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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 2:05:30 GMT -6
[...] I know most everyone knows this here, but room treatment is even more important than the monitor choice. Unless the monitoring choice is between actual monitors and two tin cans with string. If I had to choose one or the other - I'd pick acoustic treatment. The room would be so flat I could just imagine the mix from there and bounce |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 8, 2022 3:08:53 GMT -6
Tweaking the room will have the effect of letting you hear more of the direct monitor sound so clearer throughout the spectrum.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 3:42:39 GMT -6
Johnkenn,
Check this out, this guy is using the method Eric Valentine used for Barefoot recording's tube traps. A 6-9 foot tube trap comes out to about 100-150$ per. Considering how easy the construction is (you literally just buy the pipe insulation and cover it with fabric nicely, glue two circular plywood pieces top and bottom, done) I think I'm gonna go this route. You can get 8 tube traps done for probably 1 grand, Eric Valentine said they saved his control room at Barefoot - he made his this same way. I don't think I can rationalize spending 5x that on ACS even though it would be nice to have them built like tanks on stands, just too much dough for basically the same thing.
Gonna be calling around to try and source 10 inch diameter owens corning tomorrow.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 8, 2022 8:37:24 GMT -6
Johnkenn, Check this out, this guy is using the method Eric Valentine used for Barefoot recording's tube traps. A 6-9 foot tube trap comes out to about 100-150$ per. Considering how easy the construction is (you literally just buy the pipe insulation and cover it with fabric nicely, glue two circular plywood pieces top and bottom, done) I think I'm gonna go this route. You can get 8 tube traps done for probably 1 grand, Eric Valentine said they saved his control room at Barefoot - he made his this same way. I don't think I can rationalize spending 5x that on ACS even though it would be nice to have them built like tanks on stands, just too much dough for basically the same thing. Gonna be calling around to try and source 10 inch diameter owens corning tomorrow. Any how-to’s on making these? |
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Post by anders on Feb 8, 2022 9:08:48 GMT -6
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 9:50:06 GMT -6
Thanks for that link! I've been looking for a good way to make them to create a temp vocal booth when needed. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 16:49:57 GMT -6
Well.. Just ordered 800 bucks worth of pipe insulation. Enough to make 8 6 feet tube traps. I'm thinking cloth and other materials will be 200$. I think I'll past some wood braces on the bottom or something sturdy it can stand on and be moved around with. Definitely better than 4700 + tax, but now gotta get to work when it gets here!
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Post by plinker on Feb 8, 2022 21:07:00 GMT -6
Congratulations on the DIY, Otis! You can get fabric and other crafty essentials at AC Moore and Jo Ann Fabrics.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 8, 2022 22:19:55 GMT -6
Well.. Just ordered 800 bucks worth of pipe insulation. Enough to make 8 6 feet tube traps. I'm thinking cloth and other materials will be 200$. I think I'll past some wood braces on the bottom or something sturdy it can stand on and be moved around with. Definitely better than 4700 + tax, but now gotta get to work when it gets here! Dude, you’ve got to document this with a play-by-play as you build. I would LOVE to follow along, and I’m sure others would, too. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2022 1:48:10 GMT -6
Too bad he didn’t show measurements but as the material is thin and not a membrane it shouldn’t do much for low bass but it would be interesting to know measurements.
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Post by enlav on Feb 9, 2022 8:54:11 GMT -6
Thanks for that link! I've been looking for a good way to make them to create a temp vocal booth when needed. For a temporary vocal booth - would these specific plans work out well? I'm not sure at what point in the spectrum these traps will start reflecting (due to the plastic film under the material).
(I could be making the mistake in assuming you want broadband treatment; or over-estimating the reflective properties of the finished trap.)
Very interested in everyone's results. Have never worked with tube traps before, and they seem like far less hassle in some ways than the 4" and deeper treatment I've made.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 9, 2022 9:04:28 GMT -6
Thanks for that link! I've been looking for a good way to make them to create a temp vocal booth when needed. For a temporary vocal booth - would these specific plans work out well? I'm not sure at what point in the spectrum these traps will start reflecting (due to the plastic film under the material).
(I could be making the mistake in assuming you want broadband treatment; or over-estimating the reflective properties of the finished trap.)
Very interested in everyone's results. Have never worked with tube traps before, and they seem like far less hassle in some ways than the 4" and deeper treatment I've made.
Check out the examples on the ASC website and such. Supposed to work quite well if the singer's surrounded. |
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Post by enlav on Feb 9, 2022 9:25:35 GMT -6
Check out the examples on the ASC website and such. Supposed to work quite well if the singer's surrounded. Interesting, even the ASC traps have a "treble reflective layer" -- But I guess we're not dealing with flat surfaces afterall! |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 9, 2022 19:33:31 GMT -6
Too bad he didn’t show measurements but as the material is thin and not a membrane it shouldn’t do much for low bass but it would be interesting to know measurements. I think the 18" with 2 inch width insulation traps can reach down to like 60 Hz
I bought 10" traps with 2 inch insulation so it should deal with a lot of low mid and mids. Hoping the diffuser side with the plastic film can be useful too
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2022 19:39:55 GMT -6
Maybe, normally really low bass needs significant thickness of insulation to reduce energy.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 10, 2022 2:21:30 GMT -6
Maybe, normally really low bass needs significant thickness of insulation to reduce energy. ASC claims there's some magic in the way their traps are constructed; some baffling on the inside and some physics all working together to reduce the energy of the low frequencies. I don't know what to say other than my studio changed signficantly just moving two 15" ASC Tube Traps into the room. Not even placing them somewhere relevant - just behind me a couple feet - and the deep lows got better. They're stacked in a corner of my current spot. The room went from anecdotally tough to anecdotally pretty good and predictable. We can observe a phenomenon in which a flat panel placed a few inches off a wall is more effective than a flat panel placed on the wall. Well, a Tube Trap is a combination of a 2" panel with an 18" gap to another 2" panel...and a 3" panel with a whatever-sized gap to another 3" panel (because we're also traveling at an angle through the trap). ASC says that absorption-gap w/baffling-absorption is more effective than the same amount of absorption all together with the gap. A less-engineered version of that design is what Eric Valentine claims made Barefoot usable. Gregory Scott from Kush Audio swears by the Attack Wall design of a bunch of Tube Traps. There just might be something to this design that works really well. I have not idea what it is that makes it work but my room got a lot better just by adding two of them to my already-treated room. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2022 4:58:57 GMT -6
All good. I am not arguing that TT's don't work or that the diy don't do something, just saying it would be good to see some real measurements to see their true effect. I am just curios as after spending 4-6 weeks, tweaking my room absorption based on many many measurement each time I changed anything, it sounds much better and measures much better but like all small rooms, I still have low bass modes and nulls: hard to believe that 2 inches of foam in a cirlce actually solves that problem. The idea that a real TT has some sort of baffle to increase energy cancellation or something like that makes sense and would support their higher cots but I have never seen one taken apart either. So, really I am just curious about low bass solutions and value in terms of their relative costs, as I am still trying to solve ,y rooms bass problem or improve performance below 100hz on the cheap and blowing out a wall or -30 degrees does not seem wise !  |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2022 7:16:53 GMT -6
Interesting:
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Post by yewtreemagic on Feb 10, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6
All good. I am not arguing that TT's don't work or that the diy don't do something, just saying it would be good to see some real measurements to see their true effect. The idea that a real TT has some sort of baffle to increase energy cancellation or something like that makes sense and would support their higher cots but I have never seen one taken apart either. Aha - my sometimes wonky memory hasn't let me down on this occasion - I did see a diagram 20 years ago showing the internal construction of an ASC Tube Trap:   |
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Post by notneeson on Feb 10, 2022 20:45:24 GMT -6
I know...I need to actually probably buy some real ones. Not a sexy $3000 whole-room buy, though. Are you aware of the “super chunk” corner bass trap thing? Basically filling he corners of the room with rock wool cut into triangles and covered with fabric. I have been curious about it for a long time, but never done it. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 11, 2022 15:30:21 GMT -6
I made some super chunks for clients who talked me into recording them in their rehearsal space. Entirely reflective small room, wood floors and plaster walls, no treatment. Not my first time in places like that, so I knew I could make it happen, and I had a bag of 703 leftover from long ago.
Home Depot 1”x3” lumber 4 foot frames, 12” triangles*, 2ftx4ft plywood panel for the tops and bottoms. Dollar tree bread knife(get a cheap electric bread knife! I itched for days) Walmart fabric. I wrapped in shipping cellophane under the fabric to keep the fibers from escaping and breathing them.
the super chunks were impressive! Turned the kick from “boooOOOOoom” to “poomp”. If the room reverb was on a fader, it was like turning it down 12dB+. It felt that dramatic, actually felt more like 18dB.. I didn’t measure though, might have only been 6dB.
I also tested them in my old large untreated living room where my KEFs were. 18 foot ceilings, open floor plan to upstairs with downstairs kitchen rear wall 50 feet back. And I could not believe how much those 2 things helped! Like I could hear “behind” the kefs, things felt very ‘studio’ suddenly. Again lowering room reverb at least 6dB. I really didn’t want to give them away, but I knew my wife wouldn’t let me keep them in there anyway.
*edit: thinking back I think the triangles were actually 24” on hypotenuse.. I didn’t need to measure; made 2 big 24” squares from 24x48 panel, then X on both squares, same on 703. Pretty crude and easy.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 11, 2022 15:39:35 GMT -6
I made some super chunks for some clients who talked me into recording them in their rehearsal space. Entirely reflective small room, wood floors and plaster walls, no treatment. Not my first time in places like that, so I knew I could make it happen, and I had a bag of 703 leftover from long ago. Home Depot 1”x3” lumber 4 foot frames, 12” triangles, 2ftx4ft plywood panel for the tops and bottoms. Dollar tree bread knife(get a cheap electric bread knife! I itched for days) Walmart fabric. I wrapped in shipping cellophane under the fabric to keep the fibers from escaping and breathing them. the super chunks were impressive! Turned the kick from “boooOOOOoom” to “poomp”. If the room reverb was on a fader, it was like turning it down 12dB+. It felt that dramatic, actually felt more like 18dB.. I didn’t measure though, might have only been 6dB. I also tested them in my old large untreated living room where my KEFs were. 18 foot ceilings, open floor plan to upstairs with downstairs kitchen rear wall 50 feet back. And I could not believe how much those 2 things helped! Like I could hear “behind” the kefs, things felt very ‘studio’ suddenly. Again lowering room reverb at least 6dB. I really didn’t want to give them away, but I knew my wife wouldn’t let me keep them in there anyway. That’s super helpful. I’m looking at a small prefab outbuilding/shed to use as my home office/music room. Thinking instead of Sheetrock I will get it installed with the interior unfinished and stuff the frame with rock wool and basically have fabric walls and then super chunks in the corners. Maybe a few plywood panels in certain spots to keep it from getting too dead, not sure. Does not need to be acoustically perfect, but could be quite useful. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 11, 2022 15:45:59 GMT -6
I made some super chunks for some clients who talked me into recording them in their rehearsal space. Entirely reflective small room, wood floors and plaster walls, no treatment. Not my first time in places like that, so I knew I could make it happen, and I had a bag of 703 leftover from long ago. Home Depot 1”x3” lumber 4 foot frames, 12” triangles, 2ftx4ft plywood panel for the tops and bottoms. Dollar tree bread knife(get a cheap electric bread knife! I itched for days) Walmart fabric. I wrapped in shipping cellophane under the fabric to keep the fibers from escaping and breathing them. the super chunks were impressive! Turned the kick from “boooOOOOoom” to “poomp”. If the room reverb was on a fader, it was like turning it down 12dB+. It felt that dramatic, actually felt more like 18dB.. I didn’t measure though, might have only been 6dB. I also tested them in my old large untreated living room where my KEFs were. 18 foot ceilings, open floor plan to upstairs with downstairs kitchen rear wall 50 feet back. And I could not believe how much those 2 things helped! Like I could hear “behind” the kefs, things felt very ‘studio’ suddenly. Again lowering room reverb at least 6dB. I really didn’t want to give them away, but I knew my wife wouldn’t let me keep them in there anyway. That’s super helpful. I’m looking at a small prefab outbuilding/shed to use as my home office/music room. Thinking instead of Sheetrock I will get it installed with the interior unfinished and stuff the frame with rock wool and basically have fabric walls and then super chunks in the corners. Maybe a few plywood panels in certain spots to keep it from getting too dead, not sure. Does not need to be acoustically perfect, but could be quite useful. If you do it, let us follow along! |
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Post by christopher on Feb 11, 2022 15:53:58 GMT -6
Sounds like it will be a great space! With just those 2 traps I was able to do vocals, guitars, drums. I still had an air of liveness, which I wanted, but it was surprisingly workable. And that was with Rode Classic, which seems to add more room than it feels in real life.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 11, 2022 16:30:30 GMT -6
There is hardly any DIY as satisfying as treating a bare room! Super rewarding, immediate gratification!
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