|
Post by M57 on Jan 10, 2022 14:27:08 GMT -6
No doubt this topic has come up before, but I can't find it. Up until now, I've only used the Logic drummer ..or real drummers, but I'd like to be able to create better drum/percussion tracks in the studio, either for keepers, or to better guide a real drummer that may play on the tune down the line. Either way, I want something that does more than put the kick on the down beat and create a back beat every time you turn on the snare ..and have things like brushes that actually stir, and cymbals with round robin samples that change pitch slightly because they never get hit the same.. You know, I want my fake real ..and what about all these loop libraries of name players? Are they MIDI based so you can edit them? I know, pretty newbie questions, right? If I want to dip my toe in the water, where should I start? Is SD3 still THE drum program? Will I need to be careful not to fall into the SD3 extension rabbit hole, or is it possible I can find what I need with maybe one or two extensions? Does it have extensions that play other types of drums and ethnic grooves, etc? What are the alternatives? Kontakt? What are you all using?
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 10, 2022 14:37:03 GMT -6
I'm using Superior Drummer 3 almost exclusively, when I'm not recording my real drums. For percussion, it gets no better than Shimmer Shake Strike (Kontakt insrument) from In Session Audio. I feel a bit spoiled by these programs. Highly recommended. I think ragan would have something to say about these also. I start my songs with percussion loops (SSS), then play "real drums" on my e-kit with SD3. Or you can "write" a percussion loop and leave it in your project, obviously. My real drums are getting a little dusty, I feel like an electronic production machine. But fear not, they're still miked up and ready to play and record.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Jan 10, 2022 16:00:59 GMT -6
I have EZ Drummer2 (precursor to superior drummer) and then also some loops from Beta Monkey and Loop Loft. I use them just to keep a groove and then actually get Tony ( drumsound) to play live drums to my scratch tracks and then build out the songs from the live drums. I probably should get SSS though bc it could probably keep time with some “swing” just easily.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 10, 2022 16:40:17 GMT -6
Another plug for Superior Drummer, it is the best I've had the pleasure of using, especially with the add on sounds. I own Rooms of Hansa and Legacy of Rock and I really want Fields of Rock.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jan 10, 2022 19:50:32 GMT -6
I have Kontakt because I recently purchased a Spitfire String Library, so I decided to start with Shimmer Shake Strike. I'll play with that for a while. Right off the bat it seems pretty intuitive. Thanks Guitar
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 11, 2022 0:29:16 GMT -6
SD3 is really an amazing tool. It's a playground. There's stuff I like better about acoustic drums, but SD3 let's me track keeper drums in silence and then play with mics and combinations to my heart's content.
|
|
|
Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jan 11, 2022 1:23:08 GMT -6
I have used everything (I have an obsession with drum software). SD3 is the be all end all of drum software. I have always liked SSD for what I do as well, but SD3 as an instrument and composition tool is the best.
|
|
|
Post by Steamy Williams on Jan 11, 2022 6:11:03 GMT -6
I really wish you didn't have to buy the core library from Massenburg before you can use the SDX expansions. I'm specifically interested in The Rooms of Hansa, but not the Massenburg library.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jan 11, 2022 9:28:27 GMT -6
Regarding SD3, I'm not a drummer, don't have an electronic kit and I don't have pads on my keyboard, just regular keys. The reviews I'm reading are mostly by drummers who trigger their VI kits into it. Is it user friendly for a non-drummer? Does it have any AI components like Logic's drummer?
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Jan 11, 2022 9:34:30 GMT -6
For doing demos, I use Addictive Drums. Long ago, I used BFD, but that was always troublesome. I have not had any troubles with Addictive Drums and would recommend it. For the final studio versions of songs, I use real drums with a drummer. Addictive Drums is quite a bit less frustrating... :-)
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 11, 2022 10:21:54 GMT -6
Regarding SD3, I'm not a drummer, don't have an electronic kit and I don't have pads on my keyboard, just regular keys. The reviews I'm reading are mostly by drummers who trigger their VI kits into it. Is it user friendly for a non-drummer? Does it have any AI components like Logic's drummer? Yes, I'm a non-drummer, and I think it's largely wonderful to work with. It comes with tons of MIDI loops played by real drummers, and every expansion you buy comes with more. You can also buy MIDI expansions on their own for cheap. There's also a "building blocks" area of the MIDI browser, where if you know you want the kick on "1" and "the-and-of-2" you can grab that pattern and drag it into your arrange page in your DAW, and build your entire drum performance that way. (And everything is quite playable from a MIDI keyboard, too.) My critique of the MIDI loops in general is that the vast majority of them are too busy and too particular for my taste. IMO, the loops seem to be created by drummers to excite other drummers, rather than created by drummers to assist band leaders or songwriters. Having said that, I think every pack I've bought over the last 11 years has had something useful in it - I'm nearly always able to find something to work from. And I like some of the drummers more than others, just like in real life. Overall, you can get it to sound very convincing. Count on spending a few days getting familiar with the workflow, and it'll pay off in spades. Once you know how to use it, it's pretty damn fast. I used to beta test for Toontrack years ago, and I will say this: They are very passionate about what they do. Even in the places where my tastes differ from their overall aesthetic, I'm incredibly impressed with the level of detail and professionalism they bring to their products.
|
|
shawnh
Junior Member
Posts: 58
|
Post by shawnh on Jan 11, 2022 10:39:57 GMT -6
My critique of the MIDI loops in general is that the vast majority of them are too busy and too particular for my taste. IMO, the loops seem to be created by drummers to excite other drummers, rather than created by drummers to assist band leaders or songwriters. The edit play style feature is really slick and easy for dialing back MIDI loops that are too busy:
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 11, 2022 10:41:04 GMT -6
Regarding SD3, I'm not a drummer, don't have an electronic kit and I don't have pads on my keyboard, just regular keys. The reviews I'm reading are mostly by drummers who trigger their VI kits into it. Is it user friendly for a non-drummer? Does it have any AI components like Logic's drummer? I play drums (not especially well but have played drums in bands etc.) and I actually think my experience recording and editing drums (and midi) is more valuable here than playing them. If you already know how to use a DAW and a midi editor it is very simple to learn. Also, the midi files that Toontrack sells for their product are the best I've encountered. My only gripe is they tend to be a little overplayed but that just means I need to clone the simpler part of the groove for however many bars I need it, or maybe take out a note here and there. Easy stuff if you have edited midi before.
|
|
|
Post by studio54 on Jan 11, 2022 10:41:53 GMT -6
I've used EZ Drummer and currently use SD3 extensively. I am not a drummer -- I use it exclusively for drum sounds in my productions using MIDI groove libraries. The OP asked if it was "user friendly." I'd say "yes," but also that it is a complex program that takes a while to learn. It is very easy to find a MIDI groove and flip through various kits as a starting point. The software allows the user to alter the grooves by adding more/less of a certain piece of the kit in the way that a real drummer might. So, if you find a groove you generally like, but want less hi-hat and louder toms -- very easy to do that by turning a few knobs. Sometimes making these quick and easy changes gets you where you want to be. But, sometimes it takes a deeper dive into manually changing the MIDI groove to get there. That's just the nature of using MIDI grooves,though.
It's complexity is also its source of flexibility. It has an on-board sub-mixer for the drums that allows for effects to be applied to any part of the kit, allows the user to route various parts of the kit to or away from certain mic channels, allows for complex routing, etc. That can all be a bit overwhelming to figure out. That said, Toontrack provides a large selection of "preset" starting points for each kit or combinations of kits that can be very inspiring and interesting. You can learn quite a bit about how to get certain drum sounds by loading a preset and then reverse engineering how those sounds were created by looking at the effects/routing in the drum submixer.
As a non-drummer relying on SD to get me the drum sounds I want, I can make it work. I don't always end up with the sound inside my head -- I have to work within the limits of the software. I do end up with something that sounds good, though. Of note, my approach to using SD3 is to get the kit, groove, and general drum submix I want inside the SD3 software. It's a starting point -- just like tracking real drums. Once I've got the basic sounds and levels, I route that into my DAW and process there. I don't "mix" drums inside SD3 because you end up losing too much control later during mix down. Plus, the hardware and plugins I use to process drums during mixdown are better than the plugins inside the SD3 mixer.
Feel free to ask more questions. It's kind of a beast.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 11, 2022 11:03:05 GMT -6
My critique of the MIDI loops in general is that the vast majority of them are too busy and too particular for my taste. IMO, the loops seem to be created by drummers to excite other drummers, rather than created by drummers to assist band leaders or songwriters. The edit play style feature is really slick and easy for dialing back MIDI loops that are too busy: I’ve never touched any of the MIDI grooves but that’s cool
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2022 3:29:40 GMT -6
Re: easier than Logic Drummer, for me that’s a no I had sd3 and sold it. The Ai of Drummer for me was much more sophisticated than SD3, in that I can but don’t need to actually edit midi loops, I just manipulate the AI. Being able to lock drummer to the bass part, motivates me to try to play really good bass parts as drummer will lock to that groove. Building drummer parts by arrangement section creates natural variation, like a real drummer. I also found more problems exporting Drummer midi file to sd3 more problematic than doing same with Slate drums, but it’s not perfect either. Also wish with sd3, you didn’t have to buy the core packs. But if I was buying a Roland kit like Ragan and Wiz, I think I would rebuy SD3, as their tracks and mixes sound great.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jan 12, 2022 7:19:58 GMT -6
Re: easier than Logic Drummer, for me that’s a no I had sd3 and sold it. The Ai of Drummer for me was much more sophisticated than SD3, in that I can but don’t need to actually edit midi loops, I just manipulate the AI. Being able to lock drummer to the bass part, motivates me to try to play really good bass parts as drummer will lock to that groove. Building drummer parts by arrangement section creates natural variation, like a real drummer. I also found more problems exporting Drummer midi file to sd3 more problematic than doing same with Slate drums, but it’s not perfect either. Also wish with sd3, you didn’t have to buy the core packs. But if I was buying a Roland kit like Ragan and Wiz, I think I would rebuy SD3, as their tracks and mixes sound great. You say that you have to buy "core packs?" What does that mean? What do you, or don't you get with your initial purchase? As for ease of use, I fully expect SD3 to be more complicated than Drummer. There's no question that Drummer's AI makes for easy fast work with the x/y matrix and all, but there are a limited number of player choices within every genre. Same for Drummer's library of fills for my favorite players. Once I've heard a particular fill, I feel like I have to avoid it when I come across it again (on future songs). There are workarounds for sure. Convert to MIDI and edit is one of them. I'm sure I'll continue to use Drummer, but I need alternatives. I do like the idea of expansion packs, which raises the question. Does SD3 allow or license third party expansion packs or is everything proprietary?
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2022 7:41:41 GMT -6
Core, I think people just mean the original Library sd3 comes with .
Well, every program will not be infinite, with Drummer, you can always move it to midi and edit or program.
When I do that I make a copy of drummer so the original track is always there.
I think all these programs are good, they just have different attributes.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 12, 2022 8:21:46 GMT -6
Re: easier than Logic Drummer, for me that’s a no I had sd3 and sold it. The Ai of Drummer for me was much more sophisticated than SD3, in that I can but don’t need to actually edit midi loops, I just manipulate the AI. Being able to lock drummer to the bass part, motivates me to try to play really good bass parts as drummer will lock to that groove. Building drummer parts by arrangement section creates natural variation, like a real drummer. I also found more problems exporting Drummer midi file to sd3 more problematic than doing same with Slate drums, but it’s not perfect either. Also wish with sd3, you didn’t have to buy the core packs. But if I was buying a Roland kit like Ragan and Wiz, I think I would rebuy SD3, as their tracks and mixes sound great. You say that you have to buy "core packs?" What does that mean? What do you, or don't you get with your initial purchase? As for ease of use, I fully expect SD3 to be more complicated than Drummer. There's no question that Drummer's AI makes for easy fast work with the x/y matrix and all, but there are a limited number of player choices within every genre. Same for Drummer's library of fills for my favorite players. Once I've heard a particular fill, I feel like I have to avoid it when I come across it again (on future songs). There are workarounds for sure. Convert to MIDI and edit is one of them. I'm sure I'll continue to use Drummer, but I need alternatives. I do like the idea of expansion packs, which raises the question. Does SD3 allow or license third party expansion packs or is everything proprietary? They’re proprietary, but they’re really really good. Now that said, I’m talking drum sounds. You can pull in MIDI from Slate or whoever if you own it, MIDI is designed to be universal as you no doubt know. “Decades” is another one the crew here really seems to love. For me the core library is impressive but Hansa and the Eddie Kramer rock thing have more character. The room they did Core in is so linear it almost sounds like digital reverb. The Hansa ambience is much more colorful, for example. But you could make a record with Core, no doubt. Being a picky bastard is just part of my process.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 12, 2022 9:33:41 GMT -6
I have yet to use the Massenburg/Core library on any project. I can't deal with that comical cathedral sound glued to everything. The other stuff is awesome. Decades, the Eddie Kramer, Hansa, Fields of Rock. Some older stuff is awesome too. I've always dug Indiependent (recorded at a studio I often rent gear from, Avast! Recording). Some of the older stuff has great sounds in it too. Custom and Vintage, Southern Soul, UK Pop. I do a lot of blending and layering of kits. It's a playground.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 12, 2022 10:10:48 GMT -6
I do like the idea of expansion packs, which raises the question. Does SD3 allow or license third party expansion packs or is everything proprietary? There is only one expansion pack made by a third party, and it’s no longer available: Evil Drums by Joe Barresi for Platinum Samples. It was a bit of an experiment on Toontrack’s part to help Platinum Samples convert that pack of theirs into Toontrack format. If it had sold well, they were going to help them convert more packs. It didn’t sell well. I actually have that pack, and every year or so I get a random request from someone asking if I’ll sell it. I’ve always declined in the past, but this might be the year I do it. I haven’t used that pack in a long time. Also, just so you know, SD3 can also use expansion packs from EZDrummer. Sometimes those are really great. I love UK Pop and Post Rock, among others.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2022 10:42:34 GMT -6
Legacy of Rock and Hansa have been all I've put on my new computer.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 12, 2022 10:57:27 GMT -6
I'm just hacking together kits from the core Massenburg library, usually dialing out all the room mics. I've been making it work.
Those Gretsch Round Badge toms sound really good to me. The Noble Cooley solid maple snare is usually what I start with. And the Ayotte kick drum. But snare/kick and sometimes ride cymbal will get switched depending on the song.
I need to buy some more expansions. The only one I have is Custom and Vintage and it's usefulness is limited. I use some of the snares from it once in a while.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jan 12, 2022 11:25:13 GMT -6
I'm more interested in playing styles than kits. I'm not much of a connoisseur of shells ..unless they have seafood in them, though I have been known to swap them out until I find the one that speaks to me, then maybe tweak its pitch or adjust the dampening, etc.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 12, 2022 14:17:03 GMT -6
I'm more interested in playing styles than kits. I'm not much of a connoisseur of shells ..unless they have seafood in them, though I have been known to swap them out until I find the one that speaks to me, then maybe tweak its pitch or adjust the dampening, etc. I’m with you in theory, I don’t really care about different drum shell flavors. But, like in Hansa, the acoustics of the different spaces are hugely impactful on getting the sound to compliment the playing style. That’s what makes the spend worthwhile for me.
|
|