc. The TLM was a totally different challenge, just fighting and sweating to hopefully be tolerable, and it still has too much sibilance. That’s why your files and this blind EQ test I did really helped me figure this stuff out. Twisting knobs a bunch of times, like I would in a mix or mastering session reveals so much. And early on it became very clear that the Serrano is right there with the vintage 87. There was a same-ness in how it responded to EQ that really surprised me, especially in the highs. I actually picked Serrano as best overall a couple times, thinking it was the vintage, which shocked me! I originally liked the warm the best, but during EQ session I rated it at the bottom almost every time. So I got the serrano, and it’s a great vocal mic. I’m still doing tests, will talk more about it in the serrano thread. You're very welcome and thank you for all the feedback you've given me from it! Hearing how each has responded to EQ in your experimentation is great extension of the overall discussion. I'm so glad to hear you're enjoying your Serrano! |
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Post by christopher on Mar 11, 2022 14:43:45 GMT -6
I totally forgot to complement your voice, I noticed on Hallelujah a couple times I was able to dial in a remarkable pro sound to my ears. It felt very expensive and timeless.
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Post by seawell on Mar 11, 2022 15:30:15 GMT -6
I totally forgot to complement your voice, I noticed on Hallelujah a couple times I was able to dial in a remarkable pro sound to my ears. It felt very expensive and timeless. Ah man, I really appreciate that! 😊 |
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Post by bossanova on Mar 11, 2022 21:17:54 GMT -6
Thanks again Seawell for this! Recently using a vintage 87 and TLM102 and taking the tracks home, I wondered to myself how much is my own bias? Should I get a TLM? I wanted a blind test. Then came mixdown. The 87 I had to fight a bit to dial it in for best musicality. Was I choosing the right EQ and compression? Etc. The TLM was a totally different challenge, just fighting and sweating to hopefully be tolerable, and it still has too much sibilance. That’s why your files and this blind EQ test I did really helped me figure this stuff out. Twisting knobs a bunch of times, like I would in a mix or mastering session reveals so much. And early on it became very clear that the Serrano is right there with the vintage 87. There was a same-ness in how it responded to EQ that really surprised me, especially in the highs. I actually picked Serrano as best overall a couple times, thinking it was the vintage, which shocked me! I originally liked the warm the best, but during EQ session I rated it at the bottom almost every time. So I got the serrano, and it’s a great vocal mic. I’m still doing tests, will talk more about it in the serrano thread. There’s a warm and fuzzy feeling when thinking about how a Serrano might be a future classic. I feel the same way about the potential of my Hydrasynth. |
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Post by livingsounds on Apr 22, 2022 16:54:16 GMT -6
Thanks so much! I think they sounded not close at all.
I consistently liked A the most and was expecting it to be the U87ai it turned out to be. I ranked D as number 2 and thought it was the U87. Congrats to BeezNeez for offering such a great sounding affordable mic. I've got one of Ben's capsule in a U47 clone I built and really love the sound of.
So, I'm finally ordering that U87ai... it's got that top end clarity and midrange punch that's perfect for pop vocals. It sounds bright but right.
The Serrano isn't my cup of tea. Found it to restrained and obviously EQed on top at the same time. Not bad (none of the mics had that cheap condenser sound we all loathe), but nowhere near as full and alive as the Neumann.
The original U87 could probably profit from some maintenance. The Warm I found to be unremarkable.
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