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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 5, 2022 12:03:53 GMT -6
tighten the bass in the room, I.e., make it easier to define?
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Post by Guitar on Feb 5, 2022 12:24:53 GMT -6
tighten the bass in the room, I.e., make it easier to define? I think it depends on the absorption. For example, a typical 2 or 4 inch 703 panel flat to the wall is not going to reach very far into bass trapping frequencies. But if you add some actual "bass traps" that reach down low, specifically, sure yeah I bet that would help. I don't know a lot but I know absorption is not created equally. The thicker it is, and the farther from the boundary it is, the more bass it will trap. There are also specific types of "bass traps" that you can build or buy.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 5, 2022 12:32:43 GMT -6
I know...I need to actually probably buy some real ones. Not a sexy $3000 whole-room buy, though.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 5, 2022 12:53:46 GMT -6
So, the answer is yes , if it is of the right depth and in the right placement and depending on your room's characteristics. I am just finishing off retuning my room and now adding some final membrane low bass absorbers. The two lines green vs red indicating the starting point and where I finished , you can see the red outperforms the green in every graph, meaning absorption works. Bass adds a lot of energy and pressure to the room and depending on the above some notes will stay louder in the room longer than you want. Want we theoretically want is an overall reverb time of rt60, meaning the time it takes all freq to fall 60 db or if you get your reverb time down under 300 ms or lower, your room will likely soon pretty clear. Here are 3 graphs: the first showing frequency response smoothed, more uniform is better, but you will note the big difference is below around 100 cycles. Second graph is showing the rt60 times in ms by 1/3rd octaves, most are pretty good but the lowest notes not so good last graph is called clarity but it is like a measure or direct to indirect sound and you want a line that climbs higher left to right, so this shows which area of frequencies are clearest due to lower indirect sound relative to your direct. all measurements are from my listening position. I am building my final traps to address my null around 100 and the room node around 50, vertical bars on bottom of graph indicate room modes.
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Post by svart on Feb 5, 2022 16:32:19 GMT -6
4" thick absorbers diagonal across the corners will work decently in a pinch.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Feb 5, 2022 16:37:36 GMT -6
4" thick absorbers diagonal across the corners will work decently in a pinch. That's exactly the positioning that was most effective in my tiny studio - 4' by 2' by 4" absorbers mounted vertically across the front vertical corners gave the biggest individual improvement in low-end 'overhang', followed by the same in the rear vertical corners, and then a 4' by 4' ceiling cloud cleaned up the stereo imaging considerably. Smaller improvements with further vertical absorbers mid front and back, and of course at the side reflection points, although the latter can generally be thinner.
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Post by reddirt on Feb 5, 2022 18:03:16 GMT -6
You Know IME, it's very hit and miss - I had and also now have a smallish room and also taught in a prison and followed the 4" across corners approach (with stuffing behind in one case) and it still really didn't fix the bottom end. I tried many more permutations, spent a fair wad over the years , did a lot of work including shifting positions and it's still a crap shoot. It may just be me (and often is) but I would venture that with your heightened sense of audio John , "bits and bobs" is not going to satisfy.
I would be looking at properly targeted membrane absorbers or some such on the advice of a serious acoustician who can look at your dimensions and predict your issues - perhaps to save hooch you can build them yourself once you truly know where and how to start but a well respected based on real world results acoustician would be where i'd start - people like Dr Bill or Eric N could probably recommend that person methinks.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by jcgriggs on Feb 5, 2022 21:20:57 GMT -6
Bass, especially really low bass, involves long wavelengths - in very small rooms, treatment is very difficult. In general, treating corners works best because it knocks down the axial modes that carry most of the energy in that frequency range - broadening them out by damping them smooths the bass response - treating tri-corners where 3 surfaces meet is most effective, followed by corners between 2 surfaces. Fibreglass or similar works nicely for this because it is relatively broadband (and its tendency to over absorb high frequencies can be addressed with facings), but getting enough depth to get low enough in frequency without giving up too much space can be a challenge in small rooms. Resonant approaches like membranes and Helmholz absorbers are harder to design and work with - unless you have money and patience to spare these are probably better purchased than done DIY (unless you can find good plans for a device that fits your requirements pretty precisely).
Also, oddly shaped rooms with lots of corners and alcoves can produce some truly strange effects - if your room is not roughly a parallelogram, getting some proper analysis done to see what you are dealing with would be a good first step.
My $0.02 (Canadian), John
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 5, 2022 21:24:31 GMT -6
This is gonna sound silly, but an open door is a fantastic “bass trap”. So are open windows. Literally anything that the bass can get out of and not return is the best way to get rid of bass issues in a smallish room. Whether or not it’s possible to work that way is another issue, but it does work.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 6, 2022 11:22:37 GMT -6
This is gonna sound silly, but an open door is a fantastic “bass trap”. So are open windows. Literally anything that the bass can get out of and not return is the best way to get rid of bass issues in a smallish room. Whether or not it’s possible to work that way is another issue, but it does work. I usually mix with the control room door open. And I have 4 2x4 and 4 2x2 Real Traps. And could probably add more.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 6, 2022 12:59:52 GMT -6
tighten the bass in the room, I.e., make it easier to define?
If you build big broadband absorbers with insulation, 6000 rayls flow resistance you can kill a lot of base problems. If you make a housing around them with some slots, they only work in the low range.
In my room I did all corners and yes it tightness in the low range a lot. Most people underrate what they can do with housed insulation broadband absorbers. They really kill low-end trouble in rooms.
This is one of my DIY broadband base corner absorbers.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2022 15:55:27 GMT -6
mrholmes off center here but I love your studio mojo, those photos and that "up to 11" engraving, really nice!!
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 6, 2022 23:00:14 GMT -6
mrholmes off center here but I love your studio mojo, those photos and that "up to 11" engraving, really nice!! Off center meaning off topic? He asked about better low end definition? That’s what you can get with my 50 x 50 cm base traps from bottom floor to the ceiling traps. Did it in all four corners. It’s physically impossible to overtrap the low end. The more corners someone covers, the tighter will get the low end definition. I once had true LEDE room and the low end was + - 3 db. But the room was really dead and had no daylight at all. Much better now…. I love to work in my space. Stile? Yes the older I get the more personality gets my workplace. You see both of my grandfathers. Left WW2 in Afrika right Happy back from war prison 1952. Both had only good things to say about British and US American soldiers. Some friendships were born.
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 6, 2022 23:02:12 GMT -6
tighten the bass in the room, I.e., make it easier to define? Depends on what you mean by "bass", and by how deep your absorbers are, but broadly speaking, yes-ish.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 6, 2022 23:16:11 GMT -6
Yes. The caveat is "how much room do you have and how much are you willing to sacrifice?"
Here's a good place to start. His whole channel is really helpful, though. Also, check out the video about air gaps behind panels; you can make a lot of headway into your low end if you move your "not ideally thick" panels a little further from the wall.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 7, 2022 6:36:33 GMT -6
Yes. The caveat is "how much room do you have and how much are you willing to sacrifice?" Here's a good place to start. His whole channel is really helpful, though. Also, check out the video about air gaps behind panels; you can make a lot of headway into your low end if you move your "not ideally thick" panels a little further from the wall. A super simple hack I added to my DIY panels to get them off the wall was to buy a bunch of those cheap 3” screw in door stops and screw them into my frames. That way when i hung them, they were all a uniform distance off the wall.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 7, 2022 6:57:47 GMT -6
Are your panels open back ?
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 7, 2022 8:01:43 GMT -6
yes they are open back except for the small, rectangular wood frame that gives the 703 some support. I screwed the doorstops into the frame.
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Post by drumsound on Feb 7, 2022 8:47:32 GMT -6
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> yes they are open back except for the small, rectangular wood frame that gives the 703 some support. I screwed the doorstops into the frame. That's a great idea.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 7, 2022 8:55:10 GMT -6
Occasionally my head is used for something other than a hat rack.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 7, 2022 9:17:07 GMT -6
mrholmes off center here but I love your studio mojo, those photos and that "up to 11" engraving, really nice!! Off center meaning off topic? He asked about better low end definition? That’s what you can get with my 50 x 50 cm base traps from bottom floor to the ceiling traps. Did it in all four corners. It’s physically impossible to overtrap the low end. The more corners someone covers, the tighter will get the low end definition. I once had true LEDE room and the low end was + - 3 db. But the room was really dead and had no daylight at all. Much better now…. I love to work in my space. Stile? Yes the older I get the more personality gets my workplace. You see both of my grandfathers. Left WW2 in Afrika right Happy back from war prison 1952. Both had only good things to say about British and US American soldiers. Some friendships were born. Yes the style! Love it. I didn't mean your post was off topic, I meant mine was!
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Post by mcirish on Feb 7, 2022 10:17:44 GMT -6
Like everyone has said, I don't think there could ever be too much bass trapping. In my studio, on the front wall, I have (2) 3"x24"x8' panels that are off the wall by 3" and separated by 3" as well. Those are in the corners; diagonal and go from the floor to the ceiling. I also have many other traps including 6" panels that cover the wall/ceiling joint. All of these help tighten the bass quite a bit. If I had a giant room, I'd do a lot more to that front wall. In addition, I have a cloud and at least 50% of the wall area has 3" of OC703. The floors are laminate. No carpeting. The room sounds nice acoustically but controls reflections and absorbs some of the bass. I made all the traps myself, roughly based on a GIK panel I had.
I know most everyone knows this here, but room treatment is even more important than the monitor choice.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 7, 2022 15:43:43 GMT -6
[...] I know most everyone knows this here, but room treatment is even more important than the monitor choice. Unless the monitoring choice is between actual monitors and two tin cans with string.
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Post by plinker on Feb 7, 2022 21:14:27 GMT -6
[...] I know most everyone knows this here, but room treatment is even more important than the monitor choice. Unless the monitoring choice is between actual monitors and two tin cans with string. Now, no reason to start dissing NS10s again...
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2022 0:59:57 GMT -6
[...] I know most everyone knows this here, but room treatment is even more important than the monitor choice. Unless the monitoring choice is between actual monitors and two tin cans with string. I won't settle for anything less than Mogami string.
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