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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 9:37:28 GMT -6
I'm in the process of shooting out the Coil CA-70S and Weight Tank WT-72 with my REDD. I'm recording in Reaper 24/96 with the Svartbox for my interface (previously just used my RME Multiface II for everything). What I'm hearing on playback from Reaper aligns with what I hear in my phones when recording. However, when I render I'm losing clarity in the result. A softer tone that has a noticable loss of detail in the vocal especially (using a simple acoustic guitar arrangement). Either I never noticed that before, or I'm doing something wrong now. Doesn't matter if I render to 96/48/44.1, they're all impacted the same. And it's still noticeable even if I import the rendered file back into Reaper, so it's not just my Windows desktop player. Tried both online and offline renders. I can list my render settings if that will help, but thought I'd see first if any of you Reaper users have recommendations on what you use/what works. Wondering if this a dithering issue? (I'll stop there or I will reveal even more of my inexperience!  ) Thanks for any feedback. |
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2022 9:45:23 GMT -6
I'm in the process of shooting out the Coil CA-70S and Weight Tank WT-72 with my REDD. I'm recording in Reaper 24/96 with the Svartbox for my interface (previously just used my RME Multiface II for everything). What I'm hearing on playback from Reaper aligns with what I hear in my phones when recording. However, when I render I'm losing clarity in the result. A softer tone that has a noticable loss of detail in the vocal especially (using a simple acoustic guitar arrangement). Either I never noticed that before, or I'm doing something wrong now. Doesn't matter if I render to 96/48/44.1, they're all impacted the same. And it's still noticeable even if I import the rendered file back into Reaper, so it's not just my Windows desktop player. Tried both online and offline renders. I can list my render settings if that will help, but thought I'd see first if any of you Reaper users have recommendations on what you use/what works. Wondering if this a dithering issue? (I'll stop there or I will reveal even more of my inexperience!  ) Thanks for any feedback. I've had this issue before. It was a setting, but I can't remember what. Setting to online render fixed it initially, but I have since gone back to full speed offline and it no longer has the issue. Also, rendering to MP3 directly in Reaper has had it's share of bugs. The way I do it now is full speed offline render to 88.2K/24 and then use the "batch converter" to convert to MP3 rather than do a direct or secondary MP3 conversion in the render window. For some reason Reaper doesn't like to do direct MP3 conversions during rendering for me. Probably another setting but I usually render a bunch of WAVs and then do a big batch convert to MP3 later anyway. At one point if you rendered to MP3 and then went back to do a WAV, the WAV sounded strange. Please post a screenshot of your render settings. I don't dither since my WAV render output is at the same samplerate that I track and mix in. I rarely render to 16/44.1 anymore as well since people don't do CDs anymore. |
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2022 9:49:58 GMT -6
Also, make sure there are no monitoring effects enabled or that you're not getting your master hardware output pre-effects or something.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 26, 2022 10:03:03 GMT -6
I’d bus everything to a print track and monitor that track while you are printing.
I know I’m in the minority here but I NEVER trust the render. I always want to listen to the entire track while I’m printing to make sure I’m hearing what I’m getting.
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Post by urkirka on Jan 26, 2022 10:45:07 GMT -6
Same experience here, Reaper rendering was always sketchy to me in 96k.
What is the bitrate and format you render to, and what resample mode?
The best solution i've found was to render in WAV 32FP, and do the conversion and dithering outside of Reaper. (i recommend SoX, but there are probably other good ones).
No practical difference in project and final result with this method, to my ears.
I have a SoX-script in the same folder as the 32FP render, and i double click it and it takes two seconds to convert. "WAV to 48/16_FLAC ", "WAV to MP3".
Reaper recently got an updated sample rate conversion algorithm but the issue with rendering still exists.
I wonder how many people got fucked up renders because of Reaper and just didn't notice.
Edit: Also make sure that you don't have any plugins that only activates oversampling/HQ on render. Tokyo Dawn plugins have the possibility of running high oversampling on render, which might reduce aliasing and make the sound less exciting/sharp/bright/upfront.
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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 11:25:50 GMT -6
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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 11:55:26 GMT -6
I’d bus everything to a print track and monitor that track while you are printing. I know I’m in the minority here but I NEVER trust the render. I always want to listen to the entire track while I’m printing to make sure I’m hearing what I’m getting. So forgive my ignorance here, Jeremy. If I print to another track, that is still in the same 24/96 format and still in native Reaper format as well, correct? So I'd still need to render or do some type of conversion to get that printed version into .wav or .mp3 format, including a lower resolution like 24/48. Am I understanding? |
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Post by notneeson on Jan 26, 2022 12:19:09 GMT -6
I’d bus everything to a print track and monitor that track while you are printing. I know I’m in the minority here but I NEVER trust the render. I always want to listen to the entire track while I’m printing to make sure I’m hearing what I’m getting. So forgive my ignorance here, Jeremy. If I print to another track, that is still in the same 24/96 format and still in native Reaper format as well, correct? So I'd still need to render or do some type of conversion to get that printed version into .wav or .mp3 format, including a lower resolution like 24/48. Am I understanding? What is native Reaper format if not WAV or AIFF? |
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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 12:44:25 GMT -6
So forgive my ignorance here, Jeremy. If I print to another track, that is still in the same 24/96 format and still in native Reaper format as well, correct? So I'd still need to render or do some type of conversion to get that printed version into .wav or .mp3 format, including a lower resolution like 24/48. Am I understanding? What is native Reaper format if not WAV or AIFF? My bad. Was focused on the reapeaks files. Thank you for the correction. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 26, 2022 13:04:32 GMT -6
I’d bus everything to a print track and monitor that track while you are printing. I know I’m in the minority here but I NEVER trust the render. I always want to listen to the entire track while I’m printing to make sure I’m hearing what I’m getting. So forgive my ignorance here, Jeremy. If I print to another track, that is still in the same 24/96 format and still in native Reaper format as well, correct? So I'd still need to render or do some type of conversion to get that printed version into .wav or .mp3 format, including a lower resolution like 24/48. Am I understanding? There should be a way to just export the .wav print file. I have never used Reaper though. In pro tools you just select the wav form and hit shift/Apple/K And it brings up a prompt that allows you to put the file wherever you want it and what format etc. Having your print in the actual session is a life saver though. Every time I open a mix session I do a “save as” , rename the session, and name the print track the same as the session. I’ve gone through rounds of recalls only to have the band get together and even though we may be on recall #5 they now prefer recall #3 and want to make a change to that one. So now, I go to that session, check my notes and recall my mix gear, switch back and forth between input and the print track to get it sounding exactly the same, and away we go. If I didn’t have that reference point I’d spend a lot of time chasing my tail. Organization is key and it saves my ass all the time. |
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 26, 2022 13:09:17 GMT -6
This is interesting....I use Reaper and have never noticed any issues with my rendering. There is a great Reaper user group on Facebook, and also a dedicated forum online. Maybe try posting there and see if you get any feedback. Curious as to how this pans out. Like I said, I've never had an issue (that I noticed anyway) when rendering, but maybe I need to look/listen a little closer!
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 26, 2022 13:17:17 GMT -6
I’ve absolutely experienced this and it definitely freaked me out. Jeremy’s solution is what I do now. Thankfully, it’s actually super easy to do this in Reaper — just create a folder track for all of the tracks in your project, send the output of the folder track to a new track that’s NOT in the folder, set the new track’s record mode to “record output: stereo,” arm for recording, and print.
If you have any plugins on the master track, you would need to move them to the folder to track to have that processing applied to the print.
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2022 13:33:49 GMT -6
What version of Reaper are you using? The render screenshot looks like an older version. You should download the newest version first.
Also, uncheck "Use project sample rate for mixing and fx/synth processing" as I think it forces a low sample rate on plugs that should be using oversampling and such.
Otherwise, you could send me the folder of the RPP and the tracks you are trying to render and I can open it and see if I notice anything wrong.
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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 13:36:38 GMT -6
Tried printing to a bus. Better, but still have the same issue with that. All tracks other than music, effects, and the vocal are muted. Even tried printing just the vocal and when comparing there is a loss of detail on the printed version. So I'm guessing either I'm missing something settings-wise, or my machine is causing the issue.
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2022 13:37:00 GMT -6
So forgive my ignorance here, Jeremy. If I print to another track, that is still in the same 24/96 format and still in native Reaper format as well, correct? So I'd still need to render or do some type of conversion to get that printed version into .wav or .mp3 format, including a lower resolution like 24/48. Am I understanding? There should be a way to just export the .wav print file. I have never used Reaper though. In pro tools you just select the wav form and hit shift/Apple/K And it brings up a prompt that allows you to put the file wherever you want it and what format etc. Having your print in the actual session is a life saver though. Every time I open a mix session I do a “save as” , rename the session, and name the print track the same as the session. I’ve gone through rounds of recalls only to have the band get together and even though we may be on recall #5 they now prefer recall #3 and want to make a change to that one. So now, I go to that session, check my notes and recall my mix gear, switch back and forth between input and the print track to get it sounding exactly the same, and away we go. If I didn’t have that reference point I’d spend a lot of time chasing my tail. Organization is key and it saves my ass all the time. Yeah, I do this too. Figured it was pretty much a standard practice. If you look at the dialog box that TeeJay posted there's a checkbox for "add rendered items to new tracks in project" which does this automatically for you. |
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Post by urkirka on Jan 26, 2022 13:47:30 GMT -6
Try render 32FP WAV and not 24bit PCM. Or, do both and compare them.
32FP WAV should be identical to what you hear inside Reaper.
I'll share my basic conversion script for anyone interested.
It is the fastest method to get this right i think, no need for bussing and all that.
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Post by teejay on Jan 26, 2022 14:33:15 GMT -6
Appreciate all of the great feedback and ideas. I'll do some due diligence tonight to see if I can resolve this based on the info here. And may send you the folder, svart, just to see. I'll also upgrade. I am on an older version, but didn't want to disrupt anything so I've been holding off.
My Multiface II is a great interface, but the svartbox just took things up a notch. I'm wondering if this was happening all along but was less noticable because I didn't quite have the sonic integrity on the MFII that I now have with the svartbox.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 26, 2022 20:41:31 GMT -6
This is fascinating. I have used Reaper since 2008 and haven't encountered this unless I can't hear it. Is it possible for you to upload after you get it sorted so we can hear the degraded version? Would like to know what to look out for.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2022 22:54:21 GMT -6
1. Insert a dither as your last insert on the master or your monitoring fx. Goodhertz Good Dither is 20 bones and the best one I've found. 24 bit, highest amount of dither (not OPTIMAL), no noiseshaping. Free detail and depth boost. I also like PSP's X-Dither but the Goodhertz plug is better. Zero latency. Better GUI.
2. Old issue that's to do with how Reaper resampled. I still did masters that way. Update Reaper. Shift+Enter, use r8brain from Voxengo. Improves quality. Now, with the dither for playback, has perfect resampling like Cubase and Ableton. Your playback and rendering should improve.
3. Freeze your tracks to 32-bit or 64-bit float too in the shift+enter menu. It still matters.
4. Make sure you playback with clean player software. Different media players sound and measure different. Some have buffer issues. I prefer J-River with no clip protection, loading the entire audio file into ram, jriver's volume control disabled, TPDF dither or Goodhertz Good Dither as a VST2 insert. Often what you are hearing is the player messing with the audio. Foobar 2k is popular yet messes with the sound audibly and on a scope. iTunes does it's own thing, especially on Windows. MusicBee too.
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Post by teejay on Jan 27, 2022 8:16:59 GMT -6
I do have Goodhertz and will try that. (Appreciate the other suggestions, Dan, and will try those as well.) Before I upgraded Reaper last night Goodhertz was crashing Reaper when I tried to insert it. Haven't had a chance to try it since the upgrade. Note: Reaper 6.x is loading WAY slower than my old version, so I may have to look at going back down to 5. Always thought it was pretty light, but it may have outpaced my machine now.
I also tried direct cable patching the outputs to the inputs on the Svartbox and recorded a print that way. Much closer, but still some slight degradation. Really frustrating because the captured vocals sound great, and I need to figure out how to maintain that coming out both for the integrity of the sound, as well as knowing any mixing done will be accurate in the end result.
I'll look at how I can upload some clip comparisons for everyone to hear.
Thanks again for all of the assistance here.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Jan 27, 2022 9:03:26 GMT -6
This could be a stupid question, but have you tried importing your printed mixes into your Reaper session and checking how much they null? If there are differences in the printed versions, a null test will reveal what the differences are.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2022 9:22:48 GMT -6
I'm going to go back and state that there is no reason to be doing all the fancy stuff people are suggesting. Reaper should not be outputting something that sounds different than what your monitoring is telling you. I've been working in Reaper since 2006 and I have only come across the "sounds different when rendered" once and it was a setting of some kind that unfortunately I don't remember.
Lets not get TeeJay off on tangents here. If the rendered track is different enough to be easily heard, then its not a matter of whether the stock dither is good enough or not, or whatever. It's either a routing issue, or a rendering setting of some type.
TeeJay, do you think you can post the files so myself and/or others can take a look and render out on our systems to see if we have the same issues?
Also, you might try freezing the tracks that have effects on them and then rendering to see if render is having trouble with one or more plugins.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 27, 2022 10:47:15 GMT -6
Agree with all that. There is no reason why Reaper itself should have any issues with rendering, and any extra steps to achieve a render that matches the quality of your tracks seems like extra work that you shouldn't need to do.
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Post by teejay on Jan 27, 2022 11:13:34 GMT -6
I'll grab the native vocal/track .wav files out of the Reaper folder. I can post them up on Dropbox for download if that works, or happy to Wetransfer them to anyone who wants them. Just email me at: packerfans4@sbcglobal.net
I had a number of vocal tracks in the original session as I am experimenting with settings on the Coil. Saved as a new project and removed everything but one of the vocals from the Coil, and the vocal from the WT-72. Meticulously went through all of the routing to be sure I didn't have something "on" or routing in one of the tracks or on the master that I was missing.) Besides the vocal, there's only the acoustic guitar stereo track and one effects bus with Seventh Heaven on it running a little bit of plate reverb. I'll post the vocal and track.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2022 12:05:26 GMT -6
Yeah, just put it up on dropbox if you don't mind and I'll grab it when I can this afternoon.
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